Immigration

[fmlnleft]

What do you guys think about the immigration situation in the U.S.? Are you guys for it or against it?

[rocker935]

Personally, I'm for it. The only reason mexico is so fucked up is because of America, its only fair.

BTW, I was assuming you were referring to Illegal Mexican immigration.

[fmlnleft]

Its cool. I was refering to central american immigrants as well. they are a lot of people from El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, ect.

[Comrade Rage]

In reference to the repression side of the situation, I am against that.

[Joby]

All I say is that if they come here to work, that's great. But they should have to pay all the taxes which I have to pay. It's only fair.

[fmlnleft]

Its intresting that you say that. The majority of the hispanics here do pay taxes. Money that they never get back. I dont know why many say that immigrants dont pay taxes here.

[Comrade Rage]

Its intresting that you say that. The majority of the hispanics here do pay taxes. Money that they never get back. I dont know why many say that immigrants dont pay taxes here.Popular misconception. It's pretty demagogic for people to repeat it, though.

[Faux Real]

I support it since it's a temporary improvement in their living conditions. They're still going to be highly exploited under capitalism if they already come from an impoverished background, but at least it will be relatively safer escaping from a country ravaged by civil/proxy war (or coups), economical and social impoverishment. I've never understood (besides the fact of the USA being close geographically) why they move to the country responsible for their plight, though.

I don't support the idea of borders.

All I say is that if they come here to work, that's great. But they should have to pay all the taxes which I have to pay. It's only fair.What about "illegal immigrants"? They cannot pay taxes or do anything related to government programs without being under the threat of deportation. Would you deport them?

[gilhyle]

All I say is that if they come here to work, that's great. But they should have to pay all the taxes which I have to pay. It's only fair.

Yeah and they should all have the right to vote that you have cos they are liable for taxes, without having to become citizens

[jake williams]

In general, I think basically anyone should be allowed to go anywhere. Also, we really shouldn't forget the U.S. conquest of Mexico and annihilation of of the indigenous population. The notion of white Texans defending "their" land from partly indigenous Mexicans from a couple hundred miles south is absurd and disgusting.

[BIG BROTHER]

I'm an inmigrant myself, so my answer will obiosly be pretty bias, but all I have to say is, that one of the reasons we come here for, its because our contries are really poor and that's in great part because of the explotation, by the united states and europian contries.

plus those who see us a foreigners should remember that the real "americans" are the tribes that lived on this land before the inmigrants for europe came.

[Jimmie Higgins]

The attack on immigrants in the U.S. should be seen as an attack on all workers in the US. It's a classic divide and conquer tactic by big business and the Ruling class. While cutting social services, government points the finger for declining public schools and public services at immigrants "crossing the border free health care and schools (we have free healthcare? - news to me).

The difference right now is that with the growth of the organized anti-immigration groups, the dog is off the leash. With weak unions and a crashing economy I feel like the anti-immigrant forces could potentially become much worse.

I think it's the most important domestic issue for the left to relate to in the U.S. and most of western Europe. To me, anyone who works should have the same rights, otherwise it divides the working class and hurts all workers.

[Black Cross]

They have the same right as any american to pursue a descent wage and life. We can't allow the government to send them away, no matter how funny it would be to watch the US economy eat shit in their absence. Anything we can do to help their situation, we should do, no question.

[Sky]

Human migration has played an important role in history. It is associated with settlement, economic use of the land, development of productive forces, education, and the mixing of races, languages, and peoples. Lenin attributed great significance to internal migration in Russia, which contributed to the settlement of the southern steppe and forest-steppe regions, the Volga Region, the Urals, and Siberia, as well to the growth of cities. In Russia, some 5 millions persons migrated to Turkestan and Siberia between 1926-39.

In the capitalist countries the causes of internal and external migration are usually the same. Migrants from relatively overpopulated, land-hungry regions resettle and seek jobs in newly developed areas. There is a tendency for population to shift from rural to urban areas. Working people make seasonal moves in search of agricultural work in rural areas and jobs in cities. Peasants are resettled on free lands.

Among the earliest migrations were the spontaneous resettlements of ancient tribes, which took place throughout the world. These resettlements, which lasted for thousands of years, were accompanied by the peaceful development of new territories. As the primitive communal system declined, production developed, and the population grew, mass movements of people were accompanied by the formation and destruction of early class states and the development of new peoples. The mingling of different tribes, which decisively influenced the formation of the modern ethnic structure of the European population, took place at the end of antiquity and during the early Middle Ages as a result of the Great Migration of Peoples. During the feudal period there were mass migrations of peasants fleeing from the oppression of serfdom to free lands.
During the period of the primary accumulation of capital migrations were associated with the colonization of lands discovered by Europeans in America, Asia, and Africa, and with the extermination of indigenous populations or with their displacement in to the interior of a country. From the 16th through 18th centuries a large part of America was settled by free immigrants from Europe and by slaves abducted from Africa.

As capitalism developed, the size of human migrations increased throughout the 19th century. Interstate migrations caused by relative overpopulation of certain countries and a shortage of manpower in others became more common. Emigrants were attracted to the Americas, Australia, and South Africa. During the period of developed capitalism the migration stream was initially heaviest from the industrially developed countries of Europe—England, Germany, the Netherlands. Later, from the end of the 19th century an even greater stream came from the less industrialized countries of Southern and Eastern Europe, which had suffered agrarian crises (Italy, Poland, Hungary). Emigration reached its peak between 1900 and 1914, a period during which about 20 million persons emigrated. In the 1960s and 1970s migrations from the less developed countries of Europe (Italy, Spain, Yugoslavia, Ireland) to the more developed ones (France, England, Germany) became common. With the restoration of bourgeois mis-rule in the formerly socialist states, there has been large-scale migration from Poland, Ukraine, and Romania to the countries of Western Europe.

[BIG BROTHER]

The attack on immigrants in the U.S. should be seen as an attack on all workers in the US. It's a classic divide and conquer tactic by big business and the Ruling class. While cutting social services, government points the finger for declining public schools and public services at immigrants "crossing the border free health care and schools (we have free healthcare? - news to me).

The difference right now is that with the growth of the organized anti-immigration groups, the dog is off the leash. With weak unions and a crashing economy I feel like the anti-immigrant forces could potentially become much worse.

I think it's the most important domestic issue for the left to relate to in the U.S. and most of western Europe. To me, anyone who works should have the same rights, otherwise it divides the working class and hurts all workers.

nice point! They use inmigrants as a scapegoat to cover the failure that the capitalist system has on the working class.

[rocker935]

All I say is that if they come here to work, that's great. But they should have to pay all the taxes which I have to pay. It's only fair.


Well, most illegal immigrants have attempted to come here legally but obviously were not allowed. SO they sneak over. Well, if your not a legal citizen its impossible to pay taxes. So I wouldn't blame them for it. Plus, try working for their miserable wages and then not pay taxes, trust me, you would rather just pay taxes and get minimal wage or higher.

[BIG BROTHER]

well it seems like everything that could've been said in this thread has already been said. Rocker935 I'm glad that there are people like you.

"The workers struggle has no frontier!"

[Cmde. Slavyanski]

While the Fascist "blame-the-victim" attacks on immigrants should be opposed, realistically a socialist state or bloc of states can't just open the doors to immigration for security reasons and other reasons. For one thing, what would be the reason to employ large numbers of guest-workers? Imperialist nations open their borders so they can exploit immigrants. No exploitation, no need to replace the workforce with immigrants. But most importantly, open door immigration is exploitation not only of the immigrants, but of their countries.

We are supposed to be fighting for a world where nations do not exploit each other. If that is the case, would it be fair if a worker in one nation, whether capitalist or socialist, has a wide variety of choices of work in his own home, his own culture, while another person who was unfortunate enough to be born in the wrong place has very few if any meaningful choices, and is more or less forced by a number of conditions to leave his homeland and be exploited in a foreign land. Exploitation of nations isn't just stealing the nations resources or labor, it is taking their best minds from them by creating conditions that force people to leave. Ideally, everyone should have the right to grow up and live a decent life in their homeland if they so choose. Immigration is no picnic even when you are not desperate and don't need to do it- I know this from personal experience.

Of course I still see some so-called Communists talking about how the South-West was originally Mexican land- well this is a nationalist argument.
Clearly the solution lies somewhere in organizing and radicalizing the immigrant workers- but especially reaching the European-descended workers out of these "blame-the-victim" groups. Obviously Mexican nationalist rhetoric isn't going to faciliate that kind of unity. The workers have a right to the land, not the ruling classes that make up the state of Mexico or the US.

[BIG BROTHER]

that's the problem, in Mexico the capitalist system just keeps making our people more poor, while a few wealthy ones keep getting richer.

[Cmde. Slavyanski]

that's the problem, in Mexico the capitalist system just keeps making our people more poor, while a few wealthy ones keep getting richer.

That's why Reds need to work on organizing and improving the situation on the pro-immigration side. Why should Mexicans be forced by their own comprador government to work in another nation where they will ALWAYS be exploited, whether they are legal, undocumented, or part of some guest-worker program? Guest-worker programs are designed to legitimize the exploitation of immigrants while keeping reactionaries relatively happy. In that sense, the pro-immigrant marchers ought not to be waving the flag of a nation that is in cahoots with their exploiters. Rather than the red,white and blue, or the green white, and blue, the only flag should be Red.

[Winter]

The hispanics who are coming to this country ( the US ) are being scapgoatted. The US bourgeois want their cheap labor by exploitation while they create disunity and friction amongst the working class. The working class will never be able to unite as long as there is racial divisions due to nationalism. It's sad that so many good, working class people are being blinded by this nationalistic propaganda. Every worker of the world, regardless of race, have everything in common.

[Cmde. Slavyanski]

The hispanics who are coming to this country ( the US ) are being scapgoatted. The US bourgeois want their cheap labor by exploitation while they create disunity and friction amongst the working class. The working class will never be able to unite as long as there is racial divisions due to nationalism. It's sad that so many good, working class people are being blinded by this nationalistic propaganda. Every worker of the world, regardless of race, have everything in common.

I agree wholeheartedly, but sadly I see little effort to deal with the nationalism on the Mexican side, and that is what is being used by panic-mongers on the right. Even groups like the RCP talk about how the Southwest was "unjustly taken" and so on. But it's not like the entity of Mexico is that much more legitimate on this continent than the United States or Canada. It's not as if Mexico=Indigenous. The three major North American nations need to realize that they are all basically artificial constructs, and the task of the working class should be to work together and settle our differences peacefully.

[Winter]

I agree wholeheartedly, but sadly I see little effort to deal with the nationalism on the Mexican side, and that is what is being used by panic-mongers on the right. Even groups like the RCP talk about how the Southwest was "unjustly taken" and so on. But it's not like the entity of Mexico is that much more legitimate on this continent than the United States or Canada. It's not as if Mexico=Indigenous. The three major North American nations need to realize that they are all basically artificial constructs, and the task of the working class should be to work together and settle our differences peacefully.

Absolutely true. It has become this whole mexican vs. US issue which it is not. The entire west in general is built upon bloody imperialism. The apache and the aztec are the true victims here.

[thehardestpart]

that's the problem, in Mexico the capitalist system just keeps making our people more poor, while a few wealthy ones keep getting richer.

Do you think it's any different in America? rich get rich poor get poor is the entire basis of capitalist exploitation.

[thehardestpart]

I am for the common good of the worker regardless of where they are from. I disagree with immigration being illegal in the first place. I hold a no borders no nations rule. I suppose that could be a naive anarchist view, but to me, borders and nations only exist for tax and trade reasons.

However, since immigration is government controlled, when immigrants come over illegally, it creates problems for the American workers and the legal immigrants already over here. When they dont pay taxes, we get tax increases, etc.

There really is no solution to the immigration problem besides total outright revolution.

[BIG BROTHER]

That's why Reds need to work on organizing and improving the situation on the pro-immigration side. Why should Mexicans be forced by their own comprador government to work in another nation where they will ALWAYS be exploited, whether they are legal, undocumented, or part of some guest-worker program? Guest-worker programs are designed to legitimize the exploitation of immigrants while keeping reactionaries relatively happy. In that sense, the pro-immigrant marchers ought not to be waving the flag of a nation that is in cahoots with their exploiters. Rather than the red,white and blue, or the green white, and blue, the only flag should be Red.

True, true, we workers should unite against our common enemy. But sadly enough most of our people don't know what communisim is or have wrong ideas about it.

[jake williams]

However, since immigration is government controlled, when immigrants come over illegally, it creates problems for the American workers and the legal immigrants already over here. When they dont pay taxes, we get tax increases, etc.
The extent to which this actually occurs is relevant. Does anyone have numbers on this?

[MT5678]

American taxes have been decreasing, not that rich guys pay much in taxes anyways.

There are only 12 million undocumented immigrants. Most don't have access to medical services except emergency which they can't pay for(ZNet had something on this), social security (if they live long enough), legal services for workman's comp, college whatever. Why? Because it leaves a paper trail that will get them deported.

Being an undocumented would suck. You don't make enough to live because companies hardly pay you, and you also have to send remittances to Mexico.

[Winter]

That's why Reds need to work on organizing and improving the situation on the pro-immigration side. Why should Mexicans be forced by their own comprador government to work in another nation where they will ALWAYS be exploited, whether they are legal, undocumented, or part of some guest-worker program? Guest-worker programs are designed to legitimize the exploitation of immigrants while keeping reactionaries relatively happy. In that sense, the pro-immigrant marchers ought not to be waving the flag of a nation that is in cahoots with their exploiters. Rather than the red,white and blue, or the green white, and blue, the only flag should be Red.

Great observation. I totally agree.

[fmlnleft]

However, since immigration is government controlled, when immigrants come over illegally, it creates problems for the American workers and the legal immigrants already over here. When they dont pay taxes, we get tax increases, etc.

Actually, I do know a lot poeple with out papers who do pay taxes. But they never get benifits, medical care, or anything like that. :mad: