the middle class fascination for religion (especially judeo-christianity)

[Dr Mindbender]

A lot of the theory suggests that post revolution, Religion will wither and die away along with the other symptoms of class disparity. However, in my sphere of experience, one phenomenon seems to contradict this.

While theism may be on the decline in working class homes, the petit-beourgoisie and middle class remain almost as rigidly conservative in their god fearing attitudes as they did in the first half of the last century. This does not add up, since with the above theory taken into consideration individuals born into such decadence and privelige should not be so zestful in their search for a 'higher purpose'. While i accept that this may be concentrated around rural populus, there must be a reason why suburban members of the management class also follow religious doctrine.

[Publius]

Might want to look, at least in the US, at religion's ties to economic conservativism. Therein lies a possible answer.

[Pawn Power]

I don't really think the "middle class" (what ever that may be) is any more religiously conservative then the working class.

If you are defining the "middle class" as a class of slightly higher economic status and job stability then that of the working class then I think (at least from the statistics that I have seen) that the "middle class" is less willing to be religiously conservative. Most of the statistics point to a correlation between higher eduction (habitually connected with economic status) and decreased religious adherence and atheism and secularism.

[jake williams]

Yeah, my understanding of it is basically PP's.

Could you explain a bit more, what you see of the "middle class getting more religious"?

[Cult of Reason]

A quick question, if you please, US: are you basing your conclusions on observations within just the six counties, the entirety of Ireland, the entire British Isles or what? According to Wikipedia, Ireland is one of the more religious European areas in general, especially compared with the neighbouring regions of Britain and France.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Europe#Religiosity

[Enragé]

sociological research in the netherlands at least have concluded, various times, that religion is waning, though there is something of a resurgence but only in the sense of a decrease in the decrease of the religious and in the sense of alternative ideas regarding some plain of existence above this one, the existence of a higher power etc (but not religion).

[Enragé]

also
This does not add up, since with the above theory taken into consideration individuals born into such decadence and privelige should not be so zestful in their search for a 'higher purpose'

On the contrary.
1. People in a privileged position often know in some way that they are priviliged, they then need justification for it. The ideological isnt seperate from the material, but also not from social relations of power.
2. The traditional middle class (i.e those who own their own means of production) is the most insecure class of capitalism. They need something to hold on to, and there is a correlation between authoritarian views and the traditional middle class (both shown in sociological research as well as history.. who were the base for the fascist movements of the 20th century? The middle class, petit-bourgeois.)

[al8]

For religious statistics you should check out the life values survey (http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/) that is conducted round the world in about every country at 10 year intervals. Its questionaires are standardized, so you can compare countries.

It's a bit of a maze but you will find tons of data there. It's all stored and can be crossreferenced to other questions. Clik -> Online data analysis and choose country and survey year and press Continue. And then there is a section (nr.7) thats called Religion and Moral.

We can see with Netherlands that in 1981 25,2% did not belive in a god and 18 years later in 1999 39,4%. That's an increase of 14,2%!

I've seen similar trends in all the developed industrial capitalist countries of Western Europe.

Great Britain; 1981 (15,8%) 1999 (23,8%) 8% increase
Denmark; 1981 (26,9%) 1999 (28%) 1% increase
Norway; 1981 (22,7%) 1999 (29,5%) 6,8% increase
Sweden; 1981 (34,1%) 1999 (40,6%) 6,8% increase
France; 1981 (29,1%) 1999 (39,1%) 10% increase

[Dr Mindbender]

A quick question, if you please, US: are you basing your conclusions on observations within just the six counties, the entirety of Ireland, the entire British Isles or what? According to Wikipedia, Ireland is one of the more religious European areas in general, especially compared with the neighbouring regions of Britain and France.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Europe#Religiosity

Im basing this on experiences of both sides of the irish sea, as i have lived on both. Europe and the netherlands I cant speak about, Im guessing the differences are due to cultural and historical reasons. I have observed UK and Irish church congregations for reasons i wont go into, and it is clear to me that the vast majority were not of the flat capped stock that you'd expect to be attypical working class people. Quite the contrary, they were all equipped with their suntan, luxury apparell and fast cars.

I can agree with the theory that the petit-beourgoisie require rationale to defend their position, in that in the absence of informed materialist debate they can fall back on the old cop out of medieval dogma. However, Im still not sure I appreciate why post revolution, the want to go to church will simply 'die out' bearing in mind the above circumstances. Is it possible that post revolutionary theolgians will cling onto strains of liberation theology to defend the revolution in much the same way the capitalist classes use religion to defend their status?

[Dr Mindbender]

I've seen similar trends in all the developed industrial capitalist countries of Western Europe.

Great Britain; 1981 (15,8%) 1999 (23,8%) 8% increase
Denmark; 1981 (26,9%) 1999 (28%) 1% increase
Norway; 1981 (22,7%) 1999 (29,5%) 6,8% increase
Sweden; 1981 (34,1%) 1999 (40,6%) 6,8% increase
France; 1981 (29,1%) 1999 (39,1%) 10% increase

those stats dont take into consideration class status. This thread is referring specifically to the religious attitudes of the privileged.

[proleterian fist]

They have got a fascination for religion but after real communism in the world,nobody will be needed to god who is unable to manage the world.

[Dr Mindbender]

They have got a fascination for religion but after real communism in the world,nobody will be needed to god who is unable to manage the world.
then why is it presently that those with least material reasoning to pursue god are the most rabid in this mentality?

[kromando33]

These middle classes are just a remnant of the feudal religious-communes, and are trying to restore the perceived or real conditions of that 'good old time' of close-knit family and religion etc, eventually most will be forced into proletarianization by the bourgeois and they may cling even closer to their dogmatism or maybe become revolutionary.

[al8]

those stats dont take into consideration class status. This thread is referring specifically to the religious attitudes of the privileged.

Well then what numbers do you have? You know hunches don't count for much.

You could try to cross-referncing other variables that are indirect indicators of priviledge or class status such as education, employment status or income level.

[al8]

I'm not going to do all the work for you Ulster Socialist. I incourage you to check your facts. This international standardized survey is way more powerful in giving a general picture of things than (limited) personal anacdotes.

[Cult of Reason]

I would offer my own anecdote: it seems to me that more poor people are religious than the 'middle class', but that those of the 'middle class' who ARE religious are much more explicit that they believe, make more of a show of it, go to church more often, that sort of thing. I attribute this to more money and free time.

[Enragé]

We can see with Netherlands that in 1981 25,2% did not belive in a god and 18 years later in 1999 39,4%. That's an increase of 14,2%!


err what the hell?

its an impossibility that it ever was 25.2% since the christian denominations in the netherlands have always held much more. Roman catholics alone have always been above 30% (and roman catholics are, or more accurately put have been a historical minority, they're now the largest denomination, at 30%). Official statistics of the dutch government place the number of religious in 1980 at 74%, decreasing to 59% in 2004.

[Dean]

err what the hell?

its an impossibility that it ever was 25.2% since the christian denominations in the netherlands have always held much more. Roman catholics alone have always been above 30% (and roman catholics are, or more accurately put have been a historical minority, they're now the largest denomination, at 30%). Official statistics of the dutch government place the number of religious in 1980 at 74%, decreasing to 59% in 2004.

The numbers are % of atheists, not religious. I was confused at first, too.

[proleterian fist]

then why is it presently that those with least material reasoning to pursue god are the most rabid in this mentality?

I couldn't understand exactly what you meant with this?

[al8]

err what the hell?

its an impossibility that it ever was 25.2% since the christian denominations in the netherlands have always held much more. Roman catholics alone have always been above 30% (and roman catholics are, or more accurately put have been a historical minority, they're now the largest denomination, at 30%). Official statistics of the dutch government place the number of religious in 1980 at 74%, decreasing to 59% in 2004.

Your confusing peoples state registration into religious denominations with peoples actual religious belief.
In the country that I live in people get automatically registered in the religious denomination of their mother at birth.(!) And this of cource leads to a great disparity between registation and belief.

I don't know if that's how it's done in the Netherlands. I have a difficulty finding the Netherland national statistic agency on the internet. I'm first of all not proficient enough in the language. But the general rule holds. In Sweden fx. everybody was automatically registered as members of the state Lutheren evangelical church of Sweden at birth prior ot 1996, if their parents where members* (http://www.uturkyrkan.se/om-oss/).

And Sweden is often regarded one of the most atheistic countries of the world. 46,6% did not believe there is god in 1999 according to the World values survey.

[Dr Mindbender]

I couldn't understand exactly what you meant with this?
the general consensus here seems to be, that post-revolution, the material and social conditioning for religion will simply die off. However, in my experience, those least affected by the symptoms of class disparity seem to have the most religious fervour.
I do not understand why this is the case, with the above theory in mind.

Also someone mentioned education as a factor. Surely someone with more education would be more inclined to shrug off the simplistic dogma of the theists, and with education being synomonous with privilege this argument offers little but more confusion.

[Dr Mindbender]

I'm not going to do all the work for you Ulster Socialist. I incourage you to check your facts. This international standardized survey is way more powerful in giving a general picture of things than (limited) personal anacdotes.
i wasnt aware that anyone had prepared a survey (or if that was even possible for that matter) using data based on class status.

[proleterian fist]

So do you say that you believe in god and general consensus must be abolished?

[Enragé]

Your confusing peoples state registration into religious denominations with peoples actual religious belief.
In the country that I live in people get automatically registered in the religious denomination of their mother at birth.(!) And this of cource leads to a great disparity between registation and belief.

I don't know if that's how it's done in the Netherlands. I have a difficulty finding the Netherland national statistic agency on the internet. I'm first of all not proficient enough in the language. But the general rule holds. In Sweden fx. everybody was automatically registered as members of the state Lutheren evangelical church of Sweden at birth prior ot 1996, if their parents where members* (http://www.uturkyrkan.se/om-oss/).

And Sweden is often regarded one of the most atheistic countries of the world. 46,6% did not believe there is god in 1999 according to the World values survey.

err yes, there is however evidence that spiritual belief is in fact on the return as well, though it isnt as conclusive.

But this isnt relevant here, you're talking about religion (especially judeo-christianity). This is not the same as spirituality, i.e some belief in god. The problem is not whether or not people think there is some dude in the sky or there is some mystical force (there are enough social revolutionaries, communists, whatever you wanna call 'em, both on the anarchist side (christian anarchism) and on the leninist-ish side (christian socialism), who are spiritual) the only problem with religion is that it is dogma, dogma that often leads to oppression. As for the latter that is decreasing.

[al8]

Well if you look into the survey (http://worldvaluessurvey.org) they also have a question in Religion and Morale -> Moral and religious beliefs -> Personal God vs. Spirit or Life Force(F062) Which askes;

Which of these statements comes closest to your beliefs?

1 Personal God
2 Spirit or life force
3 Don´t know what to think
4 No spirit God or life force

There you could see the difference in superstition that are more traditional (i.e a belief in a personal god) versus those who are not (a belief in some sort of spirit or life force). You can look if there is an increse or a decrese in loose spirituality versus rigid religiosity.

[al8]

...depening, of cource, on what geographical location you choose to looka at.

[Dr Mindbender]

So do you say that you believe in god and general consensus must be abolished?
was that question aimed at me?

The marxist take on religion to me, seems that the question of wether or not god exists or not is irrelevant, what does matter is the material and social conditioning that are symptomatic of religion and social divide.

[NorthStarRepublicML]

the general consensus here seems to be, that post-revolution, the material and social conditioning for religion will simply die off.

well history doesn't back that up ... states with anti-theist policies have never suceeded in eliminating religion ...

here is what Lenin said about the relationship between religion and the state:



Religion must be declared a private affair. In these words socialists usually express their attitude towards religion. But the meaning of these words should be accurately defined to prevent any misunderstanding. We demand that religion be held a private affair so far as the state is concerned. But by no means can we consider religion a private affair so far as our Party is concerned. Religion must be of no concern to the state, and religious societies must have no connection with governmental authority. Everyone must be absolutely free to profess any religion he pleases, or no religion whatever, i.e., to be an atheist, which every socialist is, as a rule. Discrimination among citizens on account of their religious convictions is wholly intolerable. Even the bare mention of a citizen's religion in official documents should unquestionably be eliminated. No subsidies should be granted to the established church nor state allowances made to ecclesiastical and religious societies. These should become absolutely free associations of like minded citizens, associations independent of the state. Only the complete fulfillment of these demands can put an end to the shameful and accursed past when the church lived in feudal dependence on the state, and Russian citizens lived in feudal dependence on the established church, when medieval, inquisitorial laws (to this day remaining in our criminal codes and on our statute-books) were in existence and were applied, persecuting men for their belief or disbelief, violating men's consciences, and linking cosy government jobs and government-derived incomes with the dispensation of this or that dope by the established church. Complete separation of Church and State is what the socialist proletariat demands of the modern state and the modern church.

The Russian revolution must put this demand into effect as a necessary component of political freedom.

[proleterian fist]

was that question aimed at me?

The marxist take on religion to me, seems that the question of wether or not god exists or not is irrelevant, what does matter is the material and are symptomatic of religion and social divide.

What I mean is according to Marxist theory,religion is an opium to people and generally middle class has got fascination on Religion.
and I believe after proleterian revolution,nobody will need to any religion.
Of course I believe that ask whether god exists or not,too.;)
I understood your former post wrong and therefore I wanted to ask.
Sorry for misunderstanding!