Irish Nationalism

[Holden Caulfield]

in my 6th form we have (some what shallowly) been studying the struggle of the Irish against the British imperialists after the Act Of The Union,

We have studied the Irish leaders and groups, most of these just wanted to replace the English opression of the people with an Irish one it seems, or use the people for their own means with little regard for their needs,

my question is are groups like the Fenians, Young Ireland, etc progressive groups? they fought imperialism but what were their aims regarding social issues, and civil liberties or mere nationalism for nationlisms sake?

if anybody knows it would be a help, as i have minimal knowledge on this subject and don't want to sit there egerly swallowing the shit they teach us

thanks comrades

[Dr Mindbender]

Your questions should be answered at the starry plough forum

http://rsmforum.proboards107.com/index.cgi

[manic expression]

I think this is a tough question. Obviously, Connolly and his allies, as well as the Provisional IRA, were very progressive fighters (out and out Marxists) who could be put under the "Irish Nationalism" label. However, many Irish Nationalists were quite reactionary, as evidenced by the policies of the Irish Free State after the Irish Civil War. Abortion was heavily illegalized, the state took a free market position at just about every turn. The Irish Nationalists had a very, very large spectrum of ideological stances, so you have to look at each organization and individual and judge it that way.

As an example, James Connolly and Eamon de Valera participated in the same uprising, but were almost polar opposites in terms of ideology.

I hope that helps (or at least made sense).

[Holden Caulfield]

yeah, does a bit
cheers comrades

[quirk]

I suggest that you read "labour in Irish History" by James Connolly.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/connolly/1910/lih/index.htm

[Coggeh]

I think this is a tough question. Obviously, Connolly and his allies, as well as the Provisional IRA, were very progressive fighters (out and out Marxists) who could be put under the "Irish Nationalism" label. However, many Irish Nationalists were quite reactionary, as evidenced by the policies of the Irish Free State after the Irish Civil War. Abortion was heavily illegalized, the state took a free market position at just about every turn. The Irish Nationalists had a very, very large spectrum of ideological stances, so you have to look at each organization and individual and judge it that way.

As an example, James Connolly and Eamon de Valera participated in the same uprising, but were almost polar opposites in terms of ideology.

I hope that helps (or at least made sense).
Far right and left both were involved in the uprisings for different reasons of course . De valera actually adopted a policy of protectionism on all irish companies after the cumman na nGaedheal (Fine Gael basically) held power for 10 years after the war of independence . But both Fianna Fail and Fine Gael were religious parties which explains the ties between the Irish state and the Church .Abortion was always illegal in Ireland anyway both north and south , its a heavily religious indoctrinated country.

With regards to the provisional ira i wouldn't call them marxists , the IRA before the war of independence and during it received alot of their funding from Irish bourgeois and had alot of nationalist and religious ties with small splinters of leftism . The ICA Irish citizens army were the marxist organization of the day really . But even though I am Irish
my knowledge of this area is very meh as i find it pretty boring to be honest ....Sorry :blushing:

[gilhyle]

my question is are groups like the Fenians, Young Ireland, etc progressive groups? they fought imperialism but what were their aims regarding social issues, and civil liberties or mere nationalism for nationlisms sake?


The answer to this question depends on what you mean by 'progressive' It has a very particular meaning in Marxism and doesnt mean anyone who had views which would today be considered progressive in an imperialist counrty.

It is quite legitimate to see Young Ireland and the Fenians as 'progressive' notwithstanding the fact that a leading (and relatively left wing) Young Irelander like John O'Mahony was a racist and that Young Irelanders fought on both sides of the American Civil War. Notoriously, the military leader of the absurd Young Ireland rebellion in 1848 forbade his peasant troops from even tresspassing on private property !!! Yet another Young Irelander James Fintan Lalor was very 'left wing' on the land question.

Similar stories can be told about the Fenians, some close to the First International, some at the far end of the spectrum on social questions. But it is not their views on social questions that determine their political character, rather it is whether their struggle was progressive or not - and their struggle against British Imperialism was indeed progressive, for reasons that can be understood by reading up on why Lenin was right and Luxembourg was wrong on the national question.

To say that is not to fall into the error Connolly fell into of believing that the national struggle would flow over into the class struggle - something he believed notwithstanding his advice to his followers to hold to their guns in the event of success against the British. To say that is to go a step too far.

Thus some people have erroneously believed that the Provos were pushed by the dynamic of their struggle to take progressive positions on class issues. But the Provos are a populist, not a socialist party and seem progressive only in that sense - the same sense in which, by the way, De Valera's Fianna Fail appeared to be a progressive party for decades (1920s - 1960s) to 'communists' like Peadar O'Donnell and a whole generation of trade union leaders influenced by James Connolly into a strategic popular front style alliance with nationalism