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Die Neue Zeit
3rd November 2007, 19:55
[Or is the organizational question inherently part of the strictly/directly materialist analysis? :confused: ]

To start off, Lenin treated the concept of organization as its own "question," and I was inspired by such separation in some of my recent analysis.

I started off on this board by stating somewhere that Russia was already materially ripe for a traditional bourgeois revolution since the Crimean war, long before Stolypin became the prime minister (after "Bloody Sunday"), and before Lenin himself was born! Also, Russia was ripe for "revolutionary democracy" in the 1890s, thanks to the accelerated economic programs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_history,_1892-1917#Accelerated_industrialization) of one Sergey White (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Witte) (the developments being commented on in Lenin's The Development of Capitalism in Russia).

However, such revolutions (bourgeois-democratic or revolutionary-democratic) didn't happen spontaneously. As usual, "the devil is in the details."

Now, before someone here cries out "Great Men of History" or even "Ideologist" (sorry if my humour is poor this morning), I'm not one such analyst (coincidentally, those folks who subscribe to the "Great Men" crap are basically saying that some guys came out of the blue spontaneously and fulfilled their historical roles).

Last night, as I peeked into this Learning thread on Stalin's rise to power (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=72409), I noted one sweeping generalization being made (as sweeping and as generalized as the "analysis" of the "Great Men" folks, but this time by the "strictly/directly" materialist side): civil war conditions.

Before I comment on the Learning thread material, I'll go back to the material above on capitalist development in Russia and introduce a fourth perspective (after "Great Men," "Ideology," and "strict/direct" materialism): organization. Simply put, Russia's masses were not sufficiently organized at that time to enact either a proper bourgeois-democratic revolution or a revolution for "revolutionary democracy" in their respective periods (post-Crimean War and under both Stolypin and White). The high levels of illiteracy certainly doesn't help the Ideologists' case or the "Great Men" folks (communication). By the time of March 1917, there were still high levels of illiteracy, but the high levels of regimentation and organization resulting from a third imperialist war in just sixty years (after the Crimean war and the Russian-Japanese war) and from the creation of soviets helped the revolutionary cause immensely. Also, although the Bolsheviks themselves were hardly the organized folks lionized by Soviet propaganda, the proliferation of soviets and factory committees helped the revolutionary cause immensely.

Now, on to Stalin, his bureaucratic bunch, and my two (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=72409&view=findpost&p=1292405670) posts (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=72409&view=findpost&p=1292407266) in the Learning thread (but briefly): no matter how bad the civil war conditions were, no matter how many posts Stalin himself held simultaneously (as noted by Preobrazhensky) (http://www.whatnextjournal.co.uk/Pages/Back/Wnext19/Stalin.html) before that critical moment in 1922, no matter how much "will to power" he had (and ideology was irrelevant at this point, anyway), Stalin and his ignored bureaucratic bunch would not have prevailed over the more prominent trade-union bureaucracy (represented by Tomsky, Shlyapnikov, and Kollontai) and other emerging but equally prominent bureaucratic factions (including the "Bonapartist" military-bureaucratic pressures that Trotsky himself faced) without a key organization. It was neither the Secretariat nor the Orgburo itself (both of which Stalin presided over as General Secretary, a post that mattered little politically even without what I'm about to say); it was a little known Central Committee section known as "Uchraspred."

[Later on, the resurrection and permanence of the "Partyocracy" after Stalin's death was due to corresponding unknowns utilized by Khrushchev and his "Partyocrats," and not so much due to the Secretariat itself. (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=69965)]

Last, but not least, is the question of Hitler and the Nazis. Trotsky may have wrote some fine stuff regarding the petit-bourgeoisie's role in the rise of fascist states, but he, just like the "Great Men" folks and the "Ideologists," ignored the role of organization. Prospective fascist states have their material conditions (usually a political and/or economic defeat or mere eclipse of some sort, plus industrialist $$$), "masses" of petit-bourgeoisie and "Great Men" rabble-rousers, but left unorganized or organized improperly, fascism won't succeed. [If I recall correctly, shortly before Hitler's rise to power, France was the most anti-Semitic country in Europe, and it was long since eclipsed by Britain as the leading imperialist power.]

Hit The North
4th November 2007, 15:08
Without commenting too much on the content of your analysis (sorry, comrade, I don't have the time right now :) ) isn't it the case that a historical materialist analysis should take into account all these things you list as interacting in a dialectical unity? In other words, isolating any of the phenomena, whether material conditions, active individuals, ideologies and available or contingent organizations, from each other provides an incomplete picture.

So to address your substantive claim: although organization is important, it has to be located within the totality of the historical milieu. The concrete is the result of many determinations. For historical materialists, the material conditions have a decisive influence, nevertheless, the other factors are not merely passive.

Die Neue Zeit
12th January 2008, 22:03
You sounded a bit on the mystical side there before clarifying with that last point.

Hit The North
13th January 2008, 11:40
You sounded a bit on the mystical side there before clarifying with that last point.

I understand that Rosa has set a trend on RevLeft that whenever anyone uses the word dialectical they are branded as "mystical". Nevertheless, comrade, I'd be interested in understanding what you think is "a bit mystical" in my post above.

gilhyle
13th January 2008, 13:12
It seems to me there is too much fear of the 'Great Men of History' type explanation. Trotysky's history of the Russian Revolution displays a method which allows that personality is a moment in a successful narrative, but that one must then also ask why that particular personality had that particular impact at that time.

On the substantive issues, you havent mentioned the weakness of the bourgeois class in Russia around 1900 (because of the way serfdom was unwound and the wide regional variation in social structure withinn the Tsarist empire etc) which was surely decisive in what happened.

On Stalin's rise to power, it seems bizarre to argue that Stalin rose to power because of ANY orgaizational role he had within the party, when the it is the growth of the Soviet State which patently opened up the possibility of a Stalin-type person operating a bonapartist role between the various elements of the bureaucracy. The org. question must be secondary to that, while a moment.

Springmeester
13th January 2008, 15:01
It seems to me there is too much fear of the 'Great Men of History' type explanation. Trotysky's history of the Russian Revolution displays a method which allows that personality is a moment in a successful narrative, but that one must then also ask why that particular personality had that particular impact at that time.

On the substantive issues, you havent mentioned the weakness of the bourgeois class in Russia around 1900 (because of the way serfdom was unwound and the wide regional variation in social structure withinn the Tsarist empire etc) which was surely decisive in what happened.

On Stalin's rise to power, it seems bizarre to argue that Stalin rose to power because of ANY orgaizational role he had within the party, when the it is the growth of the Soviet State which patently opened up the possibility of a Stalin-type person operating a bonapartist role between the various elements of the bureaucracy. The org. question must be secondary to that, while a moment.

No one here has mentioned that a communist party is a democratic organization and that Stalin was elected democraticly by the members of the communist party. Also, I would like to say that the proletarian organizational structure has to be of a democratic nature. The strength of the working class lies within the power of the masses and so in the collective unity of that class and the organization of that class. But why would a class-concious workers organize himself within in non-democratic party? A class-concious worker will know that the emancipation of the working class lies in his active role in political issues.

Stalin did make mistakes and it is evident that these mistakes have led tot a revisionist take-over in 1956, I don't have enough time now but I will post on this subject. I agree with Citizen Zero that we have to see the material conditions within their dialectical unity. But I don't understand at all what could be mystical about that.

Die Neue Zeit
13th January 2008, 17:27
I understand that Rosa has set a trend on RevLeft that whenever anyone uses the word dialectical they are branded as "mystical". Nevertheless, comrade, I'd be interested in understanding what you think is "a bit mystical" in my post above.

Not quite. I sometimes use the word "dialectic" and related adjectives (spontaneity and organization, in particular). However, the word "unity" coming after "dialectical" rang a few bells in my head.


On the substantive issues, you haven't mentioned the weakness of the bourgeois class in Russia around 1900 (because of the way serfdom was unwound and the wide regional variation in social structure within the Tsarist empire etc) which was surely decisive in what happened.

To be fair, though, I did say the word "masses":

Simply put, Russia's masses were not sufficiently organized at that time to enact either a proper bourgeois-democratic revolution or a revolution for "revolutionary democracy" in their respective periods (post-Crimean War and under both Stolypin and White).

Within the context of a semi-feudal society, that word can apply to the bourgeoisie (think "le troisieme etat" - the Third Estate in the French Revolution). :)


On Stalin's rise to power, it seems bizarre to argue that Stalin rose to power because of ANY orgaizational role he had within the party, when the it is the growth of the Soviet State which patently opened up the possibility of a Stalin-type person operating a bonapartist role between the various elements of the bureaucracy. The org. question must be secondary to that, while a moment.

I didn't say that, though:

It was neither the Secretariat nor the Orgburo itself (both of which Stalin presided over as General Secretary, a post that mattered little politically even without what I'm about to say); it was a little known Central Committee section known as "Uchraspred."

The way I see it (and again I'll refer to Moshe Lewin here), I believe the Eighth Congress warned against the party taking a more active role in state administration (ie, it's OK for the party to be merged with Soviet power, but not with the state bureaucracy), no? Now, the civil war changed the dynamics such that Uchraspred also determined the assignments of party members to posts within state administration.

Stalin himself never was a member of Uchraspred, but upon becoming General Secretary, established a patron-client relationship with that Central Committee department (through Syrtsov) (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3955/is_n4_v48/ai_18606572). Without this relationship, he would have no influence on the "circular flow of power." Case in point: "General Secretary" Krestinsky, Stalin's predecessor.

Keep in mind that there was also the trade-union bureaucracy which Stalin didn't want to associate himself with (hence my term "state bureaucracy").

Luís Henrique
15th January 2008, 15:28
Reestablished from the original thread started by Jacob Richter...

Luís Henrique