Patriotism and communism

[Red_or_Dead]

Recently Ive read an interesting article in a magazine, that made me rethink my entire opinion on patriotism. The author claimed that some patriotism is necesary for the existance of any community, because any community needs at least some level of connection between its members, and it works much better if its members feel like they are a part of the community as a whole. This "patriotism" that he describes is NOT based on ethnic, religious, racial, or any similar backround, its merely a sense of belonging to a particular community, be it a state, municipality, or whatever.

Im inclined to agree with him, and I think it opens up a new question for me: can one be a communist and a patriot at the same time? Of course, Im not talking about being patriotic in ethnic, religious or racial sense. Im not talking about being proud of my land (which I am not) or any of the crap that you might hear from your average right-winger. What Im talking about is simply feeling belongingness (is that even a word? Well, I think you all know what I mean) to my community, and the awerenes that its in my interest that my community is doing well. Of course that includes criticism when I think that something is wrong with the community, and working to change the things that are wrong. I am a communist myself, so I dont think I need to explain what I think those changes should be.

So... The question: can communism and patriotism go together?

[Dros]

No.

Communism encourages internationalism which means breaking free of these superficial divisions caused by the state. Communism can be described as freely associating community of human beings and that will be what "holds us together."

[jake williams]

Well if you define "patriotism" basically out of existence, then I would think so, but even the merits and downsides of what you're suggesting are complex, and not entirely clear.

[ecoTROTSKYIST]

Sup comrades :D
Obviously one of the things Marxists fight for is the abolishment of all nations-or rather the establishment of a single nation.
So in communism the individual is free to feel personal, rather than national, pride, to develop themselves as human beings and further the progression of humanity, not of their country.
But yes, if u define patriotism as a sense of pride in community then there is nothing wrong with that. I think that it’s important to distinguish between patriotism and nationalism-which are not that separate in capitalist societies.
Later comrades :p

[Cryotank Screams]

can communism and patriotism go together?

They're diametrically opposite so no.

[VukBZ2005]

What needs to be understood is the fact that human beings, throughout the history of their existence, have shown a marked tendency to be proud of the societies, cultures, economies and polities that they came from, or, that their ancestors came from, and, it is because of that fact that the concept that all of you disdain, the concept of patriotism, will always exist, even in a reality in which humans are not artificially divided by the boundaries of Capitalist nation-states.

However, it must also be clarified that the concept of patriotism is not concurrent with the ideology of Nationalism, which promotes the division of humans into various ethnic groups with defined nation-states that are in control of their own social, cultural, economical and political destiny, a ideology that necessarily inhibits the development of the State, that necessarily inhibits the development of Capitalism, that necessarily inhibits the development of Xenophobia, and, that necessarily inhibits the development of Racism.

Thus, if we were to deny all of this, then, all we are doing is just to deny the fact that we are a species that form attachments to certain objects, whether they be animate or inanimate, which is absolutely ridiculous.

[black magick hustla]

What needs to be understood is the fact that human beings, throughout the history of their existence, have shown a marked tendency to be proud of the societies, cultures, economies and polities that they came from, or, that their ancestors came from, and, it is because of that fact that the concept that all of you disdain, the concept of patriotism, will always exist, even in a reality in which humans are not artificially divided by the boundaries of Capitalist nation-states.

However, it must also be clarified that the concept of patriotism is not concurrent with the ideology of Nationalism, which promotes the division of humans into various ethnic groups with defined nation-states that are in control of their own social, cultural, economical and political destiny, a ideology that necessarily inhibits the development of the State, that necessarily inhibits the development of Capitalism, that necessarily inhibits the development of Xenophobia, and, that necessarily inhibits the development of Racism.


I may feel more at home in my town, I may feel more attached to a certain language or certain people I know, etc. However "patriotism" implies the ideologization of that, to the extent that it becomes "something worth" to die for. Otherwise, there wouldnt be the term "patriot".

Los obreros no tienen patria!

[Red_or_Dead]

Well, imo, there are very few things that are worth dying for... Actually, come to think of it, I cant come up with a single one. Definatly, when someone comes to a point of being willing to die for his/her country, community, political party or anything similar, that is not just a sense of belonging anymore, its an obsession.

If feeling a sense of belonging to a certain community, and realising that it is in everybodys interest that a community works well, if thats not patriotism, than fine. I dont know any single word that could sum up all mentioned above, so I use the word patriotism, accompanied by an explanation. Again I say that ethnicity, religion, race, culture, ect. Dont have anything to do with my perception of patriotism.

[menchevikfr]

I agree totally with you. And I think Internationalism is absolutely not incompatible with a level of patriotism, with a sine qua non condition: there must not be nationalism, which was a left value on the XIX century but since a rightist value.
Only a "fondamentalist" lecture of the texts about internationalism could conclude to an incompatibility between I and P

[F9]

In my oppinion NO.You cant put them together!they are totally opposite!
community=all the world

[jmc]

Patriotism can end badly but some people get mixed up and think anti-patriotism means were agianst the nation we want the best for so i allways point out i want the best for England and thats internationalism and freedom from the boarders in place by accident of history.

[Red_or_Dead]

Patriotism can end badly but some people get mixed up and think anti-patriotism means were agianst the nation we want the best for so i allways point out i want the best for England and thats internationalism and freedom from the boarders in place by accident of history.


That is pretty much what I was going for in the first place. If Im a patriot (which is still a dilema as far as Im concerned), that to me means that I want to do whats best for my country, and that means revolution, internationalism, and ultimately a communist society. Of course, not excluding the rest of the world. Im sure that most members will agree that those are good things, and are infact things we strive for. I strive for them because I hold the opinion that it will be in the best interest of everyone. Why in my country? Where else? I can hardly expect to succed in a revolution over here, and its downright impossible to go and do it abroad, as a foreigner. Those are my "beginer" thoughts anyway.

[PigmerikanMao]

...a new question for me: can one be a communist and a patriot at the same time?

Can a Communist, who is an internationalist, at the same time be a patriot? We hold that he not only can be but also must be. The specific content of patriotism is determined by historical conditions. There is the patriotism of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler, and there is our patriotism. Communists must resolutely oppose the patriotism of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler. The Communists of Japan and Germany are defeatists with regard to the wars being waged by their countries. To bring about the defeat of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler by every possible means is in the interests of the Japanese and the German people, and the more complete the defeat the better.... For the wars launched by the Japanese aggressors and Hitler are harming the people at home as well as the people of the world. China's case, however, is different, because she is the victim of aggression. Chinese Communists must therefore combine patriotism with internationalism. We are at once internationalists and patriots, and our slogan is, Fight to defend the motherland against the aggressors. For us defeatism is a crime and to strive for victory in the War of Resistance is an inescapable duty. For only by fighting in defense of the motherland can we defeat the aggressors and achieve national liberation. And only by achieving national liberation will it be possible for the proletariat and other working people to achieve their own emancipation. The victory of China and the defeat of the invading imperialists will help the people of other countries. Thus in wars of national liberation patriotism is applied internationalism.
The Role of the Chinese Communist Party in the National War (October 1938), Selected Works, Vol. II, p. 196.
Chairman Mao

[Labor Shall Rule]

If you are an internationalist, you acknowledge that the interests of the working class of all countries is over and above the interests of the working class in any one country, but if you are a nationalist, the identity of your specific ethnic, racial, or national group is far more important than whatever international bond that might exist.

So, I think Mao is wrong, you can not be one while at the same time being another.

[PigmerikanMao]

I think the nationalism is dependent on what nation it serves. Third World Nationalism is far more progressive and revolutionary than the nationalism of just one country like Zimbabwe or the Malagasy, or even the United States, but at the same time provides a stepping stone for those unable to grasp the concept of internationalism. In a people's war, and prior to it, the peasantry rely on themselves for survival and the workers in, lets say France, don't mean much to anything- only the nearby community does- hence, Nationalism.