Did Chavez say the right thing about FARC?

[R_P_A_S]

what do you guys make of this comments. do you think it will hurt Chavez more than help him? are views gonna worsen? etc?

RACAS (AFP) — Hours after welcoming hostages freed by the Colombian rebel group FARC, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez urged European and Latin American governments Friday to stop branding Colombia's guerrillas terrorists as does the United States.

"I am asking the governments (across Latin America) to take the FARC (Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia) and ELN (National Liberation Army) off their lists of global terrorist groups," Chavez told the National Assembly, saying he asked European nations to do the same.

"Because those lists exist for one reason alone -- US pressure," Chavez said in his address on the year 2007.

The leftist Colombian rebel groups "are not any terrorist body, they are real armies that occupy territory in Colombia; they must be recognized, they are insurgent forces that have a political project, a Bolivarian project, which here is respected," Chavez said.

His message was likely to infuriate the elected Colombian government the rebels are bent on bringing down.

Chavez, an elected leftist former paratrooper, says he is inspired by independence hero Simon Bolivar, whose name he also invokes to describe what he calls Venezuela's socialist "Bolivarian" revolution.

On Thursday two women released by the FARC were greeted in Caracas with kisses and tears after years of captivity in the jungle. Chavez helped mediate to secure their release.

The United States deems Colombia's rebel forces terrorist groups. Uribe's government is Washington's closest ally in the Americas.

The FARC, at 17,000-strong, has waged an insurgency against the Colombian government for more than 40 years.

[Comeback Kid]

While he is technically correct, it was the wrong thing to say as far as national politics go.

Best not to associate yourself with kidnappers.

[Guest1]

It's definitely a mistake, millions of Colombian workers who may have softened to him after this whole saga will now likely become defensive. This gives Uribe the chance to drum up patriotism against him, as the FARC are terrorists, by any definition of the word.

Let's not kid ourselves, they are no mass movement, they pursue the false policy of Focoism and individual terrorism, the blood-soaked policy that ensured the destruction of every revolutionary opportunity that Latin America has ever had.

[peaccenicked]

I would not discount CIA dirty tricks (http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:wPzJprMKai4J:www.educweb.org/webnews/ColNews-Nov06/English/Press/LetterFromFarc.pdf+dirty+tricks+farc&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7) against FARC

[Herman]

It was wrong for him to say this publicly. He should have kept this to himself. If he had either kept quiet or said something else, then it may have gained him some prestige internationally.

[Ismail]

It was wrong for him to say this publicly. He should have kept this to himself. If he had either kept quiet or said something else, then it may have gained him some prestige internationally.Because the ideal Socialist leader should bend down to capitalism. Right.

[Dimentio]

"Typical socialist leader" - Lots of rhetorics, little action.

"Ideal socialist leader" - One who could pretend to be bourgeois in aesthetics while actually giving the control over the means of the production to the working class.

[Ismail]

Hooray for reformism! Smash the revolutionaries!

[Zurdito]

FARC may have an awful strategy and ideology, but please learn about their history before calling them terrorists. They represent a reaction of an opressed group, the peasantry, to state terrorism and land confiscation.

[Dimentio]

Hooray for reformism! Smash the revolutionaries!

It is better to sound reformist and act revolutionary than to sound revolutionary and act reformist. Actually, it is a precondition for a successful transition.

[metalero]

It's definitely a mistake, millions of Colombian workers who may have softened to him after this whole saga will now likely become defensive. This gives Uribe the chance to drum up patriotism against him, as the FARC are terrorists, by any definition of the word.

Let's not kid ourselves, they are no mass movement, they pursue the false policy of Focoism and individual terrorism, the blood-soaked policy that ensured the destruction of every revolutionary opportunity that Latin America has ever had.

I don't entirely agree with you. While FARC is becoming politically isolated with some of their practices such as kidnapping civilians, they've historically kept close ties with the working class organizations, such as the Colombian Communist Party, the militant Unitary Workers Federation and their involvement in the Patriotic Union. State terrorism, and a brutal war in the development of "plan patriota" have derailed FARC from their political goals and deepen its military resistance. It's pretty clear that the radical social change Colombia is needing won't come from a peasant army resisting paramilitary fascism but from mass workers mobilization and organization; but as long as the brutal conditions colombian workers and peasants face remain, FARC resistance is legitimate. This move from Chavez upset the colombian oligarchy, but he is pretty right: FARC is a structured political-military organization with clear political goals, they control a wide territory and have been involved in leftist legal coalitions in Colombia as well as many peace negotiations. The outcry from the Uribe govmnt. has more to do with the fact that a mere recognition of the beligerant status of FARC would put pressure on Uribe to recognize that there is an armed conflict in colombia rooted in the oppresive economical and political conditions; it would also grant their members political status, and that would mean the return for prominent rebels held in U.S prisons, Ricardo Palmera and Sonia, since Colombia constitution prohibits extradition on political grounds. The statement made by Chavez and its political implications, are also shared by colombian workers organizations and social movements, the democratic left and the progressive govmnts. of latinamerica.

[Luís Henrique]

what do you guys make of this comments. do you think it will hurt Chavez more than help him? are views gonna worsen? etc?


[CA]RACAS (AFP) — Hours after welcoming hostages freed by the Colombian rebel group FARC, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez urged European and Latin American governments Friday to stop branding Colombia's guerrillas terrorists as does the United States.

In fact, I can't understand why the US government keeps lists of "terrorist" organisations. It totally harms your diplomatic options, making it impossible for you to negotiate with them. Much less I understand why other countries copy such ridiculous behaviour. And, no it cannot be explained solely by American pressure; the Brazilian government, that is much more likely to bend to American pressure than most European governments, does not keep those silly lists - and in fact, never kept them, even when it was lead by staunchly pro-American presidents like Collor or Fernando Henrique.


The leftist Colombian rebel groups "are not any terrorist body, they are real armies that occupy territory in Colombia; they must be recognized, they are insurgent forces that have a political project, a Bolivarian project, which here is respected," Chavez said.

His message was likely to infuriate the elected Colombian government the rebels are bent on bringing down.

Exactly. I think this is likely to be understood as messing with Colombia's internal affairs (in fact, I think it is messing with Colombia's internal affairs); as such, it was a stupid thing to say. Also I don't think the FARC's project can be described as "Bolivarian" in the sence of "Chavista" (which is the only meaningful sence, as poor Bolívar certainly had nothing to do with it). BTW, this "Bolivarian" thing is quite ridiculous; don't the people in Venezuela know that bourgeois historic characters are to be derided, not worshiped?

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

...the FARC are terrorists, by any definition of the word.

Let's not kid ourselves, they are no mass movement, they pursue the false policy of Focoism and individual terrorism...

I think you are wrong, twice, here. First, they certainly aren't "terrorist" in a rational definition of the word. They are a guerrilla army; as any army in the world, they resort to terrorist acts when deemed necessary. That doesn't make them a "terrorist organisation" more than the US Army, or the Bundeswehr.

Second, I don't think they are focoist. If I was to characterise their strategy, I would say it is a version of Protracted People's War, which is a different thing from focoism. And they are a standing army of 15,000 to 20,000 men (and women), which makes them necessarily a mass phenomenon. Now this doesn't mean that I endorse them, their strategy, their tactics, or their brand of third-worldist "socialism", all of which brought them to a stalemate against the Colombian State that reminds me of Orwellian 1984 wars, in which the "enemies" had no intention to defeat each other.

Luís Henrique

[Herman]

Because the ideal Socialist leader should bend down to capitalism. Right.No, but you have to be careful, lest you want every capitalist power at your throat.

We're talking about Venezuela, not the USSR. Venezuela isn't a superpower or even close to it. Economic sanctions, invasion, isolation... these things can cripple Venezuela permanently. At the very least you have to try to be careful with your wording.

For example, the fact that Chavez helped in the liberation of Clara Rojas and the others helped him internationally. At least it makes him seem as if he really does care about the victims of the so called "terrorism". It allows for the other capitalist powers to not denounce him and keep a "fuck it, I don't care" attitude.

[kromando33]

Yes Herman but Venezuela has oil.

[Dros]

Hooray for reformism! Smash the revolutionaries!

How is FARC reformist (or not revolutionary)?

Or were you talking about Chavez?

[Faux Real]

How is FARC reformist (or not revolutionary)?

Or were you talking about Chavez?
MrDie was aiming that sarcastically towards the people who label the FARC 'terrorists'.

As for the OPs question, it definitely hurt Chavez because it's practically ammo given to bourgeois media in their continuing path of slandering the Venezuelan revolution, but the two hostages thanking him certainly helped balance it out.

[Davie zepeda]

brothers comrades this a war which they are losing in all honestly they must do any means necessary to keep there struggle alive or Columbia will just abuse it's people what chavez is trying to reach is pressure off the group and taking the name terror off them would help making it more able to move into party which in fact chavez would be able to help out way more than an group off terror .The only way farc can win this is getting there name cleaned and head into the polls and win by elections for the elite can not control the masses and masses wish for change .some times the simplness of things are right in front of you.

[chimx]

"Chavez said recognizing the rebels as insurgents with political aims would make them obey the rules of war established in the Geneva Convention, which prohibits kidnapping."

Chavez's line seems to be more along the lines of "stop treating them like terrorists and they'll stop acting like terrorists". I don't know if that is realistic, but it's not as if anything else has been working that well.


I think you are wrong, twice, here. First, they certainly aren't "terrorist" in a rational definition of the word. They are a guerrilla army; as any army in the world, they resort to terrorist acts when deemed necessary. That doesn't make them a "terrorist organisation" more than the US Army, or the Bundeswehr.

I disagree. FARC targets non-combatants, and from a strict definition of the word, this makes them terrorists. Organizational size and political goals is irrelevant. It also doesn't help that they are funded by drug trafficking, and have been known to use child soldiers.

[Xiao Banfa]

Chavez, while I support him (to an extent) I find his buffoon-like outbursts embarassing.

They make him look like a real blow-hard.

That Latin American conference thing where he interjected while the Spanish King (was it?) was speaking was just stupid.

While what he says is often right he needs to keep things on a more diplomatic level of politeness.

[Faux Real]

That Latin American conference thing where he interjected while the Spanish King (was it?) was speaking was just stupid.
It was the other way around; the King interjected with a "Why don't you shut up?"

[Xiao Banfa]

It was the other way around; the King interjected with a "Why don't you shut up?"


The King was responding to Chavez's interjection during (I think it was) Prime Minister Zapatero's speech in which he mentioned the previous spanish PM, Aznar.

Chavez, at the mention of Aznar, interjected; saying "he is a fascist".

That's when that stupid King told him to shut up.

[Faux Real]

Oh right, forgot about that bit.

[Herman]

Yes Herman but Venezuela has oil.

Oil is not the sole resource a country needs, even though it is vital.

[Luís Henrique]

I disagree. FARC targets non-combatants, and from a strict definition of the word, this makes them terrorists.

So does the US Army; is it a terrorist organisation?

An organisation isn't terrorist because it makes terrorist actions; it is terrorist when its main actions are systematically terrorist.


It also doesn't help that they are funded by drug trafficking, and have been known to use child soldiers.They aren't funded by drug trafficking, at least no more than the Colombian State is - ie, they level taxes in the territory they control, and production of coca (not drug dealing, btw) is an important economic activity in the territory they control.

They use child soldiers (to some of our most brilliant members, this should mean they are not ageists...); while I find this repulsive, I would remember that the prospects for these children, where not for the guerrilla, would be rural misery in the coca-producing areas of Colombia (complemented by policiac repression of their main economic activity) or swelling the industrial reserve army at the outskirts of Bogotá, probably as footsoldiers of organised crime, prostitutes, or beggars. (ETA: also, they certainly don't force anyone, adult or not, to join their ranks. Those teenage soldiers are willing to join.)

Luís Henrique

[platano2988]

It is absolutely inevitable, after this boost, and after Tirofijo declaring a general offenive for 2008, the struggle must continue, in relativity to the length of time that FARC has been combating, victory is palpable and tangible, Victory is inevitible. I have full faith that FARC will do anything and everything to bring about a revolutionary state to Colombia. Then that will truly be a Bolivarian dream made a reality.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I disagree. FARC targets non-combatants, and from a strict definition of the word, this makes them terrorists. Organizational size and political goals is irrelevant. It also doesn't help that they are funded by drug trafficking, and have been known to use child soldiers.

Ahh, chimx returns to bless us with his ununique brand of devoid-of-class-analysis liberalism.

We have to look at the class forces involved, and do real research before we go around using the same exact terms, arguments, "facts," etc., as people like George W. Bush.

There are several threads on FARC on this board, many of which are linked to in the Frequent topics of discussion - A guide (http://www.revleft.com/vb/politics-f14/frequent-topics-discussion-t53520/index.html) thread. They clear up a lot of the lies made against FARC-EP, a legitimate revolutionary army that deserves the support of every communist.

[chimx]

My mistake.

Listen up everybody! If you don't like what FARC does, you are a liberal.

I take it this means you think Chavez is a liberal and devoid of class-analysis also.

--

CDL: Don't be an antagonist. I'll be happy to ignore you if you would be so kind as to repay me the favor. Your non-stop personal attacks are the reason I left in the first place. Stop being a fucking jerk.

[piet11111]

Oil is not the sole resource a country needs, even though it is vital.

he means that oil-rich nations can not be completely isolated anymore because other nations like china and india would love to be venezuela's primary clients.
and since venezuela holds a powerfull political influence in south america such an action could potentially drive most of the continent into the hands of other nations not alligned with washington or europe.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

If you don't like what FARC does, you are a liberal.

No, if you decide whether or not to support something based on (what you've heard) are its tactics, you're not using the materialist method, which is something communists do, and liberals (which you personally, clearly are, as your posts make clear) don't.

It would be like refusing to support a strike because the workers in question were letting scabs through their line. Of course they shouldn't let scabs through if they want to win (and its our job to get involved in the struggle and show that), but a communist wouldn't simply condemn the striking workers as failures and weaklings and write them off.

[chimx]

which you personally, clearly are, as your posts make clear

Fuck you, you fucking douche smear.


if you decide whether or not to support something

That is irrelevant to what I said. FARC is labeled a terrorist organization because they attack civilian non-combatants. Go google what terrorism means and maybe you'll get it. Personally I could give a fuck about FARC -- although from what I've heard, they aren't very popular with most Colombians anyway.

[Zurdito]

That is irrelevant to what I said. FARC is labeled a terrorist organization because they attack civilian non-combatants. Go google what terrorism means and maybe you'll get it. Personally I could give a fuck about FARC -- although from what I've heard, they aren't very popular with most Colombians anyway.


If you don't give a fuck, you shouldn't give an opinion.

FARC are not popular with most Colombians, because their rural-based Focoist strategy most of the time only gets in the way of the struggle of the majority of the urban based population.

However that doesn't make them a terrorist organisation. The criteria you described can also apply to any army in the world in the right circumstances. What do you call the fire-bombing of Dresden?

[kromando33]

Fuck you, you fucking douche smear.



That is irrelevant to what I said. FARC is labeled a terrorist organization because they attack civilian non-combatants. Go google what terrorism means and maybe you'll get it. Personally I could give a fuck about FARC -- although from what I've heard, they aren't very popular with most Colombians anyway.
It is quite easy to "condemn" the actions of persecuted communists against the bourgeoisie imperialist machine, isn't it? While the ruling classes use any violent and brutal method they want, we must endlessly seek the liberation of all the working masses, unless of course it hurts someone. Then of course, the revolution must be dropped immediately as "unjust." Ridiculous drivel.

[chimx]

While the ruling classes use any violent and brutal method they want, we must endlessly seek the liberation of all the working masses, unless of course it hurts someone.

Narodnichestvo tried to use acts of individual terrorism. Elsewhere anarchists practiced "propaganda by the deed".

Violence is justified in any sort of popular revolt. In fact there is a great Proudhon quote that says, "A revolution is an act of sovereign justice, in the order of moral facts, springing out of the necessity of things, and in consequence carrying with it its own justification". But when you use violence on an individual basis without concern for popular sentiments, than you alienate your movement just like the Narodnichestvo did in Russia, an anarchists did elsewhere.

That is my opinion, but my opinion is still irrelevant to the fact that terrorism is defined as attacks on non-combatants.

[Lisa]

No matter what Chavez says, he is going to be portrayed negatively in the corporate elitist media.

And by the empire...I like his in your face style. And he was right after all.

[Lisa]

Colombia: concentration camps and torture

Murders, harassment, lack of medical care, psychological and physical torture, are part of the working day of a guerrilla of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC), in any Colombian prison, according to "Diego," an insurgent imprisoned at the high-security prison of Giron, in Santander department, northeast of the South American country.

A guerrilla of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) whom they call "Diego," read two communiqués for a telephone interview granted to Radio Basque "Desalambrar," which denounced the psychological and physical torture, malnutrition and disease hundreds of fighters detained in maximum security prisons suffer daily.

"The physical and psychological tortures are daily. Chaining hands and feet, clubs and gas," says an inmate of the high-security prison of Giron, in Santander department, northeast of the country.


The rebel tells that the security guards have even come to kill his companions and make it happen in many cases by drug overdose or hanging.


There are "murders of some of his companions who are hung, murdered by drug overdose, when this type of medicine has never been consumed internally," he reports.


Nocturnal diseases and "pleas" of lack of specialized medical attention abound in the "dungeon," as he calls it, with them made to drink water filled with feces.

"It's quite normal to find companions with severe intestinal problems and incurable illnesses, such as chronic diarrhea, particularly because they have made us consume water with fecal matter on several occasions," explains the guerrilla while he reads one of two releases on the "subhuman" situation in which they live "against their will."


Prisoner medical emergencies, if they are at night, are not heard or listened to until sunrise and usually are treated with medications that cause serious complications, expresses "Diego."


"It is very common to look at companions as they are thrown like dogs in punishment cages and they exist in a prisoner health area begging to be attended by a doctor, who after several hours offers the usual miracle pill: Diclofenac and Ibuprofen, generic," he explains.


"Here there is no medical service 24 hours a day, or specialized service. Falling ill is a physical and psychological torture (...). A flu or a harmless cough, later becomes in a terminal illness (. ..) all this for lack of timely and efficient medical care," he adds.


In order to be moved to areas within the prison, guards were tied to the prisoners.


"In this prison (...) it is a common procedure of the guard to tie you at the time you are sent to the visitation area, health care, call centers, educational and any other internal place," he laments.


At the time of being transferred outside the seclusion center, the guerrillas travel in a van "without any kind of ventilation and are made to do their physiological needs having been only provided "a plastic bottle."


"Any request made to them is answered by indignation and physical mistreatment (...). The majority of the time the solution they give to our pleas is to place us in the famous “scorpion” that consists of the binding of feet, waist and hands with chains and then placing us upside down to start with whipping," he says.


"Diego" denounces these "repressive methods" that qualify as "the most evil and horrifying" that are implemented by the government of President Alvaro Uribe, on the orders of the "bureau of prisons in the United States."

The relatives have stopped visiting them, because women and even children are subject to examinations such as physically touching the vagina, which on several occasions, has gone out of bounds.


"There are countless cases where our families take their determination not to return to this place because of the humiliation and abuses of officials responsible for these procedures," part of the communiqué read by "Diego."


Dozens of "Emmanuels" are born in prison


Among the prison population there are also women, who are forced in "violent" form by the Colombian State to be separated from their children, when they are only three months old.


"The situation of these sisters is the poorest. There are very subhuman conditions and more so when in a violent manner, the Colombian government deprives them of their children."


It is more difficult for the ladies to deal with the situation, and their status as women, believes "Diego" while cautioning that they receive the same treatment as men.


"Do you know gentlemen listeners the harsh reality they endure playing this to our companions in the various dungeons of this country? Do you know how many Emmanueles were born in difficult circumstances in these places?" concludes "Diego" in one of the communiqués.

On behalf of all "political prisoners", as themselves, "Diego" expressed support for the humanitarian exchange proposed by FARC and denied by Raul Agudelo, alias "Olivo Saldana," a guerrilla prisoner, who recently said that inmates disagreed with the exchange of hostages.

"Olivo Saldaña is only the spokesman of the new paramilitary group 'Hope of Peace,' who has been incubated in prison by order of Uribe and the Commissioner of Peace (Luis Carlos Restrepo)," he added.


Fonte: TeleSUR - ANNCOL / Mm-RN