Is he kidding himself?

[Digitalism]

I posted an article written by Communist League and one guy got back with a reply, let me paste it here. I am interested in what you guys have to say since you are more knowledgable about this.

Sounds to me like the general ignorant reply...but I wouldn't know, this is where you come in.

"communism has always looked good on paper. this, is marx and lenin's theory on how perfect communism would work. however, the key word is "perfect" we do not live in a perfect world and unfortunately not everyone is honest. communism requires complete honesty, you will never find that, for example, Josef Stalin held 75% or more of the USSR's hard work, and evenly split the REMAINING 25% among the 4 million or so inhabitants of the red nation. great idea, too easily corrupted though. not to say capitalism isnt corrupt, cuz it is. but the thing about it is, it gives you incentive to work. you dont work, you dont live, the harder you work, the easier it will be for you to move up in the economy. In a communist world, mikail, for example works in moscow making AK 47 rifles. and on the other hand, his neighbor, georgi, is lazy and doesnt go to work. but they both make the same paycheck. after a while mikail gets pissed doesnt work either, thus ruining The USSR economy. still getting paid but sitting around kills production, and unfortunately, money doesnt grow on trees, so if nobody works, nobody gets paid. Why do you think the Russian people have suffered so much these last 100 years? there was no money for them because people had no incentive to boost production. and lastly, if communism is so effective, then why isnt it in effective, productive existence, and why is the United States still chugging along with only minor problems? just some food for thought"

another guy replied with.

"While I agree with your description of Marxist-Leninist doctrine, the economics of Communism are very improbable. It is a philosophical notion that does not incorporate the idea of limits. Limits of natural resources, of human will, or the limits of human imagination, for human beings always have a tendency to want something new or better.

In any case a socialist stae such as the Soviet Union could have prospered, if only it eased the restriction on free market, and allowed competition between firms as an incentive to increase production more efficiently, while driving down cost, and increasing quality of all products produced."

Are any of them right? Or are they misunderstanding the concept of communism?

[Robespierre2.0]

These guys have no understanding of communism/socialism, and you should let them know that.

First of all, communism has never existed. Communism is the name we give to the theoretical form society will take once capitalism has been eliminated. "Communist" nations, as they are referred to in the U.S., should more accurately be called "Socialist", as socialism is the transitional stage towards communism.

Second, people are not paid equally in a socialist system. That is nothing but a myth made up by capitalists. Bascially, socialist society runs along the lines of "From each according to their ability, to each according to their deeds"- People would be rewarded according to how much work they do.

You might say, "How is that socialism? I thought capitalism rewards people based on how much work they do."

The truth is, socialism is not about eliminating differences in wage. Someone that does an incredibly difficult job- say a rocket scientist or coal miner- would be rewarded more than a short-order frycook.
However, under socialism, everyone, as long as they do their part, no matter how easy or difficult their job is, is guaranteed at least the basic necessities of life. Under capitalism, the quality of your health care and education largely is determined by how rich of a family you're born into. Under socialism, quality education and health care is a right that every citizen enjoys.

Also, the only reason the U.S. is still chugging along is because it's been constantly involved in 'police actions' in other countries since the advent of industrial capitalism. The vast majority of America's wealth is due to us working the poor of other countries to death.

Before World War II, the USSR built an industrial superpower solely through the sweat and blood of the Russian workers. Unlike the U.S. or U.K., the Soviets became self-sufficient without raping less developed nations to death.

Lastly, the reason the Soviet Union fell apart wasn't because of flaws with the system- it was because capitalists and capitalist influence had snuck into the Soviet government and begun to open up the private sector. If the Soviets hadn't fallen victim to revisionism, its likely the USSR would still be around today.

[MT5678]

but the thing about it is, it [capitalism] gives you incentive to work.

Really? Not enough incentive for the people in Third world countries that are "out of the labor market", according to economists. (meaning that they aren't payed enough to justify their work).

On another note, this came up in the High School Thread. The answer: What motivation do you have to clean your family's house? Are you paid for it? No. And similarly, in a commune, you will work out of a sense of civic duty, and the knowledge that what you do benefits you and everyone else. Oh yeah, and if you don't work, you're thrown into the Sahara.


human beings always have a tendency to want something new or

Human beings have an innate capacity for greed, and an innate capacity for altruism. It is the environment that decides which capacity will dominate at any given time. 60 million Native Americans never developed the concept of private property.


Limits of natural resources

No, it is capitalism that has no concept of this type of limit. Ever wonder what's happening to the Newfoundland Fisheries?


mikail, for example works in moscow making AK 47 rifles. and on the other hand, his neighbor, georgi, is lazy and doesnt go to work. but they both make the same paycheck. after a while mikail gets pissed doesnt work either, thus ruining The USSR economy

Abstraction of humanity from its current state. People will obviously work more if they are involved in their work through a participatory manner. The problem is, we see guys like this fool making these statements because he has abstracted man from his alienated state in capitalism.

[Colonello Buendia]

I wish I'd seen this earlier I could have used this in a debate
:mad:

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Crap.

"Minor problems" is a gross exaggeration when you compare the average West European to the average American; the United States may have the largest economy in the world, but there are many ways one can factor in how that occurred. 1.) the United States is the third largest country in the world in both population and land, 2.) the United States did not suffer infrastructure problems during the two World Wars, and 3.) the United States currently holds the reign of power over trade and global politics.

The lack of innovation argument is rather dull; the USSR's economy lagged only after the market reforms were enacted. Through Lenin, Stalin, and even Khrushchev the economy grew to outperform anything seen in the known history of man [time is the consideration, not size, although it had the second largest economy in the world]. Gorbachev's perestroika was the most detrimental experience for the Soviet economy since the Third Reich pounded on the front door.

Getting the Soviet Union off the ground was the largest problem. Prior to their respected revolutions all "communist" populations were made up of mostly illiterate peasants who enjoyed rather loose control in their government and living to begin with -- mostly limited to complaining about the harvest. Industry outperformed society: peasants couldn't be expected to suddenly run the whole economy for themselves, so the project of worker empowerment turned to "top-down with some recognition of the bottom" and then to simply "top-down" until a time came when the workers could take over.

"Democracy" came slow for the West. Expecting the East to completely shed its tyranny in less than ten years is ridiculous.

[Dros]

Whoever wrote that is an idiot. Communism requires perfect honesty? Really... Tell him to read anything by a Communist.

[Digitalism]

do I have permission to post your responses in that discussion?

[Raúl Duke]

These guys aren't Marxist if they think communism isn't the end-goal of Marxism, including Marxist-Leninism I hope, and reject communism...(referring mostly to the 2nd comment and 1st comment)

Also the last comment sounds like something that would have quickly degenerated into capitalism.

[spartan]

In a communist world, mikail, for example works in moscow making AK 47 rifles. and on the other hand, his neighbor, georgi, is lazy and doesnt go to work. but they both make the same paycheck. after a while mikail gets pissed doesnt work either, thus ruining The USSR economy. still getting paid but sitting around kills production, and unfortunately, money doesnt grow on trees, so if nobody works, nobody gets paid.

This person you are speaking to has their head up their arse!

First off, instead of "Communism" he must mean "Socialism", as in a Communist system there would be no money to pay Mikail or Georgi.

Secondly, no one living in a Socialist system would be paid for doing nothing!

"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." Karl Marx

Honest to God where do these people get their ideas of Socialism from?

[Digitalism]

Honest to God where do these people get their ideas of Socialism from?

Where else if not the general media, biased sources, combined with complete ignorance about wanting to know the TRUTH about the actual thing.

[Digitalism]

I posted some of your replies on that board and here's what the first guy replied with.

"entire wars were fought because of Zhukov's threats to the US. And in response to my knowledge of communism, I go by only the things I read, apparently books directly on marxist theory don't explain the "true" ideals of communism do they? Have YOU read the doctrine? have you read the doctrine on CAPITALISM? because if you have, then you have misunderstood capitalist theory just as I have apparently misunderstood marxist theory. and your comment "Communism has never existed so we really don't know the consequences." what does that mean? so what you're saying is you are defending something that never really existed? therefore rendering your opinion invalid. Get your story straight before you contradict your own words."

[Sleeping Dog]

This is getting so old....Socialism vs. Communism (http://www.romm.org/soc_com.html)! Worse than herding cats.

[Robespierre2.0]

Did you explain to him the difference between socialism and communism? It seems like the guy still doesn't understand.

Also, Zhukov's threats to the US? I've never heard of that before. If this really did happen, would one of the experts on Soviet history here please enlighten me?

Disregard the link above- The person who wrote it seems like another clueless liberal reformist who wants to dismiss the experience of the Soviet Union and PRC as 'not truly socialist'.

Listen- If you truly believe in the cause of socialism, you have to be willing to be looked at funny, or even hated for your beliefs. Analyze different accounts of Soviet history yourself and draw your own conclusions, always keeping in mind that every author has their own political agenda. If you immediately write off Lenin, Stalin, or Mao because most of the people around you have been brought up to think they're evil baby-eating murderers, you are nothing but a coward.

"A lie told a thousand times is still a lie".

[Digitalism]

I read through this and it's obvious the guy is misunderstanding socialism vs communism. This idiot is also saying Russia "hates" Christian ideas, what a moron. The majority of Russia is Christian Orthodox and has been like that as far back as history tells us..but I just want to paste his resposne here and see if some of you more knowledgable people can say something about his fallacies.

"The only reason people have to work so hard today is not in the fact that there is little money, but in the fact that the business owners are responsible for a higher cost of living. Speculators and the like, drive prices upward. Yes, they do get rich, are you saying nobody gets rich in a communist society? I don't care where you go. Somebody is making bank off the working man. And at no time in the history of the USSR can you tell me that none of those dictators made money.

How did they pay for their multiple mansions and personal body guards, if communism really was what it is portrayed as, then Josef Stalin would not be known as dictator and his people known as peasants. The brainwashing that goes on in a communist nation is to teach you that NOBODY gets rich and there aren't any classes, but yet there is. The media controls information there too, "The press must grow day in and day out — it is our Party's sharpest and most powerful weapon."-Josef Stalin.

You can't say the US is the only country to filter information. And again, why do you live in a capitalist country if you hate capitalist ideas? The United States doesn't have a law stating that you can't move back to your native land. Or is it that you cannot live and let live? do you have a drive to spread the red? It isn't going to happen here, the people here are too set in our ways. and besides, if communism is so great, then why did the communist USSR crumble after only 70 years of reign?

Maybe going back to Tsarist rule is in your best interests? Quite frankly, I really don't understand the point you are trying to make here, your statements are full of holes and mismatched, and your current residence shoots your theories with even more holes. If you want to be effective, you must practice what you preach. In other words, preach communism from a communist nation, otherwise people won't believe a damn word you say. You see, the United States was founded on Christian principles and ideals, something that communist countries, namely Russia, hates severely. In the beginning the United States never had a class gap like it does now.

There have been certain individuals over the years who have corrupted the system to make it that way for their own personal gains, and to promote other forms of anti-Christian movements. Their theory was, if they could create a large enough class gap in the US economy, then the people would naturally lean toward a system with a better SURFACE appearance, but a much more evil underbelly. Such as communism.

You tell me, there are many things you are leaving out of the communist rule, such as the senseless murder and hate crimes of its own people by government officials,"The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic."-Josef Stalin. Ordered genocide is something that the US government has never ordered upon its own people since the signing of the declaration of independence. Why are you here? A communist mind never flies in a Christian Capitalist world. Communism is Satan's way of confusing, misleading, and deceiving non-Christian peoples. Such is why non Christian people will not understand their peril."

[Forward Union]

The truth is, socialism is not about eliminating differences in wage. Someone that does an incredibly difficult job- say a rocket scientist or coal miner- would be rewarded more than a short-order frycook.
However, under socialism, everyone, as long as they do their part, no matter how easy or difficult their job is, is guaranteed at least the basic necessities of life. Under capitalism, the quality of your health care and education largely is determined by how rich of a family you're born into. Under socialism, quality education and health care is a right that every citizen enjoys.


So is England communist? Everyone can get a house, healthcare, food, electricty/heating and Education provided by the state. The state will also help you find work to do better.

It's called a welfare state.