Communism and uniforms?

[jake williams]

So I was out for the weekly groceries-shopping with ma mère at the local grocery superstore, and I was standing at the checkout, looking down the line of teenagers and uni students in ties, dress shirts, and clean black dress pants. And I went back to a thought I have pretty frequently.

Never mind the idea of wearing these uniforms myself - I don't like dealing with other people in these uniforms. I would just enjoy my interactions with retail and service workers more if it was an open interaction between human individuals. I think these uniforms (other types of uniforms, say military uniforms or school uniforms are separate issues and should be dealt with differently) are dehumanizing in a pretty specific sense - You are an atomic unit of a capitalist organism and nothing more. It ascribes to people unpleasant characters, and as irritating as individuals' idiosyncrasies might often be, I think it'd just be a more emotionally healthy and engaging world if we were allowed to interact with other people as other people, and not as McDonalds/grocery store... distribution hardware.

And I think this is obviously part of a broadly left/labour/Marxist ethic.

Am I way off here?

[Lynx]

Uniforms can provide a great sense of solidarity. In other circumstances it is better to take them off.

[spartan]

Well some people like wearing uniforms, and they are sometimes necessary to denote what a certain person does.

I agree that school uniforms are pointless, but a mechanic wearing a pair of overalls isnt pointless as he doesnt want to wear his normal everyday clothing and get them dirty.

Also uniforms are there to make a distinction between individuals and their roles in society.

Take for example a firemen in a housefire.

Now he or she needs to be able to tell who they are dealing with as they cant all just turn up in jeans and a t-shirt!

They need to be able to tell who they are evacuating (A civilian or one of their own) from a housefire.

Also uniforms are often apart of protective clothing such as overalls, which are meant to keep your normal clothing from getting dirty, and a firemans uniform which protects the fireman from the fire.

[jake williams]

Well some people like wearing uniforms, and they are sometimes necessary to denote what a certain person does.

I agree that school uniforms are pointless, but a mechanic wearing a pair of overalls isnt pointless as he doesnt want to wear his normal everyday clothing and get them dirty.

Also uniforms are there to make a distinction between individuals and their roles in society.

Take for example a firemen in a housefire.

Now he or she needs to be able to tell who they are dealing with as they cant all just turn up in jeans and a t-shirt!

They need to be able to tell who they are evacuating (A civilian or one of their own) from a housefire.

Also uniforms are often apart of protective clothing such as overalls which are meant to keep your normal clothing from getting dirty, and a firemans uniform which protects him from the fire.
Okay, but see, I'm talking about McDonalds hats. And like I said, I'm not talking about school uniforms, that's a different discussion, I'm mostly talking about service jobs, you know, retail, food service, that kind of thing. Ties with a grocery store logo patterned on them.

Overalls are not a "uniform" in the symbolic sense, they're a tool. You use it to do your job. But there's no use in everyone in a McDonald's kitchen wearing the same clothes. If someone's standing behind the counter and no one else that work there is all "Who're you?", then it's obvious that they are there, and there to do the job. All the uniform does is, like I said, dehumanize, it's an intent to eliminate your human characters and machinate the service industry (which is a bit ridiculous in and of itself, but again, separate discussion). In fact, like I said, I would rather be served by people not wearing uniforms - by people. It just feels more human, more meaningful, I feel the same sort of emotional abhorrence towards capitalist institutions as is the convention to feel queasy reading about "communist propaganda" and so forth. As things are now it feels like the idea that these people exist solely to serve, solely conceptualized within their economic institutional role, and have no separate, grander existence. Granted, zitty 16-year-olds might not necessarily be deep, complex, fascinating characters, but surely there's more to them than Fries with that, and I want to see that more-to-them, and I just don't think I'm alone in this.

And, okay, even ignoring the protection-from-fire aspect of what firefighters wear, there is of course a legitimacy to differentiating them from the general public for the purpose of saving lives. This is a bit of a higher purpose than dehumanizing and institutionalizing the subservience of teenagers. And even if we want people to pick out those who work at a store for the purposes of asking for assistance and such, I mean, a name tag would suffice - you needn't all be wearing the same clothing.

And I think it's important that most of the people I'm talking about don't want to wear their uniforms.

[Dr Mindbender]

communist uniforms have only ever been synonomous with authoritarian communism.

To the best of my knowledge, theres never really been a libertarian communist state to speak of. Cuba may have come pretty close, but even there things were all very cloak and dagger.

[Organic Revolution]

Uniforms can provide a great sense of solidarity.

I hate you. Uniforms push homogenization, and the death of individuality and base culture.

[Cmde. Slavyanski]

Free development of the individual is based on the free development of the whole.

Of course uniforms in many jobs can be eliminated. For example, for many years(actually they still have them today), the Soviet Union often relied on volunteer citizen police rather than just the militia. They were known as Druzhina(actually this dates to 1913 in the Tsarist government, but the Bolsheviks popularized it), and they were to maintain public order. They generally wore plain clothes, but with a red armband and a badge. That kind of 'uniform' can be used to replace a lot of traditional uniforms for certain jobs.

[Lynx]

I hate you. Uniforms push homogenization, and the death of individuality and base culture.
I'm sorry you hate me. I'm not advocating living and sleeping in a uniform, only for certain activities.

[jake williams]

I'm sorry you hate me. I'm not advocating living and sleeping in a uniform, only for certain activities.
What sorts of activities? And why?

[RedAnarchist]

Unless there is a need for uniforms, for example firefighters, I don't see why they are necessary. An uniform should only be required if that uniform protects the person (ie an helmet or fireproof clothing) or identifies the person (ie certain colours, symbols etc). I don't even like formal clothing such as suits etc - they just make people look dull and mechanic.

[jake williams]

Unless there is a need for uniforms, for example firefighters, I don't see why they are necessary. An uniform should only be required if that uniform protects the person (ie an helmet or fireproof clothing) or identifies the person (ie certain colours, symbols etc). I don't even like formal clothing such as suits etc - they just make people look dull and mechanic.
I agree, about the suits too.

Am I totally erratic and strange, though, and this might be my main question, to specifically enjoy it less, having my groceries bagged by a kid in a neat little tie and dress shirt, to prefer it that these people not have to be polite, deferential automata, or risk dismissal? What I'm saying is this a subjective thing, not just that this is wrong in the sense that they shouldn't be subjected to that, but that I genuinely don't appreciate it - and I don't think I'm alone.

[redarmyfaction38]

Unless there is a need for uniforms, for example firefighters, I don't see why they are necessary. An uniform should only be required if that uniform protects the person (ie an helmet or fireproof clothing) or identifies the person (ie certain colours, symbols etc). I don't even like formal clothing such as suits etc - they just make people look dull and mechanic.

the trouble is; people like uniforms, they express their desire to belong to a wider group, to be part of something that is bigger and stronger than they are as individuals and denotes a common interest or belief system.
just look around, the "emo's" identify each other by a dress code as do "skinheads", "goths",football hooligans etc. etc.

it is not a case of capitalists forcing uniforms upon their employeees but a case of capitalists exploiting the natural desire of human beings to belong to a group or btribe they identify with.

[Cmde. Slavyanski]

This is really a minor, aesthetic issue in nearly all cases, save for the military. The reason being that the military represents an institution that is something of a "necessary evil". Uniforms should be practical, with dress uniforms being very modest as well(perhaps just an unused field uniform kept pressed and cleaned). Medals should be kept to a minimum that are necessary, and rank should be inconspicuous.

If you want to see a real problem that occurred in the socialist Soviet Union(1924-1956), look at Zhukov, Rokossovsky, or any other major Soviet commander prior to 1943. Then look at them after the war. They look like Tsarist generals, and the fame and military status went to their heads, making them willing accomplices of Khruschev(who would later betray them).

Albania was a bit more progressive in that vein, with more simplistic, practical uniforms throughout its existence. I find it hilarious looking at the difference between Tito and Hoxha after the war- the latter in a modest khaki uniform while Tito would parade around with so much shiny junk on his jacket that you can barely tell if its Tito or King Peter II.

[Ismail]

I really don't see how uniforms equal the death of all discourse. Sure, does everything need a corresponding uniform? Of course not, but even if you came out of your house looking like a fort made out of wool, you'd still have personality.

[kromando33]

I hate you. Uniforms push homogenization, and the death of individuality and base culture.
Individuality is nothing by bourgeois capitalism.

[Organic Revolution]

Individuality is nothing by bourgeois capitalism.

Do you mean individuality is nothing but bourgeoisie capitalism? Justify, dont just spout off random shit.

[The Advent of Anarchy]

If you want to wear a uniform, I don't care. It's obvious that Redarmyfaction is right; people like uniforms. Wear the damn uniform, just don't wear anything fascist or Nazi, like Bill O'Reilly's pajamas.

[Cmde. Slavyanski]

Do you mean individuality is nothing but bourgeoisie capitalism? Justify, dont just spout off random shit.

I'll "justify" that. Humans are social animals. The individual is nothing without society. His individual development is contingent on conditions of society. If he is dirt poor, he cannot do what he wants, he can't develop his talents, and so on.

Individualism, as it is presented today, is largely a sham, based on what clothes you wear, or what music you listen to, but generally your choices are limited to what society provides you with, and your material ability to make those choices.

[jake williams]

Individuality is nothing by bourgeois capitalism.
Well it depends entirely on one's conception of "individuality". I mean, if you're talking about "People should reject their neighbours in favour of buying themselves bigger houses" - sure. But that's not at all what I'm talking about. I'm thinking the diversity of possible "individualities" is obvious, but if not, I can elaborate.


t's obvious that Redarmyfaction is right; people like uniforms.
This certainly may be the case, but it's not at all my experience. I mean, some uniforms, sure, but in a lot of cases it's an uncomfortable "duty" that no one wants, and which I don't see a valid point for. Again, I have to emphasize, I'm not talking about "every case of uniform dress among a group of people" - I'm talking about the special case of approximately-minimum-wage service-industry jobs where one wears a dumb little hat and takes all kinds of shit from everyone, or they get fired.

[kromando33]

jammoe I agree but 'individuality' is also contingent on solidarity, the true expression of the individual is found in membership of the community. It's about interdependence in labor, so workers may have different jobs, but all are necessary to the big picture.

[Lynx]

What sorts of activities? And why?
A communist version of the Peace Corps. Why - to encourage solidarity, to be visible while doing 'good work', to learn to work as a group and gain valuable field experience.

[Coggeh]

I like school uniforms to be honest , personally anyway . It would piss me off to have to worry about what shit i'm wearing into school everyday its great wearing the same crappy uniform everyday :) ... but thats just me ...

[spartan]

Another important topic in this uniform debate, is the issue of uniforms as part of sexuality.

Personally i kind of like the whole uniform domination porn scene, though its the thinking behind that enjoyment that intrests me the most, as it seems pretty obvious to me that humans associate a uniformed appearence with authoritary.

So i can understand when people, of a certain political stance, dont like uniforms or see the point in them in a post revolutionary society.

[jake williams]

Another important topic in this uniform debate, is the issue of uniforms as part of sexuality.

Personally i kind of like the whole uniform domination porn scene, though its the thinking behind that enjoyment that intrests me the most, as it seems pretty obvious to me that humans associate a uniformed appearence with authoritary.

So i can understand when people, of a certain political stance, dont like uniforms or see the point in them in a post revolutionary society.
I think, generally, so long as we're not harming anyone by the act and its effects, we should be able to sexualize anything we'd like. Again I think that's a separate issue. I'd intended to talk about a very specific case in starting the original thread, but it's gotten broadened out a lot.

[Lynx]

I like school uniforms to be honest , personally anyway . It would piss me off to have to worry about what shit i'm wearing into school everyday its great wearing the same crappy uniform everyday :) ... but thats just me ...
Would you say that school uniforms reduce the amount of bullying going on between students? Does it allow otherwise marginalized students to feel more at ease?

[Bright Banana Beard]

Would you say that school uniforms reduce the amount of bullying going on between students? Does it allow otherwise marginalized students to feel more at ease?

Yes and second, not sure . It greatly leads to crackdown on bullies and gang in my school and now there is no bully team since they tend to have same clothes and now I don't need to worry what I should wear and able to concrete on education.

[crimsonzephyr]

uniforms seem to get rid of individualism but they also can show that whoever is wearing them are part of a similar cause. It's not that uniforms would be forced on people necessarily.

[jake williams]

uniforms seem to get rid of individualism but they also can show that whoever is wearing them are part of a similar cause. It's not that uniforms would be forced on people necessarily.But my whole point is that this specific kind of uniform separates - it says "I am not a human like the rest of you".

[Organic Revolution]

the trouble is; people like uniforms, they express their desire to belong to a wider group, to be part of something that is bigger and stronger than they are as individuals and denotes a common interest or belief system.
just look around, the "emo's" identify each other by a dress code as do "skinheads", "goths",football hooligans etc. etc.

it is not a case of capitalists forcing uniforms upon their employeees but a case of capitalists exploiting the natural desire of human beings to belong to a group or btribe they identify with.

So workers where the same uniform so they can feel accepted by there co-workers? That makes no sense at all. Uniforms are used in the workplace so they can tell who is there workers.

[Module]

I know that one purpose of school uniforms is to provide a feeling of equality among the student body. I can't quite remember where I heard it, but I remember being told once that school uniforms can be used because of childrens' teenager's tendency to judge on the basis of appearance.
I remember my mother once telling me that at the school she used to teach at, for some of the kids, their school uniform constituted most of their wardrobe, and they would wear it on plain-clothes days also, just so they wouldn't have to go out in the other clothes they owned (or didn't).