Anti-Islamism is Racism

[Sky]

The argument that Islam is not a race is a fallacy which seeks to justify hate-filled biggotry against Muslims. In many countries, Muslims are recognized as a distinct nationality due primarily to their distinct faith.

In China, Chinese Muslims are classified by the Hui nationality even though they are identical in all other respects to their Han Chinese brothers. Because the Hui are Muslims, they have a distinct way of life. Hence, they are appropriately classified as a separate nationality. At least in the Chinese context, the dissemination of anti-Islam propaganda constitutes racial and national hatred.

In Yugoslavia, Muslims have been classified as a separate nationality. Yet, these Muslims do not differ at all from the Serbs and Croats in terms of language and origins. They are a separate nationality because their unique faith sets them apart from neighboring peoples.

In Sri Lanka, Muslims are a distinct nationality that are classified as "Moors" that speak Tamil. Except for their religion they are not significantly different than other Tamil speakers.

[Dr Mindbender]

i thought the term was 'islamophobia' not 'anti-islamism'.

without meaning to be pedantic, your post does not prove that islam is a race per se, since you have not pointed out a common denominator between the groups you have listed.

[Sky]

your post does not prove that islam is a race per se

Chinese Muslims in China are a separate nationality known as the Hui with their own homeland in the Ningxia Autonomous Region. A Hui can be an atheist yet simultaneously considered a Hui. By this criteria it is a manifestation of racism to disseminate anti-Islam propaganda. Other countries where Muslims have formed a distinct nationality include Yugoslavia and Sri Lanka.

[Luís Henrique]

1. Islam is not a race, thence "anti-Islamism" is not racism;
2. Since Islam is a set of ideas, it is open to intellectual confrontation. Anyone can confront any point of Islamic doctrine, or the whole of it, and state it is wrong, or reactionary, or stupid, and this is not racist neither bigoted;
3. Religious persecution against Muslisms, in itself, is bigotry, and should be shunned upon;
4. There is a definite trend to discriminate people of a given racial appearance (Middle Eastern and Mediterranic Caucasian, mostly), under the bigoted assumptions that anybody who looks like an Arab is an Arab, that every Arab is a Muslism, and that all Muslisms are dangerous terrorists.

Your attempts to conflate these very different issues are disgusting.

Luís Henrique

[Sky]

1. Islam is not a race, thence "anti-Islamism" is not racism
This is not a valid argument. Jews are neither a race nor a nation but are a religious group dispersed all over the world speaking various languages. Nevertheless hostility towards Jews is still racism.


2. Since Islam is a set of ideas, it is open to intellectual confrontation.

In many countries a Muslim is not a religious believer but is part of a distinct nationality. Case in point, the Hui are a distinct nationality in China solely due to their Islamic faith.

[Pirate Utopian]

But jews are an ethnicity. You can be religious jew and not be an ethnic jew and vice versa.

If a person from a "non-muslim race" changes his religion did he also change his "race"?, I mean muslims are a race and all...

[Fiskpure]

The people following the religion of Islam are workers too, even if religions do disgust me.

We can't blame them, I bet most of the people raised in an Islamic family, taught in an Islamic school, lived in an Islamic society and most of all; victim of Islamic propaganda would remain loyal to their ideology.

Even if I am a strongly against religions, these are just my thoughts. As humanity still has not learned that people cannot be forced to belive in something else (bet they never will).

Fiskpure.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

But jews are an ethnicity. You can be religious jew and not be an ethnic jew and vice versa.

If a person from a "non-muslim race" changes his religion did he also change his "race"?, I mean muslims are a race and all...

Believe it or not, you can be a religious Muslim and not an ethnic Muslim and Vice versa!

[jake williams]

Well I have a few things here to say, actually.

First off, whenever we start talking about "race" and "racism" and so on, you get into all sorts of semantic squabbles which I think are by and large a waste of time. While lexicon is not totally trivial and specific ideas should certainly be carefully considered, there's just too much to do to spend so much time on a lot of the things that come up.

Second, anti-Islamism/Islamophobia/etc. definitely seems to relate to racism, maybe even be caused, at least in part by it, particularly in one of its more recent forms. It seems to be connected to a certain quite racist intellectual history, and it seems also to be related to a certain sort of culture-racism and distaste for, specifically, Arabs and South Asians. With it having become fashionable, post-9/11, to come out and publicly decry Islam, all sorts of racist psychos are coming out of the woodwork, or in some cases simply out of their disguises.

Third, Islam certainly correlates with a broad and approximate (I wish there was a way that I could attach the "broad and approximate" qualifier to really virtually everything we talk about here) group of actual sort of, genetic ethnic origin - criticisms of "Islamic culture" etc. will de facto be primarily criticisms of south/southwestern Asia and the people who live there, and of the majorities of many groups of people.

To some extent though, a correlation of two factors does not necessarily mean criticizing the one is criticizing the poor. I mean, and these are bad examples and while I disagree with a lot of very important Islamic beliefs and teachings I don't want to broadside it for a few reasons, but if blacks are predominantly poor and poverty is predominately black, criticism of poverty isn't then made "racism". And if there's a certain genetic disease common among an ethnic group, criticism of the disease is not racism either. The analogy isn't perfect, but aspects of it certainly hold.

[Dimentio]

Even though I do not think that we should persecute Christians or Moslems because of their loyalty to fairy-tales and reactionary "books" which could have been written by baboons on crack, I do not think we should give them a cream file on the road either.

Criticism of Islam and even provocations against Islam is a legitime way of spreading information.

Is, or is not Sha'ariah law compatible with progressive ideals?


The argument that Islam is not a race is a fallacy which seeks to justify hate-filled biggotry against Muslims. In many countries, Muslims are recognized as a distinct nationality due primarily to their distinct faith.

In China, Chinese Muslims are classified by the Hui nationality even though they are identical in all other respects to their Han Chinese brothers. Because the Hui are Muslims, they have a distinct way of life. Hence, they are appropriately classified as a separate nationality. At least in the Chinese context, the dissemination of anti-Islam propaganda constitutes racial and national hatred.

In Yugoslavia, Muslims have been classified as a separate nationality. Yet, these Muslims do not differ at all from the Serbs and Croats in terms of language and origins. They are a separate nationality because their unique faith sets them apart from neighboring peoples.

In Sri Lanka, Muslims are a distinct nationality that are classified as "Moors" that speak Tamil. Except for their religion they are not significantly different than other Tamil speakers.

[Dimentio]

Chinese Muslims in China are a separate nationality known as the Hui with their own homeland in the Ningxia Autonomous Region. A Hui can be an atheist yet simultaneously considered a Hui. By this criteria it is a manifestation of racism to disseminate anti-Islam propaganda. Other countries where Muslims have formed a distinct nationality include Yugoslavia and Sri Lanka.

I am sorry to say it.. but WTF...

Just because one nominally "socialist" state has such an ethnic policy, does not make it right.

In the Soviet Union, homosexuality was seen as a bourgeoisie deviation. Homosexuals got 7 years in a labor camp.

Just because one (socialist or pseudo-socialist) state says a thing does not mean that it is so.

[Sky]

Just because one nominally "socialist" state has such an ethnic policy, does not make it right.
The nationality policies of the socialist states were arguably the most advanced in the world.

[Dimentio]

To not speak about their policies concerning sexual minorities...

You are making a fallacy by referring to an authority to verify your claims. It is like referring to Aristotle about race equality.

[Forward Union]

It's a complex issue.

Hatred of Islam as a religion is entirely justifed. It is a set of beliefs and practices, that are homophobic, sexist, racist, and anti-scientific. They fully opposed to the beliefs and practices of communsim, and therefore, we are allowed to oppose them.

As an institution, the Islamic church owns property and entrenches very real class dividies. Elsewhere Islam is used as a political tool (as all religions are) to send workers to kill other workers.

Hatred of Islam (as a faith) and Islamic institutions is entirely legitimate.

Hatered of Muslims isn't.

This we need to be clear on.

[Luís Henrique]

In many countries a Muslim is not a religious believer but is part of a distinct nationality. Case in point, the Hui are a distinct nationality in China solely due to their Islamic faith.

If so, evidently the People's Republic of China is getting things all wrong. Must be the influence of Western politically correct identity policies...

A Muslism is someone who believes that only Allah is God, and that Muhammad is his prophet. An atheist cannot be a Muslism.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Believe it or not, you can be a religious Muslim and not an ethnic Muslim and Vice versa!

Can you give us an example of each?

Luís Henrique

[Dimentio]

What is an ethnic muslim?

[Sky]

Can you give us an example of each?

Bosnian Muslims. They can be atheists yet still be considered Muslims.

[spartan]

A Muslim is someone who adheres to the religion Islam.

Their is no such thing as a Muslim "race" as Muslims are of all "races" of the world such as Arab, Asian, black, European, etc.

Islamaphobia has racist elements to it (Mostly because of the certain kind of people who adhere to it) but being against Islamism (Islamic religious Fascism) is not racist or wrong in anyway as Islamism is a reactionary force that doesnt seek the liberation of working people from the Bourgeoisie (Nay it upholds the Bourgeoisie's position in times of crises, and all it demands of them, in return, is that they say their prayers 5 times a day).

[Dros]

Muslim is by definition someone who is religiously dedicated to Islam. Look up the etimology.

Anti-Islamic sentiment is Islamophobia. It is not racism. That does not mean it is not bad. Your example about the Jews is equally flawed. That is called anti-semitism and it also is not racism.

One of the reasons this is hard to discuss is because "race" is such a nebulous term. But one thing is clear: ISLAM IS NOT A RACE!

[kromando33]

Islam is reactionary to the core, it's full of exhortations to sectarian violence, oppression of women, blind fanaticism, I like to think of it as the three 'S''s, self-pity, self-hatred and self-righteousness.

[black magick hustla]

anti-islamism based on purely intellectual confrontation is not racism. anarchism for example, has a long history of direct opposition to religion as a set of ideas. ypu cannot accuse an anarchist for racism for having anti-islam sentiments. it is true that the right wing has attacked arabs and other middle eastern folk with racism veiled with "anti-islam" sentiment, however it is completely intellectually dishonest to equate that to the anarchist criticism of islam.

if i attack thw quran based on purely intellectual confrontation is that racism?

i understand your motivations, but i think you are being overtly dishonest here.

[BobKKKindle$]

'Muslim' is not a 'race' because the concept of 'race' is a division based on inate biological chracteristics and external features, such as the colour of one's skin. Therefore, Islamophobia cannot be considered a form of racism, but rather discrimination based on religious faith, in the same way that Catholics sufferred persecution in Northern Ireland, even if they did not physically differ from the protestant population.

This does not mean that Islamophobia should be considered any less important because, as Socialists, we opposse all forms of discrimination as universally wrong, regardless of whether the characteristic which identifies someone as a target for discrimination is belief-system or some aspect of personal appearence, as in the case of 'race'.

Islam, as a religion, is implicitly anti-racist, as Muslims are urged to identify as members of the Ummah, a global community composed of all believers, regardless of their ethnic origin.

Criticism of religion is distinct from Islamophobia, which entails the misrepresentation of Islamic theology, and the actions of the Islamic community, in order to advance a divisive political program.

[Devrim]

The argument that Islam is not a race is a fallacy which seeks to justify hate-filled biggotry against Muslims.

The anti Islamic campaign in the west is a racist campaign. That doesn't mean that Islam is a race though.

It is an absurd idea. It would mean for example, that my wife (who is not a Muslim) is a different 'race' to her parents (who are).

The racist campaign, however, is against all people from the Middle East, and South Asia. My wife went to Italy last year where she was informed by a waiter that she was a terrorist. I am not a Muslim, and don't come from a Muslim background. That doesn't really matter if you are travelling on an Arab passport.

I actually think that this view is a very 'western' way of looking at things. If you lived in a 'Muslim' country, you would realise that the word applies to those who believe in God.
Devrim

[Luís Henrique]

Bosnian Muslims. They can be atheists yet still be considered Muslims.

Maybe ignorant westerns and the Western Press consider them so. But I doubt it very much that any Muslism, Bosnian or not, would agree. Those who don't believe in one God, and in Muhammad being His prophet, are not Muslisms, and not considered as such by believers.

Luís Henrique

[Vanguard1917]

2. Since Islam is a set of ideas, it is open to intellectual confrontation. Anyone can confront any point of Islamic doctrine, or the whole of it, and state it is wrong, or reactionary, or stupid, and this is not racist neither bigoted;

I think that that's the key point to make here. Islam does not have the right to be protected from this. Unless we've become bourgeois cultural relativists who believe that it's 'authoritarian' to challenge the worldview of others...


At least in the Chinese context, the dissemination of anti-Islam propaganda constitutes racial and national hatred.

Then you have to look at the phenomenon in its concrete context: where is the propaganda coming from; for what political purpose; against whom, and so on. Historically, communists have distributed anti-Islam propaganda, as have bourgeois forces. Context is key.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Luís Henrique

I can try.

Well, take a white person from the UK. Say it is a woman. She marries a muslim man, and she converts to Islam. And, for some reason, maybe because he Muslim friends do, she wears a head scarf.

So when she is out, she will be identified as Muslim, by both Muslims and non Muslims.

For number two, well i went to school with a fuck load of Muslims, all of whom were either Asian or black. But, even though they were Muslim, they never went to their religious practice at the mosque, they drunk beer and had girlfriends. Yet, even the ones i have kept in touch with, still identify as Muslim and are identified as Muslim especially by racists. Their families are Muslim, and they calibrate the religious holidays.

And remember ethnicity includes
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture)cultural (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture), linguistic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic), religious (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion), behavioural (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_behaviour) or biological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race) traits. *from the wiki*

[Luís Henrique]

Luís Henrique

I can try.

Well, take a white person from the UK. Say it is a woman. She marries a muslim man, and she converts to Islam. And, for some reason, maybe because he Muslim friends do, she wears a head scarf.

So when she is out, she will be identified as Muslim, by both Muslims and non Muslims.

I would say she is a Muslism.


For number two, well i went to school with a fuck load of Muslims, all of whom were either Asian or black. But, even though they were Muslim, they never went to their religious practice at the mosque, they drunk beer and had girlfriends. Yet, even the ones i have kept in touch with, still identify as Muslim and are identified as Muslim especially by racists. Their families are Muslim, and they calibrate the religious holidays.

And remember ethnicity includes [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture"] *from the wiki*

If they were Catholics, we would call them "lapsed Catholics". Not "ethnic Catholics".

Do you have any reason to think they did not believe in God?

Luís Henrique

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Well in Ireland, Catholicism is essentially an ethnicity.

But, i don't know if they believe in god, i would say some do, and others don't.

[Autonome-Antifa]

ANTI Religion is Not RASCISM
ANTI Zioism IS NOT ANTI Semitisim

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

well comrade, some right wingers use religion as a cover for racism. The right wingers are devious like this, surely you cannot deny that!

[An archist]

well comrade, some right wingers use religion as a cover for racism. The right wingers are devious like this, surely you cannot deny that!
That's obvious, but saying that being against Islam is being racist is definitely a bridge too far.

[Luís Henrique]

Well in Ireland, Catholicism is essentially an ethnicity.

So, an Irish Catholic could convert to Islam, or Calvinism, and remain ethnically Catholic?

Luís Henrique

[Comrade Rage]

The argument that Islam is not a race is a fallacy which seeks to justify hate-filled biggotry against Muslims.That argument is a fallacy. There are several people who have no problem with Arabs, but are disgusted by the reactionary line taken by Islamic fundamentalists. I am one such example.
The fundamentalists' defenders in the West have traditionally tried to paint Muslims as a homogenous religion that overwhelmingly supports the far-right tendency that is often expressed by a few. Ironically that is the same line that capitalist heads of state and media outlets have adopted as well. Now you seek to further confuse people with identifying the Muslims as a race?!


But jews are an ethnicity. You can be religious jew and not be an ethnic jew and vice versa.Actually Jews are not an ethnicity. Jews are a religious group, and the majority of the groups followers are Semites. That's why that brand of racism is called Anti-Semitism.

[Luís Henrique]

Actually Jews are not an ethnicity. Jews are a religious group, and the majority of the groups followers are Semites. That's why that brand of racism is called Anti-Semitism.

Nope. The majority of Jews are Aryan, and the majority of semites are not Jewish. The reason it's called anti-semitism is that words aren't created after logical thought.

Luís Henrique

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

So, an Irish Catholic could convert to Islam, or Calvinism, and remain ethnically Catholic?

Luís Henrique

Well, i really think its probably likely. you could probably face the same discrimination from the British army as other Irish Catholics, even though you have become a Muslim.

I'm not 100% though to be honest :confused:

[Luís Henrique]

Well, i really think its probably likely. you could probably face the same discrimination from the British army as other Irish Catholics, even though you have become a Muslim.

I'm not 100% though to be honest :confused:
But are the British Army prejudices the defining issue regarding ethnicity? And if the only difference between an Irish Catholic and an Irish Protestant is their respective religion, how would the British Army tell if an Irish Protestant person was born Catholic or not? Do they have a different appearance, accent, or...?

Luís Henrique

[RedKnight]

But are the British Army prejudices the defining issue regarding ethnicity? And if the only difference between an Irish Catholic and an Irish Protestant is their respective religion, how would the British Army tell if an Irish Protestant person was born Catholic or not? Do they have a different appearance, accent, or...?

Luís Henrique Historicly, Irish protestants were descended from colonists sent by King James I, from Scotland. They are both celtic, but the majority of Catholics are indiginous to Ireland, while the protestants are not.

[spartan]

Historicly, Irish protestants were descended from colonists sent by King James I, from Scotland. They are both celtic, but the majority of Catholics are indiginous to Ireland, while the protestants are not.

Yes but you cant tell which is which via appearence!

The Nazis used to see if someone had a circumcised penis to detect if he was Jewish.

The trouble though is that this method failed when the Nazis got to Bosnia, as they encountered white muslim men who also had circumcised penises just like light skinned Jewish men.


Nope. The majority of Jews are Aryan, and the majority of semites are not Jewish. The reason it's called anti-semitism is that words aren't created after logical thought.

What is an "Aryan"?

And Jews were originally (Though i am sure intermarriage has now had its effect) Semites (Just like Arabs).

The reason that European Jews look like all other white Europeans is because they have been living in the same cold enviroment as white Europeans for centuries.

When you see modern day Israeli Jews, they now have very dark skin, due to the warm enviroment that they now live in, which is what most Jews would have had when they first emerged as a distinct people in the middle east thousands of years ago.

If you are going by the "Aryan" (Indo-European) example you will find that there has never been an Aryan Semetic people.

[Devrim]

The reason that European Jews look like all other white Europeans is because they have been living in the same cold enviroment as white Europeans for centuries.

When you see modern day Israeli Jews, they now have very dark skin, due to the warm enviroment that they now live in, which is what most Jews would have had when they first emerged as a distinct people in the middle east thousands of years ago.

This is completly unscientific nonsense.

Devrim

[spartan]

This is completly unscientific nonsense.

How so?

Peoples skin colour is shaped by how cold or warm the enviroment they live in is.

I know lots of third generation British black people who look Italian because their skin colour is so light brown due to them not being exposed to the sun (Britain has very cold weather) as much as they would be in say the Caribbean (Which has very warm weather).

This is why skin colour is so unimportanat as it tans or fades in whatever specific enviroment that you are in.

[Dimentio]

Partially yes, but that takes a considerably longer amount of time than 2.000 years.

The truth is that there are two main Jewish ethnicites, Ashkenazi (Khazar) Jews and Sefardic (Semitic) Jews. The Askhenazi mostly dwelt in Poland and Eastern Europe, and were originally from a Turkish tribe which converted to Judaism in the 8th century.

[spartan]

The truth is that there are two main Jewish ethnicites, Ashkenazi (Khazar) Jews and Sefardic (Semitic) Jews. The Askhenazi mostly dwelt in Poland and Eastern Europe, and were originally from a Turkish tribe which converted to Judaism in the 8th century.

There is also a third Mesopotamian branch called the Mizrahi Jews who never emigrated to Europe but instead stayed in the middle east (Then under Islamic control).

[Wanted Man]

Why obscure the issue by redefining terms? Opposing Islamism is not "racist". However, discrimination of muslims on the base of their religion is often paired with racism against Arab people, or even anybody with a dark skin colour. At any rate, we're dealing with discrimination, and that's just as wrong.

[Devrim]

How so?

Peoples skin colour is shaped by how cold or warm the enviroment they live in is.

I know lots of third generation British black people who look Italian because their skin colour is so light brown due to them not being exposed to the sun (Britain has very cold weather) as much as they would be in say the Caribbean (Which has very warm weather).

This is why skin colour is so unimportanat as it tans or fades in whatever specific enviroment that you are in.

It takes thousands of years to change. I would suggest third generation British blacks probably look lighter because they have some white ancestory.

There is a difference between tanning, and skin colour.

Devrim