are we supposed to be 'conscious consumers'???

[R_P_A_S]

I guess we are all consumers, one way or an other. under capitalism we must buy, consume and so on. OK. As much as hate to associate my self with being a 'consumer' since it has a lot to do with supporting capitalism... I have no choice. I think most of us feel that way. OK.

BUT what's this about 'conscious consumers'.. people who shop with companies that are "green, environmentally conscious, ones that donate a portion of their profit to a cause or charity, etc, etc." this all ties up with the whole Organic thing. and unfortunately for the most part it ties in with having more money, and more on the middles class life style.. round and round we go.

We live in a society that is driven by profits. there for we are no brought up as kids or encourage throughout our adult life to look out for the environment, to 'shop consciously' and in the process exploit less, consume less and waste less.. that's not the American way. the American way is BIG!, FAST! EASY and CONVENIENT! i.e. unnecessary large vehicles, fast food establishments, TV microwavable dinners! and so on. Sadly but for the most part true. being a 'conscious consumer' has a lot to do with personal convenience than will. and it seems like on some parts of the world it has to do with having money to afford the organic food, the Starbucks coffee and the GAP (red)campaign clothes for example.

I can't help it but to feel that this 'conscious consumer, pro environmental battle' is one being fought with the wrong methods. How can capitalism and environmentalism coexist? don't they contradict one an other? So what exactly is this damn "conscious consumer" slogan? who's it really aimed it? people that have the money to spend it yet on an other capitalism venture with a nice fluffy green tag on it?

What's our stand on this? As revolutionaries?

Thanks.

[MT5678]

This conscious consumer thing is just a marketing ploy.
The truth is, as one person's sig put it, "capitalism is the pimp that turned earth into a ho". The market forced Sahel farmers to keep expanding their operations to get new land...and this exacerbates desertification. Businessmen cleared out vast swathes of Brazilian rainforest to gain land for cash crops.

More later.

[Comrade Rage]

You're right, it's an obvious ploy meant to derive profit from social awareness.

I don't buy into it.

[BobKKKindle$]

This movement is restricted to the small group of middle-class professionals who, in addition to caring about issues like the degradation of the environment and the rights of workers, have sufficient disposable income to actually purchase fair trade products and other goods that were, according to the retailers, produced ethically - these goods are often much more expensive than 'standard' products and so clearly most people do not have the luxury of shopping with an easy conscience.

Ethical consumerism actually shows how capitalism is able to 'co-opt' radicalism and turn political energy into a way to make profit - this movement (if it can be referred to as such) does not challenge the prevailing values of consumerism which guide behavior in a capitalist society, and only tries to give consumerism a more 'friendly' appearance. Clearly ethical consumerism is not revolutionary.

In general, Capitalism is deeply opposed to environmental sustainability, especially in developing countries, as the need to create conditions that are friendly to foreign investment (given the lack of domestic firms) has pushed governments to reduce their environmental standards, in order to compete with other countries in the same position, which over time results in a collapse of any regulations on what firms are allowed to do, so as to better suit the needs of multinationals. This process is commonly referred to as the 'race to the bottom'.

[kromando33]

The 'your a hypocrite because you buy things when your a socialist' is as old as dirt, and just as anti-communist. In contradiction we as revolutionaries have no choice but to use the instruments of bourgeois society against it, this is even true after the revolution. It's simply being practical.

[BobKKKindle$]

The 'your a hypocrite because you buy things when your a socialist' is as old as dirt, and just as anti-communist. In contradiction we as revolutionaries have no choice but to use the instruments of bourgeois society against it, this is even true after the revolution. It's simply being practical.

I'd agree with that. Even if it were possible to completely isolate oneself from exchange relations, doing so would do nothing to aid workers' struggles. It's not about the clothes you wear, or the places you choose to shop, it's about how you view the world and how you aim to change the world. That's why I don't understand anarchists who go to such great pains to grow their own food or only eat food they find in refuse bins - how does this encourage workers to overthrow capitalism? We need to engage ourselves in what's really important - supporting and intervening in workers' struggles, instead of examining each minute aspect of our individual lifestyles and trying to change anything we find to be 'unpure'.

By the way, kromando33, why haven't you replied to my comments in 'Marxism and Class War'?

[R_P_A_S]

wow GREAT discussion and points, thanks guys. So what are we supposed to do? what's our remedy?

I personally get sick to my stomach sitting around watching how Capitalism can make a market and profit out of every damn thing. And it only does it to sustain it self and to be able to get an upper hand on their competitors, its not like they really care about the earth and the living standards of their workers for say...

But what are we to do?

how do we attack this ploy, unmask it and "show" people how to "not shop or shop?" I understand we want revolution and the abolishment of the current system. But in the mean time? how do we tackle this issue?

The very essence of being healthy and conscious of our environment and earth's resources has been turned into nothing but a fucking commodity, what the fuck?

I mean for example I don't associate organic produce with fair trade, supporting local farmers or good for the earth.. Instead I associate it with middle class, expensive, posh, whole foods.. i can't really afford it.. :confused:

[peaccenicked]

Capitalism is full of lose lose dichotomies for working class people. Hence the saying "you just cant win". My personal boycott of champagne a case taboot. I have never got to taste it and I dont want to join in with the hype for this product when a much cheaper wine will do.
This issue is truly diversionary...you just cant win.

[R_P_A_S]

i would like more opinions on this matter please.. anyone else??

[Tower of Bebel]

We must accept the fact that we live in a capitalist dominated world. The only solution to many social, economical and environmental problems is the socialist/communist production relationship. We achieve socialism through a revolution, not by facking it.

Being conscious about inequalities and the destruction of the environment doesn't mean we should fully concentrate ourselfs on buying and consuming the most harmless products. Life is (sometimes) hard enough already.

Second, most forms of conscious consuming doesn't work because:

it might already be infected by the free market,
it can sometimes be so futile,
it will, when it becomes popular and profitable, be integrated in the free marketBtw, in Europe the workers' movements had these collectives, which were also affected by economic crises. Collectives were not the solution to capitalist exploitation, and today's collectives have the same faith. Hell, even big social reforms didn't kill inequalities, it didn't provide a solution to the destruction of the environment and it didn't end capitalism. The welfare State is even payed by the workers of the Third World.

It is everyone's own choice if he or she wants to consume "consciously" (doing this while you don't know it doesn't work is not very conscious, and doing this while you are a revolutionary doesn't make it very conscious either ;)).

[Lynx]

Consume less. You don't have to be struggling to make ends meet to see the advantage of lowering discretionary spending.

[R_P_A_S]

I still don't get it... what is the alternative then? and how would this change under socialism for say?

under socialism are we going to have organic/environmental friendly products?
or is it gonna be conventional farming AND organic too?

[Tower of Bebel]

I still don't get it... what is the alternative then? and how would this change under socialism for say?

under socialism are we going to have organic/environmental friendly products?
or is it gonna be conventional farming AND organic too?

Under capitalism you can decide which product you pick (when you have sufficient money to choose from different products), these products are provided by the capitalists.
The capitalist plans according to profit.

Under socialism you can decide which product you pick, and you can, toghether with others, decide which products you make :cool:.
Workers plan according to needs.

[BobKKKindle$]

I still don't get it... what is the alternative then? and how would this change under socialism for say?

under socialism are we going to have organic/environmental friendly products?
or is it gonna be conventional farming AND organic too?

Under Capitalism firms use a strategy called 'planned obsolescence' - they deliberately manufacture their products in a way that forces you to purchase a replacement, or a new version of the same product, after only a short time, because the original unit ceases to work or is in some other way not adequate - in addition, marketing also creates 'percieved obsolence' as we feel the need to always follow the latest trends and alter our consumption according to what is considered fashionable. These aspects of consumption are environmentally destructive, as they necessitate the production of far more goods than is actually necessary to meet our needs.

[Comeback Kid]

I can't help it but to feel that this 'conscious consumer, pro environmental battle' is one being fought with the wrong methods. How can capitalism and environmentalism coexist? don't they contradict one an other? So what exactly is this damn "conscious consumer" slogan? who's it really aimed it? people that have the money to spend it yet on an other capitalism venture with a nice fluffy green tag on it?

In short yes. Capitalism is the production and use of resources, environmentalism is conservation of resources.


and it seems like on some parts of the world it has to do with having money to afford the organic food, the Starbucks coffee and the GAP (red)campaign clothes for example.

Organic foods brought from local famers markets should well be cheaper then supermarket 'organic' branded food. Starbucks should never be supported regardless of what or where its supplies come from. Ditto for GAP. Companies that are anti-unionist/use sweatshops are not redeemed for having organic produce or environmentally sound products.

Consume consciously! Buy locally from farmers rather then corporations. Buy either 2nd hand clothing, or purchase union made online. Buy a bike rather then a car or taxi fare. Go Vegan - the best way to help the environment.

[McCaine]

Given that ecological, cruelty-free, fair trade etc. products are a clear improvement over their 'regular' versions, it doesn't matter that capitalism is fundamentally irreconcilable with sane environmental policies and fair treatment of workers; an improvement is an improvement on this point, and every fair trade chocolate bar you buy is one slave chocolate bar you don't buy. Using the weapons of the enemy against him is never a bad move.

Of course, one must be careful that these issues cannot replace the primacy of political and socio-economic revolution.

[Tower of Bebel]

I find it almost an ethical question. Should we do it? I still have the opion that you can do it, but it is a choice, and not obligatory.

[R_P_A_S]

fair trade... what's better than fair trade for say?