Che Facts

[Spasiba]

I'm defending Che against a liberal, keynesian capitalist, and he wants a list of facts that prove Che's worth as a hero. So some sort of list of great things Che did would be great.
Also, he keeps bringing up La Cabana, and how Che murdered thousands of innocent people, including children, and was a blood thirsty lunatic, and he also goes on rants about how idiotic Marx and the idea of communism is. So any thing you can offer me would be greatly appreciated, thank you!

[Lenin II]

I would say generally don't argue with him. He sounds set in his ways and unwilling to listen to the other side or consider something called "Material evidence." Swallowing bourgeoisie corporate propaganda without a second thought. Tell him he needs to provide a better argument than "Che=bad." Ask him for evidence that he murdered "thousands of people." If he tries to say prove he didn't, the burden of proof lies with he who proposes, not he who denies. Ask him how many George Washington and Abraham Lincoln killed. How many has Bush killed, or Bill Clinton?
God, these "OMFG SHOK&HOROR CHE KILLED PEOPLE !!!!!1111133311!" kiddies. Yes, it is quite trendy to criticize Che for "human rights" abuses, isn't it? And at the same time easy to overlook the atrocities in Iraq, an imperialist war fought for revenge and natural resources. A million people have died and far more have been displaced. Thousands of children have died, and US marines even raped a young Iraqi teen while her parents were shot to death. This mass slaughter makes any death Che might have caused in the name of the revolution and workers' liberation from the bloodthirsty US-backed dictatorship of Batista look like candy.

Yes, it is quite laughable how the same people who comment in favor of US aggression and bombing civilians, using chemical weapons, invading other countries, using torture to get confessions and their own most popular candidate for president "not ruling out using nuclear weapons," get all tearful over the shooting of one boy. Killing seems to be OK when it's done at 5000 ft, huh?

[Andres Marcos]

I would agree no point to argue with him especially liberals there is no use, liberals are known to draw up pointless theories to defend their anti-communism, so unless you have a lot of patience and can keep your cool(since it will be a long discussion) I would not advise it. What I find funny though is that a lot of youth like the idea of Che Guevara but not his ideas. Either way you could point out like Lenin II said, If Che was a 'murderer' then Nixon, Clinton, or Bush would look like Charles Manson. Che's heroic ideas were that he was known to practice what he preached(living with the soldiers, working with the campesinos etc.), and he was nothing like Castro he hated the colonial status of Cuba imposed by the USSR and wanted to industrialize the nation and diversify the economy, and I would ask him if Hillary Clinton or Ronald Reagan ever harvested crops with the people on their free time. I would also respectfully point out to him if he has ever read anything by Marx and how it was 'idiotic', of course expect a 'Communism is against human nature' comment which will be easy to defend against(at least it was for me).

[quevivafidel]

Marx an "idiot"? I don't know what you could say to someone like that. Che was a very brilliant man who truly loved people and wanted the best for mankind. Perhaps he was too idealistic too soon and made hasty decisions, but he is admirable in many ways. I've always said you cannot critique someone unless you know about them. i.e., I have an Argentine cousin, who is rather materialistic by the way, who says she HATES Bush even though she knows nothing about him, his policies, etc. That's great that she hates him, but if she doesn't have a clue why, it's rather pathetic. The same way someone who says they hate Che looks if they haven't read about him other than whatever Glenn Beck says about him. Tell him his criticism doesn't mean anything unless he's studied Marxism and Che and can debunk their theories and policies in specific detail. That's what I do when I criticise U.S. policies, presidents, etc. If he can do that, then he probably can't be taught to like Che and Marxism.

To answer your question, I can think of many positive things Che did/attempted to do (tried to industrialize Cuba, helped put illiteracy to an end in Cuba, wanted to help third-world countries, radicalized the revolution, etc) but it probably doesn't help if this guy is anti-communist...Who are this guys' heroes, by the way?

[RedDawn]

The right was on the attack against Che Guevara and they came prepared to the debate, ready to accuse Che of being a murderer.

Here is Socialist Alternative's response:
http://www.socialistalternative.org/news/article20.php?id=640

[Spasiba]

A few things he's said (it's a public group, he's not quoting me all the time):
"theres nothing ignorant about supporting a man who fought for liberty. "
Of course not,that's why people like Ghandi,Lafayette,Bartolome de las Casas are idealized(even though de las Casas was a huge racist,but hey,so was Che..).

What's ignorant is to keep thinking that being killed,thrown into a camp or beat up by government goons for disagreeing in the slightest with them is liberty.
You're not a history buff on Cuba are ya kid?Batista didn't have concentration camps,batista didn't execute anybody who disagreed with them,he put them in jail,Batista didn't kick the living shit out of 60 year ld ladies who disagreed with him,he offered them exile.

Batista executed only when law permitted it and every basic freedom but freedom of speech was respected.

Now,don't get me wrong,Batista was a motherfucker and needed to be removed:Sadly enough,one repressive government gave way to a government ten times as repressive.

Cuba,Cuba,Cuba when will you learn?
"im not going to discuss the ways and means of politics in cuba. "
Of course,because you don't know shit about them...

"cubas problems were castros fault and the country went downhill after ches death."
Actually,it started going downhill a month after Che was appointed director of the national bank...

"plenty of world leaders have done terrible things but that doesnt take away from their worth. "
Actually it does,that's why Ghandi was a hero and Nelson Mandela some civil rights fighter who chose to blow up buses filled with civilians.
That's why FDR was great and Reagan was a fucker.
That's why Martin Luther King was a civil rights hero and Malcolm X was the spokesman for Black Supremacy.

But your judgement is so fucked up you can't even realize that.

"che got caught in the heat of revolution. "
Not really,he was just thrilled to be able to kill people just because,and he enjoyed every second of it.

"were his methods proper? of course not. i'll never say they were. the point is, despite ches means, as i said above, what he stood for ss where is value lies."
Che's values were concentrated central government organized to brutally crush dissent,what's so fucking admirable about that?
"get your'e facts straight. "Shoot, coward, youre only going to kill a man".
He said that after the trial he was offered and was fucked.30 minutes before he had been bargaining with the bolivian military to spare his life.He gave up with a full clip of ammo too...

"Yeah, he killed people, its called warfare."
Nope,2000 executions without judiciary processes are not warfare,they're genocide(yeah,genocide,look it up)

"communism is a beautiful idea if you fucking ignorant people would just take a proper look at."
Communism is not a beautiful idea,any idea that advocates taking away basic freedom from anyone is far from beautiful.Comunism is nothing more than an utopia based on the total misunderstanding of human nature.

pregnant woman or a 14 year old child killed i would say there is another account that states the were all BRAC agents operating to rid Cuba off Fidel and Che under the orders of CIA..."
Those accounts make me smile just as much as the NYT article on the "battle" of Santa Clara.Why?It's rather simple,we have accounts from priests and peasants who had relatives participate in the escambray rebellion(executed on site).They weren't BRAC agents,and the executions they have described include the execution of a 14 year old boy who tried to defend his father from being executed.He couldn't and ended up being decapitated by a bullet from Che's pistol.The other one was one of a pregnant woman executed for anti-revolutionary behavior(she told a cuban policeman to fuck himself after he tried to kiss her in the street).Those are the two most shocking but others include public humiliation and...
priests being ordered to pledge allegiance to the cuban government and the atheism it stood for and sometimes even forced to sing songs to the devil.If they didn't comply,the wrong side of a barrel would be waiting for them.


On Marx:
No,he formed his ideology based on his idiocy,ignorance of sociology and hope that someday workers would kill their bosses to lead their countries themselves.Yay marx!
"Somebody OBVIOUSLY hasnt read Marx and is basing his assumptions on Stalinist and Leninist propoganda. "
I read the entire manifesto,that's the only thing I'm basing my thoughts on.

"Marx on the other hand said state ownership would be only one part of the transition to an equal society where 'all men would be free and equal to do as they please' they could infact 'be industrial workers in the morning and critics of art by the evening"
And then we would party with unicorns and cudlly bunnies and be happy for ever and ever!!!!!...

This is where misunderstanding of human nature comes in.Man absolutely CANNOT thrive without competition.Man's only motivation to work hard is to have a better life.In a system with absloutely no class mobility(equal sharing of misery except for those directing and overseeing it),the economy cannot subsist.
That should be enough but there's more.Communism is based on the assumption that the leader of this revolution should be the perfect man.

I don't care if you read it all, I'm sure you'll ge the picture. Point is, he doesn't go away, and feels he has won every argument thus far.

[Guerrilla Manila]

he keeps bringing up La Cabana, and how Che murdered thousands of innocent people


How the American REICH-WING MIND WORKS …

Nuking 250,000 Japanese civilians = Good

Che overseeing the execution of former Dictator Batista’s torturers = Bad



Slave Owners & Genocidal Presidents (millions of Natives) on US $ = Good

Flag of Cuba with their National Hero’s face on it = Bad (see Obama flag "incident")



US Jets Shock and Aweing Iraq and killing thousands of people = Freedom

Che traveling to Bolivia to fight for the landless peasants = Terrorism



Guerrilla & Slave Owner George Washington shooting the enemy = Hero

Guerrilla Che Guevara shooting the enemy = Assassin



The US invading Vietnam and causing 2 million civilian deaths = Freedom

Che killing a total of around 50 Bolivian soldiers in an attempt to topple an oligarchy = Terrorism



Reagan aiding in the death of 1 million Iraqi/Iranians by selling weapons to both sides = OK
Reagan's CONTRA death squads leading to the deaths of 70,000 in El Salvador, more than 100,000 in Guatemala, and 30,000 in Nicaragua = AWESOME ! Best President Ever !

Che having a few hundred rapists and murderers of the former dictator shot after found guilty in tribunals = He's a Butcher !



Etc etc etc .... damn the Reich Wing is STUPID !

[Red Rebel]

La Cabana
Less than 200 people were killed there. They were members of the Batista dictatorship. I don't see any problem with killing them.

I'm currently in a 10 pages debate on another forum. Arguing with anti-communists were you are both just flamming each other will get you no where.

[Gitfiddle Jim]

How the American REICH-WING MIND WORKS …

Nuking 250,000 Japanese civilians = Good

Che overseeing the execution of former Dictator Batista’s torturers = Bad



Slave Owners & Genocidal Presidents (millions of Natives) on US $ = Good

Flag of Cuba with their National Hero’s face on it = Bad (see Obama flag "incident")



US Jets Shock and Aweing Iraq and killing thousands of people = Freedom

Che traveling to Bolivia to fight for the landless peasants = Terrorism



Guerrilla & Slave Owner George Washington shooting the enemy = Hero

Guerrilla Che Guevara shooting the enemy = Assassin



The US invading Vietnam and causing 2 million civilian deaths = Freedom

Che killing a total of around 50 Bolivian soldiers in an attempt to topple an oligarchy = Terrorism



Reagan aiding in the death of 1 million Iraqi/Iranians by selling weapons to both sides = OK
Reagan's CONTRA death squads leading to the deaths of 70,000 in El Salvador, more than 100,000 in Guatemala, and 30,000 in Nicaragua = AWESOME ! Best President Ever !

Che having a few hundred rapists and murderers of the former dictator shot after found guilty in tribunals = He's a Butcher !



Etc etc etc .... damn the Reich Wing is STUPID !

Great post. The American media is full of such bullshit.

[Spasiba]

I keep getting this stuff about La Cabana, where apparantly Che oversaw the death of hundreds, not just political prisoners. Anything more on that subject?

[Guerrilla Manila]

I keep getting this stuff about La Cabana, where apparantly Che oversaw the death of hundreds, not just political prisoners. Anything more on that subject?


The application of the death penalty in Cuba against war criminals and others followed the same procedure as that seen in the trials by the Allies in the Nuremberg trials. Had the Revolutionary Government not applied severe legislation against the few hundred torturers, terrorists, and other criminals long employed by the Batista regime, the people themselves would have taken justice into their own hands--as happened during the anti-Machado rebellion--and thrown the society into chaos. It was only the population's confidence in the government's effective and cautiously selective administration of revolutionary justice that kept the society in order. The death penalty was imposed on the enemies of the people--those who had killed, tortured, and committed crimes against humanity during the revolutionary war and continued to conspire against the revolution. These were the traitorous elements that supported and participated in the Batista regime and received shelter in the United States or Falangist Spain and those that feared fulfillment of the promise to the end of class privilege, exploitation, and all abuses of the Batista regime maintained by the overthrown Cuban bourgeoisie, American corporations, and the U.S. regime.[1]

1. http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0094-582X(199121)18%3A2%3C114%3ATYOCRP%3E2.0.CO%3B2-V


Thirty Years of Cuban Revolutionary Penal Law
Raul Gomez Treto
Latin American Perspectives, Vol. 18, No. 2, Cuban Views on the Revolution (Spring, 1991), pp. 114-125
This article consists of 12 page(s).