was jesus a socialist show some examples if he was

[Davie zepeda]

Was are son of god a water melon was he a socialist was he for the poor and leftist.
show examples of how he was and not .
Then i like you to consider this was robin hood a communist.

[Robert]

Oh, yes, I definitely suspect he was a watermelon. You know, green on he outside, red on the inside.

[kromando33]

All these primitive examples of 'communism' are completely irrelevant, I mean honestly who cares, we are progressive in that we are for a government run by the only revolutionary class, the proletariat, we are for the socialization of the industrial productive forces of society. Jesus in reality was just a believer in welfare and voluntary charity.

The people who say Jesus was a 'socalist' are thoroughly confused, and are usually pseudo-leftitst looking for a 'one-up' of religious conservatives. Jesus lived over 2 thousand years ago, Marxism isn't about restoring the perceived or actual conditions of primitive communalism practiced in the early Christian community or whatever, that's completely reactionary because it's trying to turn the clock back.

[Holden Caulfield]

he was a kind of primative socialist what with going all mad and stuff about the money men in the temples and caring about the most dejected down trodden peoples,
Christianity was a religion of the poor,

and i know most people here dont like religion, neither do i but that is because the message got fucked up, if socialist christians want to say Jesus was a socialist let them why should we care,

strip away all the bullshit and the message is just help your fellow man etc..

[Davie zepeda]

i don't think it is leftist ideal to use jesus as a card in the deck for his position i mean he did alot of actions to help other also gave his life for us a major revolutionary thing even showed us the purpose of being human was not just to gain wealth but to help your fellow man give him a second chance no matter what he be a criminal ,whore,blind what ever you help them out of the situation because you don't want to see people like that. The one thing i don't understand it say's in the bible not to oppressed your neighbor's let him do what he wants freely also it is every man decision to chooses what he wants in life so why the are these religious factors using the word to hold people down and silence there voice it doesn't make sense to me lol

[Dimentio]

There is no purpose of being human.

[Dr Mindbender]

ive made this point before in an old old thread. All the right wing stuff about being loyal to governments and being as nasty as possible to homosexuals was added on later by empires, governments, conservative politicians and royalty to suit their political needs. Most of the reactionary stuff came from the old testament anyway, not from jesus's mouth (assuming he was a real person).
I think indeed, Jesus was the che guevara of his times.

[Bandito]

Jesus wasn't a leftist,and it's stupid to think that way. Being a leftist is much not about giving poor,it's much more than that.
But,christianity was spread all over poor Romans as Europe's first big social movement,and stopped being that when it turned away from the poor. Similar to later called revisionism.

[SouthernBelle82]

All you have to do is read through Jesus's sermon's and parables and what he said to everyone such as with taxes and he was for the seperation of church and state. Check out his sermon on the mountain as well and what he said to the rich young ruler etc. However as I said in the Castro church thread if Jesus was around today he would probably be a moderate populist today but for his day and age he was a leftist. Keep in mind again this is for his day and age. What Jesus preached about is one of the many reason's why I am a communist. Keep in mind one of many. However my faith is just for me and is personal. I'm very much for the government staying out of politics and vice versa and if a politician is of any particular faith as long as he or she doesn't do a George Bush then that's fine with me.

[Angry Young Man]

Nobody said about Robin Hood. He was a monarchist, so no.

[Colonello Buendia]

I don't think Jesus was communist, centre left maybe but we can't really use modern terminology in describing him. he did however have a knack for mobilising people in support for a cause... a sort of liberal Che'.

Robin Hood, was was at best reformist methinks because he wanted change but wanted the same system as was in place

[Luís Henrique]

"Socialism" only exists as opposing capitalism. Capitalism only came into existence in the XVIII Century; so nobody who lived before that was a socialist. Jesus was no more a socialist than a Tottenham Hotspurs fan, or a rock singer.

There is something called history; it is useless to try to understand people outside of it.:eek:

Luís Henrique

[Robert]

a sort of liberal Che'.

Yeah. Only sort of different.

[SouthernBelle82]

Well Jesus did oppose capitalism since he was for giving everything to the poor. Such again as the example of what he said to the rich young ruler and various other verses you can find throughout the gospels. But as I said if he was around today he probably would be a moderate populist like a John Edwards type with spirituality and he wouldn't be running for president.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Defining the character Jesus with secular terminology is pointless, but certainly a lot of his supposed teachings have a resemblance to the socialist movement. Interestingly enough, the four topics that now get conservative Christians riled: homosexuality, abortion, patriotism, and allowing a system built on greed to prosper, were hardly included in the message for salvation. There's actually explicit cases where the latter two are called out as farces.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

All these primitive examples of 'communism' are completely irrelevant, I mean honestly who cares, we are progressive in that we are for a government run by the only revolutionary class, the proletariat, we are for the socialization of the industrial productive forces of society. Jesus in reality was just a believer in welfare and voluntary charity.

The people who say Jesus was a 'socalist' are thoroughly confused, and are usually pseudo-leftitst looking for a 'one-up' of religious conservatives. Jesus lived over 2 thousand years ago, Marxism isn't about restoring the perceived or actual conditions of primitive communalism practiced in the early Christian community or whatever, that's completely reactionary because it's trying to turn the clock back.

You can be a Leftist and not a Marxist. Religious communists should be welcomed; if Marx was right religion should naturally fall apart; if he was wrong then no harm was done opening up our arms to fellow comrades.

[kromando33]

You can be a Leftist and not a Marxist. Religious communists should be welcomed; if Marx was right religion should naturally fall apart; if he was wrong then no harm was done opening up our arms to fellow comrades.
No I don't think it's even possible to be a leftist and a Christian, leftism at the least implies progressive attitudes, Christianity is pre-industrial and thus irrelevant. And for every 1 'leftist; Christian their are 100 ignorant bigots.

[RedAnarchist]

Was are son of god a water melon was he a socialist was he for the poor and leftist.
show examples of how he was and not .
Then i like you to consider this was robin hood a communist.

I don't understand?

[Nakidana]

No I don't think it's even possible to be a leftist and a Christian, leftism at the least implies progressive attitudes, Christianity is pre-industrial and thus irrelevant. And for every 1 'leftist; Christian their are 100 ignorant bigots.

You just refused to work with 88% of the world's population. Good luck with your revolution. :rolleyes:

[RedAnarchist]

You just refused to work with 88% of the world's population. Good luck with your revolution. :rolleyes:

I seriously doubt 88% of the world is Christian.

[kromando33]

You just refused to work with 88% of the world's population. Good luck with your revolution. :rolleyes:
Guess what, about 99.99% of the worlds population also live under bourgeois dictatorship, I guess that also means that 99.99% of the worlds population will refuse to work with me:eek:

[kromando33]

Also:

"The basis of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. And, in truth, religion is consciousness of self and the self-feeling of a man who has not yet found himself or has lost himself again. Also, man is not an abstract being existing outside the world. Man--that is, the world of men, the state, society. This state, this society, produces religion--an inverted consciousness of the world--because the world itself is an inverted world. . . . It is the imaginary realization of the human essence, necessary because the human essence has not true reality. . . .
Religious misery is at once the expression of real misery and a protest against real misery. Religion is the sigh of the hard-pressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, the spirit of nonspiritual conditions. It is the opium of the people."

[RedAnarchist]

Guess what, about 99.99% of the worlds population also live under bourgeois dictatorship, I guess that also means that 99.99% of the worlds population will refuse to work with me:eek:

Who are the 0.11% who will?

[kromando33]

Who are the 0.11% who will?
Actually, now that I think about it more like the whole world except Cuba, and that's only like 11 million people.

Either way, this is offtopic, the point to be made is that Christianity is simply a tool of bourgeois repression.

[RedAnarchist]

Actually, now that I think about it more like the whole world except Cuba, and that's only like 11 million people.

Either way, this is offtopic, the point to be made is that Christianity is simply a tool of bourgeois repression.

Do you not consider Venezuela as well? After all, its far closer to Cuba than most countries are.

[Coggeh]

he was a kind of primative socialist what with going all mad and stuff about the money men in the temples and caring about the most dejected down trodden peoples,
Christianity was a religion of the poor,

and i know most people here dont like religion, neither do i but that is because the message got fucked up, if socialist christians want to say Jesus was a socialist let them why should we care,

strip away all the bullshit and the message is just help your fellow man etc..
All religions are "religions of the poor" in the sense its where they get their power from.
Jesus wasn't a socialist , it would be good if he was but he simply wasn't (that is if he was a person at all in the first place) .... According to scripture written 2000 years ago by like 12ish crazy people ,Jesus has many quotes or sayings that may be interpreted as leftist but in actual fact this is a ploy by the writers to attract a target audience . A man of the poor , a man for equality(ish) etc how could you not love him?, The man asked people for a life of service and obedience to the spaghetti monster , hardly a socialist

[kromando33]

Do you not consider Venezuela as well? After all, its far closer to Cuba than most countries are.
Not even close, does private industry exist in Venezuela? Do the 'Miami class' still sit around in their mansions? If Chavez can get the guts to socialize all private production I may change my mind, but at the moment he is too accommodating to the bourgeois power structure, and too obsessed with welfare capitalism and bourgeois parliamentary systems.

[RedAnarchist]

I know its not perfect, but its hardly the US or China is it?

[kromando33]

I know its not perfect, but its hardly the US or China is it?
Yes well that's not what I meant, their are levels of progressiveness. But Chavez's actions so far indicate to me not a desire to overthrow the existing social relations, but simply to reform them, he needs to get rid of the bourgeois political structure he now inhabits, and replace it with a model of revolutionary proletarian control and a vanguard party.

[Coggeh]

Ok I'm i seeing things here , A Stalinist and an anarchist fighting over the integrity of a "socialist" nation , with the Stalinist critiquing it and anarchist defending it ?

Things have change since I left :)

Cuba is still a Christian country , the state are building churches now a days . It was always a roman catholic country and Castro didn't step on that which is fine , but he did go against catholic teachings and legalize abortions , gay civil partnerships (only after a genocidal war on them first )adoption rights for same sex marriages etc

[RedAnarchist]

Ok I'm i seeing things here , A Stalinist and an anarchist fighting over the integrity of a "socialist" nation , with the Stalinist critiquing it and anarchist defending it ?

Things have change since I left :)

Cuba is still a Christian country , the state are building churches now a days . It was always a roman catholic country and Castro didn't step on that which is fine , but he did go against catholic teachings and legalize abortions , gay civil partnerships (only after a genocidal war on them first )adoption rights for same sex marriages etc


I was talking how Venezuela is not perfect. I'm not defending it, I'm just saying that it is a lot closer to Cuba than to more capitalistic countries.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

No I don't think it's even possible to be a leftist and a Christian, leftism at the least implies progressive attitudes, Christianity is pre-industrial and thus irrelevant. And for every 1 'leftist; Christian their are 100 ignorant bigots.


Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree then because our definition of what is and isn't a Leftist differs. That criteria of Leftist = non-religion would exclude some key socialists like King.

As some probably already know I think Marx misunderstood the role of religion and how it came about. Religion does appear to predate class relations.

[Nakidana]

I seriously doubt 88% of the world is Christian.

Well his comments about Christianity could basically apply to most mainstream religions today, and according to wikipedia 88% of the world population have a religion.

Thus I read it as a refusal to work with any "pre-industrial" religion whatsoever. This was also based on some of his posts from the "Castro endorses New Cuban church" thread.

kromando33 stated that in his opinion it is impossible to be a leftist and a Christian. If we are to work WITH people they have to be leftist in some way or another. Since kromando33 thinks Christians cannot be leftists, I read it as a refusal on his part to work with Christians or any other peoples of faith.

To be honest, I think that position is completely out of touch with reality.


Guess what, about 99.99% of the worlds population also live under bourgeois dictatorship, I guess that also means that 99.99% of the worlds population will refuse to work with me:eek:

But this is a straw man. It's not the Christians who are refusing to work with you, it's you who is refusing to work with anyone who calls himself a Christian on the grounds that every Christian is a reactionary. Even Lenin didn't have this relationship with people of religion.

[RGacky3]

The first century Christians Practised a form of Communism, where everything was held communally.

Jesus could be considered a Socialist in the broadest sense of the term, considering he was for equality and human solidarity and dispised the exploitation of the Jewish wealthy.

But its important to remember that Jesus was A-Political, he was'nt a political revolutionary, he was a religious revolutoinary, his social leanings were secondary. Jesus refused to become King when it was pushed on him, and when asked my pontious pilate about his Kingdom, he made it clear it was not an earthly one, but a heavenly one.

[SouthernBelle82]

Thank you. Even Chavez is Catholic. However I'm not sure if he's a practicing Catholic however. But none the less my personal beliefs is one of many reason's why I'm a communist. My personal opinion of religion is it's between me and the God I believe in. Not me, my God and my government. Marx didn't believe in God and I respect that just like me having my own beliefs should be respected even if you don't like my beliefs or agree with them. As long as there's society there's going to be religion whether Christianity, Islam or paganism or whatever it is. As long as there is the seperation of church and state and the government not involved at all with government and it's private and personal then that's how it should be.


You can be a Leftist and not a Marxist. Religious communists should be welcomed; if Marx was right religion should naturally fall apart; if he was wrong then no harm was done opening up our arms to fellow comrades.

[kromando33]

Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree then because our definition of what is and isn't a Leftist differs. That criteria of Leftist = non-religion would exclude some key socialists like King.

As some probably already know I think Marx misunderstood the role of religion and how it came about. Religion does appear to predate class relations.
'Predate class', lol, classes have always existed, except in different form, in communal tribal modes of production grade society into classes.

[Dean]

There is no purpose of being human.

MAybe there isn't a single, objective certainty which is applicable across the board. But I do think that there are important human faculties which are central to our development and self-actuation, such as our productive capabilities. I think, as a whole, these human traits can form a cohesive rationale for human purpose.

[kromando33]

GeneCosta, I am still waiting for you to answer me, to say that class relations haven't always existed is a pretty big hole in your beliefs if you claim to be a Marxist.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

GeneCosta, I am still waiting for you to answer me, to say that class relations haven't always existed is a pretty big hole in your beliefs if you claim to be a Marxist.

I'm not a Marxist. I only agree with Marx on the principles of a 1.) transition stage and 2.) historical materialism. I'm actually one of those religious communists, albeit a godless one: Taoism.

[kromando33]

I'm not a Marxist. I only agree with Marx on the principles of a 1.) transition stage and 2.) historical materialism. I'm actually one of those religious communists, albeit a godless one: Taoism.

Wow, that sounds a bit contradictory to me, so if you accept Marx's historical analysis then naturally you must see the past as the history of class struggles, correct? I mean that's what it is. Are you saying then that you only partially accept his analysis? That you believe that religion existed before class? Because saying that classes haven't always existed (albeit in different forms) is a pretty solid rejection of Marxism in full.

Also if you accept historical materialism then you see the role that religion plays:

The basis of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. And, in truth, religion is consciousness of self and the self-feeling of a man who has not yet found himself or has lost himself again. Also, man is not an abstract being existing outside the world. Man--that is, the world of men, the state, society. This state, this society, produces religion--an inverted consciousness of the world--because the world itself is an inverted world. . . . It is the imaginary realisation of the human essence, necessary because the human essence has not true reality. . . .
Religious misery is at once the expression of real misery and a protest against real misery. Religion is the sigh of the hard-pressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, the spirit of unspiritual conditions. It is the opium of the people.


Although personally I don't care, to be a Marxist and religious at the same time is pretty contradictory in my book. How I see it, atheism is the natural thing for a Marxist accepting materialism.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Just a friendly concern: do you think Marx was right about everything?

I think religion predates class relations, yes. Even as a Taoist I realize that many hold onto their supernatural beliefs because of personal conflict -- conflict that will still occur under communism -- like the loss of a loved one. Organized religion is a completely different matter.

[Kitskits]

A) There was no capitalism when "jesus" was (or is claimed that was) born. So he wasn't an anti-capitalist as I am not anti-cyborgist because it simply doesn't exist.

B) Leftist doesn't go in a comparative nature (i.e. leftist for his time, centrist for now etc). You should say more leftist than most at that time. Even if you could say this keep in mind that Thatcher was more leftist than Pinochet. So?

C) Jesus couldn't be 'socialist' because there was no capitalism back then. EXCUSE ME... Do you mean that Jesus wanted a workers' state which would suppress the bourgeois? The bourgeo-what? -- This is the answer you'll get if you told that to ppl in like 40 AD.

Oh, and I want a humans' state to suppress the cyborg class.

[chimx]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/60/Worldwide_percentage_of_Adherents_by_Religion.png/800px-Worldwide_percentage_of_Adherents_by_Religion.png

Jesus was obviously not a socialist for reasons stated, but many contemporary anarchists view him as a role model for his opposition to the state. Luke 4:8 specifically says that the devil commands all governments. The Book of Revelation is a giant condemnation of Roman oppression. There are other examples.