North Korea

[RedArmyFaction]

I've just watched a really disturbing youtube video about North Korea and how Kim Jong II is oppressing his own people. Is this what Socialism/Communism is really about ? Lenin and Marx talked about the need for freedom and a democracy for the people. Why can't Kim Jong offered his people freedom ?

This video made me ashamed to be a socialist with all the graphic images of children crying out in pain. What do you people make of Kim Jong ? Do you regard him as a "comrade" ?

[kromando33]

Well the DPRK was socialist basically until the death of Stalin and rather than siding with the anti-revisionist socialist Chinese bloc or the revisionist state capitalist Soviet bloc, they instead became 'neutral' and created Juche, which while being fundamentally built upon Marxist historical materialism, was badly contaminated by idealism, spiritualism and fascist concepts. The rejection of Marxism-Leninism and the removal of all mentions of it from public life shows the DPRK to be on the revisionist path to capitalism, here is some evidence of this capitalism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinuiju_Special_Administrative_Region
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaesong_Industrial_Region
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajin-Sonbong_Economic_Special_Zone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumgangsan_Tourist_Region

Inevtiably of course this capitalism will infect all of North Korea, these capitalist 'export zones', 'special enterprise areas' or whatever are exactly the same way China was privatized wholesale and sold off to the bourgeois.

[R_P_A_S]

I've just watched a really disturbing youtube video about North Korea and how Kim Jong II is oppressing his own people. Is this what Socialism/Communism is really about ? Lenin and Marx talked about the need for freedom and a democracy for the people. Why can't Kim Jong offered his people freedom ?

This video made me ashamed to be a socialist with all the graphic images of children crying out in pain. What do you people make of Kim Jong ? Do you regard him as a "comrade" ?

wow..lol ok ok. where do we start? lets see.. first of all who made this video? you always have to ask your self who is saying this things. second of all check out this thread.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?t=63904

[spartan]

wow..lol ok ok. where do we start? lets see.. first of all who made this video? you always have to ask your self who is saying this things. second of all check out this thread.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?t=63904

Either way the DPRK and its Juche politcal system is shit and isnt worthy of our support (Sorry if that sounded elitist).

[R_P_A_S]

Either way the DPRK and its Juche politcal system is shit and isnt worthy of our support (Sorry if that sounded elitist).

I said it under that other thread i linked him to, I believe the DPRK is a totaliatarian stalinist country. there's no doubt about that. but you will never see me or criticizing it along the basis of whatever the fucking corporate media and *****y liberal rich asses do it. never! I'll depend the Korean people always! from any slander and attacks.

[Sergei Simonov]

I said it under that other thread i linked him to, I believe the DPRK is a totaliatarian stalinist country. there's no doubt about that. but you will never see me or criticizing it along the basis of whatever the fucking corporate media and *****y liberal rich asses do it. never! I'll depend the Korean people always! from any slander and attacks.

The DPRK is not Stalinist, as Stalinism is a legitimate development of Marxism-Leninism.

Juche, the official ideology of the DPRK, has departed from Marxism. Though I sympathize with the DPRK's struggle against imperialism, I see them as national socialist.

They need a revolution.

[spartan]

They need a revolution.

Dont we all:D

[RedArmyFaction]

I thought all the bad things that were said about North Korea and King Jong II were just american anti-communist propaganda, but now i'm not sure. I have yet to see any non-North Korean video, book, newspaper or internet source will doesn't say he is oppressing his people.


Here is the youtube video that I watched.........pretty grim

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nBzHCVv5GeQ

[spartan]

That clip you linked to didnt look that realistic.

Indeed it looked like the typical shit you see on CNN or something but slightly more dramatic.

Now i hate the DPRK just like the next person but, like RPAS said before, i refuse to critiscize it on the basis of American propaganda like this clip.

[#FF0000]

Yech. North Korea's certainly ugly, but it shouldn't make you feel ashamed to be a socialist. No matter what the DPRK says, it abandoned socialism long ago. No country that plays with nuclear toys while it's people starve could call itself socialist.

[Lenin II]

First off, this senseless and ideologically lacking accusation of North Korea as a “Stalinist” regime is both unfounded and inaccurate. The official ideology of the North Korean government is Juche, a retarded nationalist idea cooked up by Kim-Il Sung that Mao apparently didn’t have the sense to beat out of him. They no longer follow an orthodox Marxist-Leninist line and therefore cannot be Stalinist by definition.

As to the video, just like Chimx’s pictures of starving children in the other thread, that video could have been shot ANYWHERE. This is no different than those pro-Iraq-invasion videos circling the net of supposed executions under Saddam that turns out to be from the U.S. “buddies” Saudi Arabia. Even if it is real, yeah, North Korea is poor. Guess what? So are over 3 billion people worldwide. Yes, North Korea has starving people. So does every other country ever in the history of the world.
Even if you want to condemn the so-called human rights (read: neo-liberal property rights) abuses of the DPRNK we should defend the fundamental gains of a planned economy and the resistance against imperialist aggression. North Korea has problems, but the return of the bourgeoisie and capitalism would be far worse.

believe the DPRK is a totaliatarian stalinist country. there's no doubt about that.
Ridiculous misnomer. See above.


No country that plays with nuclear toys while it's people starve could call itself socialist.

Because everyone knows that defending yourself against imperialists armed with enough nuclear and biological weapons to destroy the planet is not socialist, right?

[Great Helmsman]

That video would be much more powerful if it showed American border pigs attacking (im)migrants and locking up women and children in detention centres.

[#FF0000]

Because everyone knows that defending yourself against imperialists armed with enough nuclear and biological weapons to destroy the planet is not socialist, right?

Nope. Not when the military takes precedent over the people, to the point where they're giving up work and school to scavenge for grass and seaweed to eat because of the lack of food.

I don't know about any of you that are gonna defend the DPRK, but masses of people living with starvation and disease, while the glorious leader plans his next parade was never an image I conjured up when picturing a socialist/communist future.

[Ismail]

Nope. Not when the military takes precedent over the people, to the point where they're giving up work and school to scavenge for grass and seaweed to eat because of the lack of food.If anyone wants a good, neutral look into the average life of the Korean citizen: http://youtube.com/watch?v=8VzDqbMUlrU

This claim that they eat grass and bark has no basis in reality.

Now, as for Juche, it isn't perfect, but Kim Jong Il is the one who really made it a revisionist concept. Concepts like Songun (Military-First, military leads revolution) were developed under Kim Jong Il, whereas the only bad thing Kim Il Sung did with it was declare that the leader is the true voice of the people and that the people put their faith in the leader to help them overcome struggles. This is incorrect and sways from the Marxist-Leninist concept of the party being the representative of the people and being guided by them, with the leader serving more as a representative.

The nuclear weapons research is legit. What does the DPRK have that can make people have second thoughts about attacking them? Anyone? When Korea was briefly unified under Kim Il Sung's forces, the US came in and put an end to that, taking all the landowners, Japanese-trained puppet government ministers, and so on, and giving them their own lands to reign over in what is today known as the Republic of Korea.

I fear that market-based economics may be creeping into the DPRK, but besides that it is the most Socialist state we have. It has a good, anti-imperialist/colonialist culture that is founded upon the principles of socialist realism and its economics are strong.

[Sergei Simonov]

...Concepts like Songun (Military-First, military leads revolution) were developed under Kim Jong Il...

The development of Songun was inevitable in the DPRK. Kim had to create an ideological justification to continue bribing the military for the sake of forestalling the inevitable coup they will stage against him. The roots of this dilemma predate Kim Jong-il and lie in the fact that Juche is simply Korean national socialism and not authentic, popular, Marxist socialism.

[Ismail]

Juche is nationalistic, yes, but not in the "We hate everyone else" type of way. Hence why I said it is a revisionist ideology.

[Sergei Simonov]

Juche is nationalistic, yes, but not in the "We hate everyone else" type of way. Hence why I said it is a revisionist ideology.

I do not call Juche "Korean national socialism" simply because it is nationalistic socialism. Proletarian nationalism has its time and place.

Juche is Korean NS because of its militarism, adherence to the führerprinzip, (implicit) view of the state as the highest expression of a people, etc. The violent chauvinism often associated with nazism is common, but not an essential property of the ideology.

As I said before, I sympathize with the DPRK's struggle against imperialism and understand the historical conditions that created its fierce insularity--but the workers and farmers of Korea's north desperately need a system that values them as more than providers for the military.

[Ismail]

Oh God, that type of National "Socialism".

Explain how it is chauvinistic. I have never heard from the DPRK that the south must be unified by military means. It is a militarized society, yes, but the military does work with the workers. (since, as has been pointed out, the entire culture is expressed VIA military views such as independence and so on)

But there is no racism. There is no "The Korean people are the master race" or any of that. Also, it doesn't glorify the state in such a way. It glorifies the leader, yes, but emphasis is placed on the people (both military and militias) as the ones that get things done and work in unity as the "wise leadership" of the leader guides them.

[#FF0000]

If anyone wants a good, neutral look into the average life of the Korean citizen: (video)


The video was produced under the watch of the North Korean Government. How is that unbiased?


This claim that they eat grass and bark has no basis in reality..The claim was made by a World Food Program representative who visited North Korea and saw it. If you have any evidence to show that would prove this claim false that isn't produced by the North Korean government, I'd like to see it.


I fear that market-based economics may be creeping into the DPRK, but besides that it is the most Socialist state we have. It has a good, anti-imperialist/colonialist culture that is founded upon the principles of socialist realism and its economics are strong.What, exactly, about the economics are strong? Since the 90's there have been food shortages that have killed thousands. I don't see anything strong about this.

[Ismail]

The video was produced under the watch of the North Korean Government. How is that unbiased?A Dutch filmmaker made it. The only things you explicitly can't film are military-related.


The claim was made by a World Food Program representative who visited North Korea and saw it. If you have any evidence to show that would prove this claim false that isn't produced by the North Korean government, I'd like to see it.The WFP is a part of the United Nations and its Executive Director was a former US managing editor for the Washington Times, owned by Sun Myung Moon, a (south) Korean-born cult leader who claims he is Jesus II. Was there starving in certain areas? Yeah, but it isn't nearly as widespread as claimed and is, of course, in the countryside. The DPRK can't afford to keep up industrializing the entire nation to prevent famines from hitting as hard, so things like this happen just like they happened in the USSR in the 20's and 30's.


What, exactly, about the economics are strong? Since the 90's there have been food shortages that have killed thousands. I don't see anything strong about this.The economy has kept the nation independent and provides a good means of life for the large majority of citizens. It is also built upon a Marxist-Leninist basis.

[R_P_A_S]

A Dutch filmmaker made it. The only things you explicitly can't film are military-related.

The WFP is a part of the United Nations and its Executive Director was a former US managing editor for the Washington Times, owned by Sun Myung Moon, a (south) Korean-born cult leader who claims he is Jesus II. Was there starving in certain areas? Yeah, but it isn't nearly as widespread as claimed and is, of course, in the countryside. The DPRK can't afford to keep up industrializing the entire nation to prevent famines from hitting as hard, so things like this happen just like they happened in the USSR in the 20's and 30's.

The economy has kept the nation independent and provides a good means of life for the large majority of citizens. It is also built upon a Marxist-Leninist basis.

LOL that video is biased as shit. stop kidding your self.

[Ismail]

Clearly it's not biased when claims that the DPRK is a state that intentionally keeps its citizens in shitty conditions and wants to nuke the United States are made.

[MarxSchmarx]

My god, are you DPRK apologists really leftists of any sort? where the hell is the solidarity with the Korean workers?

To call North korea state capitalist is a serious understatement. Kim Jong Il has something like 8 palaces and all his sycophants have kick ass villas. He complains about being served Bulgarian wine on his private compartment train in Russia.

All the while North Korean people are kicked around, lied to, and exploited as much if not more than workers in the global north. They aren't allowed to travel, to speak with foreigners. They need to spend their entire day thanking the "Dear Leader" and the dead "Great Leader" for their pittance. At best, they live in dilapidated apartments and at worst they are in gulags. There are no free (much less syndicalist) unions, no free press, no self-organization except the kind approved of by the KWP.

In fact, lately the gov't has been making a big deal about what a wonderful place it is to invest, given its "motivated" (ie obedient) cheap labor.
http://www.korea-dpr.com/business/

This is exactly the scene in "animal farm" where the pigs host a party for the humans.

North Korea is stalinist in practice if not in theory. A ruling elite gladly taking advantage of the surplus labor of the workers and the peasants.

Communism my ass.:mad:

[Ismail]

My god, are you DPRK apologists really leftists of any sort? where the hell is the solidarity with the Korean workers?Everywhere. We defend them against imperialist attempts on their independence.


To call North korea state capitalist is a serious understatement. Kim Jong Il has something like 8 palaces and all his sycophants have kick ass villas. He complains about being served Bulgarian wine on his private compartment train in Russia.I'd say "Marx never had to work a day in his life! Communism is a joke!" but considering your name, you'd probably seriously believe that.


to speak with foreigners.Proof?
They need to spend their entire day thanking the "Dear Leader" and the dead "Great Leader" for their pittance.Bullshit. There is a cult of personality without doubt, but don't amp it to extremes.
At best, they live in dilapidated apartmentsGood point. I guess not being dependent on capitalist states is a bad idea after all. Sorry guys, time to give up the struggle.


n fact, lately the gov't has been making a big deal about what a wonderful place it is to invest, given its "motivated" (ie obedient) cheap labor.Yes, a similar thing happened when Enver Hoxha died and Ramiz Alia began talking about how "great" investing in Albania would be against Hoxha's wishes. (Hoxha stated that investments will make a socialist nation dependent on a capitalist one and thus must basically never happen)


North Korea is stalinist in practice if not in theory. A ruling elite gladly taking advantage of the surplus labor of the workers and the peasants.I'm pretty sure elections in the DPRK are fairly democratic. I forget if they're single-candidate or multi-candidate. Also, this "ruling elite" must be pretty damned held back if they've only just begun to experiment with capitalism.


Communism my ass.Correct, it is not Communism, it is (not a perfect version of) Socialism, which comes before Communism.

[kromando33]

Lol, I am seriously laughing at all the 'omg stalinist' people on here, seriously the DPRK abandoned Marxism-Leninism and Stalin's contributions to that science during the Sino-Soviet Split I believe, what remains today is a mixture of spiritual cultist 'idealism' and fascist class collaboration. 'Stalinism'- that is Marxism-Leninism, is the self-determination of the proletariat and an unflinching class war.

[Kitskits]

If someone here feels ashamed to be a socialist/communist I am very sad for this is exactly what they wanted you to think when you saw the video. Don't misunderstand I do not support DPRK. but:

1)The video was made by capitalists in order to make you feel bad for socialism but this is irrational by itself because

2)DPRK is not socialist and

3)If we could gather videos from the 3rd world capitalist oppression, propaganda initiated civil wars etc. Comparison is a joke

BUT AGAIN!!!! Comparison with some crazy Juche-nazi. NOT WITH SOCIALISM.

Mercy!

[Yazman]

Marxism is most certainly not a science. It is a political theory - a good one, IMO (if you ignore Leninist crap), but it is definitely not a science.

[Dr Mindbender]

i also believe that in the DPRK mixed race relationships and marriages are illegal.

Socialism? Pfffffffffft....

[Ismail]

i also believe that in the DPRK mixed race relationships and marriages are illegal.

Socialism? Pfffffffffft....Bourgeois media, pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff......ff fffff...f...fffff..ffffff......................FFF FF-*passes out*

Seriously, where the fuck did you hear that?

[Wanted Man]

The video was produced under the watch of the North Korean Government. How is that unbiased?

What, as opposed to the first one? It even explicitly asks: "Does it break your heart? Does it make you angry?" The dramatic music and disingenuous titles like "daily life in North Korea" do the rest. There is no information on where and when the footage was taken, or by whom.

And yet, we are supposed to believe that this is what is happening in the DPRK at this very moment, on every day. That the people who use the video to "break your heart" and "anger you" and recruit you for their movement "LiNK Global" are actually neutral observers, who are only interested in telling us the whole truth. Please.


They aren't allowed to travel, to speak with foreigners. They need to spend their entire day thanking the "Dear Leader" and the dead "Great Leader" for their pittance. At best, they live in dilapidated apartments and at worst they are in gulags.
These are lies, plain and simple. You either literally pulled them from your ass, or you heard it from other people who did so. Why do people who travel to the DPRK by airplane get to talk to DPRK citizens coming back from China, Japan or European countries? Why do the few western tourists that even go to the DPRK, get to talk to the people there? Where are the "dilapidated apartments"?

Oh, right, it's a conspiracy by the evil North Korean communists, who have planted all these people there, and all the cities are just Potemkin cities, all to fool a few western idiots. It all makes sense now! :D

And you think that Al-Jazeera's video is biased towards the DPRK, when it also says that millions starve? The scenes are from Pieter Fleury's documentary "A Day in the Life", which was almost universally hailed as a neutral look, because Fleury did not give any comment. The North Korean people depicted in it did not like the way they were depicted. After the film, they again talked to Fleury, and said that "our real lives look better than in the film". You can see them here:

http://www.vpro.nl/programma/tegenlicht/afleveringen/18793755/items/19180744/media/19188305/

Wait, what's that? North Koreans are actually human beings with ideas and emotions, who like to have discussions and have a laugh together with their friends, and even the rare western filmmaker who doesn't think that they are all evil? How can this be??? I thought that North Koreans were all pathetic, oppressed and starving creatures, who need to be saved by America. I thought that the daily life was starving people with dramatic music at the background. It broke my heart and made me angry! But this... OMG, it almost makes the North Koreans look human!

[Lenin II]

Marxism is most certainly not a science. It is a political theory - a good one, IMO (if you ignore Leninist crap), but it is definitely not a science.
Marxism is a political science because it links a materialist concept of history with a logical theory of progress. Marxism is a hard natural science of society able to identify laws of social development and to provide a scientific guide to revolutionary activity. And if anything, Lenin's theories on class consiousness, vanguard parties, violent overthrow and dictatorship of the proletariat are even more scientific and logical than Marx's theories of working class spontaneity.


i also believe that in the DPRK mixed race relationships and marriages are illegal.

I believe you are confusing Koreas here. ;)

[Sergei Simonov]

Oh God, that type of National "Socialism".

Explain how it is chauvinistic. I have never heard from the DPRK that the south must be unified by military means. It is a militarized society, yes, but the military does work with the workers. (since, as has been pointed out, the entire culture is expressed VIA military views such as independence and so on)

But there is no racism. There is no "The Korean people are the master race" or any of that. Also, it doesn't glorify the state in such a way. It glorifies the leader, yes, but emphasis is placed on the people (both military and militias) as the ones that get things done and work in unity as the "wise leadership" of the leader guides them.

I believe you misunderstood my post, and upon reviewing it, this is likely due to the poor wording of its second bloc.

Juche (to my knowledge) is not chauvinistic. Though violent chauvinism is common among national socialists, it is not integral to that ideology as Juche and some third positionist strains illustrate. This is not to say, however, that there are "good nazis" we can work with. A red-brown alliance is not in our class interests.

We will have to disagree about the role of the state in Songun-era Juche. By making the military the focus of society Songun has created a state-centered ideology. The modern army is by definition an arm of the state.

[Prairie Fire]

i also believe that in the DPRK mixed race relationships and marriages are illegal.

Watch the documentary film "crossing the line". The interview subject, an American defector livin gin DPRK, has a Korean wife. He also has a white son, who is popular with female Korean school mates.

interesting rumour, but completely unfounded.

[Cryotank Screams]

Is this what Socialism/Communism is really about ?

If you want a clear picture of Socialism see the Paris Commune.


What do you people make of Kim Jong ?

He's a capitalist.


Do you regard him as a "comrade" ?

Fuck no.

[kromando33]

Also, South Korea is just as reactionary as the North, the South is basically a conservative dictatorship and bastion of institutionalized anti-unionism and anti-communism, crony capitalism and a police state.

[Jae iLL]

Also, South Korea is just as reactionary as the North, the South is basically a conservative dictatorship and bastion of institutionalized anti-unionism and anti-communism, crony capitalism and a police state.

it was really bad until about early 90s, South Korea's much better now tho. However, any communist presence is pretty much completely wiped out.

As for North Korea, that place is not a good place to be. I don't need Capitalist propaganda to tell me that, there's plenty of North Koreans going to school at Yonsei or Sogang that can recount first-hand experiences. There's plenty of North Koreans hiding around the border of China that can tell stories of life in N Korea. A big portion of my family is still up there, if they're even alive, and trust me they are not living and working in "unity" with the military or their leaders. My grandfather hasn't even had contact with any of his family since 1950, there's no freedom up there.

[phoenixoftime]

Re: Claims that the Juche Idea is racist

In his thesis On Reexamining the Question of the Unification of the Three Kingdoms, Kim Jong Il disagrees with Stalin by saying that 'commonness of blood' is a main feature of a nation, along with language and territory.

As many of you will know, in Marxism and the National Question, Stalin defines a nation as thus:

A nation is a historically constituted, stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life, and psychological make-up manifested in a common culture.

He rejects the notion that race can be the basis of a nation.

This community is not racial, nor is it tribal. The modern Italian nation was formed from Romans, Teutons, Etruscans, Greeks, Arabs, and so forth. The French nation was formed from Gauls, Romans, Britons, Teutons, and so on. The same must be said of the British, the Germans and others, who were formed into nations from people of diverse races and tribes.


I'm no expert on the Juche Idea though... thoughts?

[kromando33]

Well, phoenix, the DPRK is almost entirely homogeneous, with a tiny amount of ethnic Japanese and Chinese in it. This may make Juche more of a defacto expression of 'Korean identity' because the vast majority of the population are infact Korean and share this ethno-cultural identity, the Mass Games and other cultural events truly show the DPRK to have an amazing and quite unique oriental culture though. I wouldn't however claim it to be 'racist', I mean I don't see Kim saying that the Korean race is superior to all other races or anything like this, it's simply a bit of nationalism.

I mean I uphold my criticism of the DPRK as state capitalist with class collaborationist fascism, but claiming racism is pretty far out.

[chimx]

I mean I uphold my criticism of the DPRK as state capitalist with class collaborationist fascism, but claiming racism is pretty far out.

I agree. I would attribute it more to nationalism and an attempt to justify the reunification of Korea.

[Nakidana]

Bourgeois media, pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff......ff fffff...f...fffff..ffffff......................FFF FF-*passes out*

Seriously, where the fuck did you hear that?

lol, pretty damn funny... :D

But I agree, let's not jump on the zomfgz DPRK is hell on 3arth!!!111oneone bandwagon. I mean sure it's not paradise but it's not like the North Koreans walk around in a perpetual state of über sadness.

I mean they're ordinary people just like everyone else.

I can't help but laugh at all the guys at YouTube who're buying into shit like "Oh if they take one wrong step on their way to school they're probably executed". Let's be realistic here, how long would such a society be able to uphold itself?

There was this video of some South Korean dance group...Baby V.O.X (lol)... who were performing in North Korea in front of all these elderly North Korean officials. (Don't ask me why)

And the North Korean officials were just sitting stiff, not dancing or anything. This, IMHO is quite understandable seeing as how they're elderly people, maybe party officials, and wouldn't be into this kind of thing in the first place. So you wouldn't really be expecting them to jump up and scream like teenagers.

But one look at the video comments, and you got crap like:

"It's like there to scared to fucking budge, or the laughter and fun of life has been systematically removed from them from a young age. "

"Does the communism even suppress the freedom of bodily and facial expressions? The North Koreans look all frozen dead in their dark suits. Kind of funny and sad, actually. "

I mean seriously wtf?!? The Western media propaganda machine truly is remarkable in its achievements. :rolleyes:

Here's the link: www youtube com /watch?v=xo7liYi1kA8

EDIT: Actually, looking at it again the reactions are a bit funny. Would probably get the same reactions if you sent a bunch of teens to a classical music concert. Makes me wonder which party official got this brilliant idea... :rolleyes:

[Holden Caulfield]

the way the North Korea has degenerated is bacause 'socialism in one country' cannot work, ergo,
blame Stalin, North Korea, China and the USSR could have put their pissed differances behind them and create a massive communist landmass that would be a major threat and therefor not need to spend billions on nukes, and could most probably supply each other with the imports that they needed,

i just realised im statring to sound a bit 1984, 'create Eastasia' whooo -.-

[Wanted Man]

It's Stalin's fault that Krushchev and Mao split up? Well, if you use a work of fiction in a confused attempt to understand the real world, it might make sense...

Anyway, I'll assume that you're an economic expert, and can tell me exactly what kind of resources the DPRK, PRC and USSR had, and how they could "supply each other". And you could also use your military expertise to tell me how a "massive communist landmass" could be a "major threat" without the need to "spend billions on nukes". How, exactly? Would they develop technology to equip the "massive communist landmass" with rocket engines, move it east or west, and simply gobble up Europe or America? That would have kicked ass, too bad Stalin ruined it from beyond the grave by making Krushchev, Mao and Kim break up becase of socialism in one country.

[Holden Caulfield]

Stalin and comintern didnt support the chinese communist party leading to built up resentment

oil food, ores, etc..

and did china in the past have brilliant technology but they sure whooped the US in Korea for a time,

[Lenin II]

the way the North Korea has degenerated is bacause 'socialism in one country' cannot work, ergo,
blame Stalin, North Korea, China and the USSR could have put their pissed differances behind them and create a massive communist landmass that would be a major threat and therefor not need to spend billions on nukes, and could most probably supply each other with the imports that they needed,
You can't FORCE socialism on people. It's a failure from the start. That's why Socialism in One Country is the best policy.

Stalin and comintern didnt support the chinese communist party leading to built up resentment
oil food, ores, etc..
I dont know about that specific situation, but it's easy to say what "should have" happened and how if A would've happened B, C, D & E would've happened in hindsight. There's very little point in it.

and did china in the past have brilliant technology but they sure whooped the US in Korea for a time,
Where did you hear THAT? I've never heard of any CCP official, or person at large for that matter, cheer on the American presence in South Korea.

Also, South Korea is just as reactionary as the North, the South is basically a conservative dictatorship and bastion of institutionalized anti-unionism and anti-communism, crony capitalism and a police state.

The second part of the sentence is very correct, but what’s with slipping a “reactionary” in there? What part of North Korea is reactionary?


it was really bad until about early 90s, South Korea's much better now tho. However, any communist presence is pretty much completely wiped out.
Is that supposed to be a good thing??

[Holden Caulfield]

the jist is the comintern told the communist to support the bourgosie and nationalist Kuomintang and therefore forced this on the people, and this is why the resentment is there,

the Kuomintang went about killing off revolutionary members of the chinese cumminist party,

in no way was i cheering on american world policing, or the situation and ideals of either Korean government

[Wanted Man]

The Sino-Soviet split of the 1960s had nothing to do with a Comintern policy from 1927.

And wow, they had food, oil, and ores? You don't say! I can already imagine the top level discussions between the 3 countries:

Krushchev: Hai guyz, I just figured we can work well together. If all you Chinese harvest food, and if the Koreans mine ore, I'll have the entire population drilling oil, and we can all be a self-sufficient communist landmass, how's that?
Mao: What? You asswipes told us to support the KMT back in '27, you're not getting shit.
Kim: Now now, don't fight. We can just let our people starve, who cares?
Krushchev: Socialism in one country ftw, I got all this from Stalin even though I denounced him. Fat attack!
*Krushchev jumps on Mao and crushes him, they start fighting*
Stalin, in the lowest ring of hell: My plan worked perfectly, I crushed the revolution! *cackles and rubs hands together*

[Holden Caulfield]

denounced stalin after his death and after all his promotions may i add

i like your explaining techniques if only everything was explained to me like that i would spend way less time getting my ideas trashed on here,

[Redscare102]

North Korea? Alright, while I deeply oppose the North Korean state, we need to avoid sensationalism here. (sadly, the media... doesn't) It's terrible, but it isn't Nazi Germany.

Now, onto your questions.

Is it communist? No, it's more similar to a fascist state. Nationalistic, ultra-bureaucratic, and totally authoritarian.

Do I regard Kim Jong Il as a comrade? Hell no! He's a state capitalist, and the juche ideology is one of the craziest things I have ever heard of.

[Ismail]

Juche is wrong, but it isn't "crazy".

http://redbannerofsongun.org/aindfexplainssongun.html

There are actual explanations and arguments for theories like Songun and such. You can argue that they're weak and wrong, but it isn't like Kim Jong Il said "SONGUN!" and it was so.

[spartan]

Juche is simply Korean Fascism (Autocratic ruler backed by an Oligarchic Bureaucracy and with Militarism and Nationalism as state endorsed ideologies).

When i see the DPRK i see what Imperial Japan or even Nazi Germany may have been like in the future (Minus the economic problems).

The DPRK is living proof of how Stalinist State Capitalism will only lead to Fascism (DPRK) or a Capitalist "Liberal" Democracy (Former USSR).

One thing is for sure though, Stalinist State Capitalism will never lead to Socialism (As evidenced by all the countires that used to practice Stalinist State Capitalism).

[Ismail]

A "Fascism" that constantly glorifies the workers, does not have racism, whose nationalism is relatively minor and not really based on ancient traditions, is not imperialistic, is not a puppet of imperialism, and isn't even militaristic in its world outlook.

[spartan]

A "Fascism" that constantly glorifies the workers
That is really the story of State Capitalism: Socialist in words, State Capitalist (Or in the DPRK's case Fascist) in action.


whose nationalism is relatively minor and not really based on ancient traditions

Actually the state is ultra-Nationalist and often bases things around ancient traditions (Which always makes me think of Imperial Japan whenever someone mentions the DPRK).

I mean who can forget the "Dear Leader" being born on mount whatever and his birth being fortold by a swan?


is not imperialistic, is not a puppet of imperialism

Well going by that arguement you could argue the same for Nazi Germany seeing how they only wanted to "gather" all Germans into one state and didnt want to be puppets to the western powers.

Just like the DPRK wants to unify Korea and all the Koreans into one state (Under Juche rule) and "resists" American Imperialism.

All in all the "Isnt Imperialist or a puppet of Imperialism" arguement is a pretty weak one when mentioned in the defence of a state that shouldnt have the honour of being defended by anyone.


and isn't even militaristic in its world outlook.

Thats because it cant afford to.

That still isnt an excuse for the DPRK as it is still Militarist at home.

[Ismail]

That is really the story of State Capitalism: Socialist in words, State Capitalist (Or in the DPRK's case Fascist) in action.Only Fascism isn't about glorifying the workers.


Actually the state is ultra-Nationalist and often bases things around ancient traditions (Which always makes me think of Imperial Japan whenever someone mentions the DPRK).Its nationalism is based around defending the nation from imperialism. Explain some ancient traditions that it glorifies.


You could argue the same for Nazi Germany seeing how they only wanted to "gather" all Germans into one state and didnt want to be puppets to the western powers.1. The situation in the Korea's, like the situation was in Cold War era Germany, is focused on unification. It isn't about "UNITE THE MASTER RACE", it's about throwing out an imperialist puppet that was installed against the wishes of the people in the 1940's.

2. Nazi Germany itself was imperialistic. Why the fuck would it want to be a puppet if it was invading damn near every nation it bordered?


Just like the DPRK wants to unify Korea and all the Koreans into one stateI guess German unification was a horrible goal then.


(Under Juche rule)What else is it going to advocate being under?


and "resists" American Imperialism.Yeah, we all know it's selling its very soul to the US right now.


All in all the "Isnt Imperialist or a puppet of Imperialism" arguement is a pretty weak one when mentioned in the defence of a state that shouldnt have the honour of being defended by anyone.Yeah, let's go US! Destroy that evil dictator! w00t w00t!


Thats because it cant afford to.Germany was poor as shit, and Hitler was still rambling on.


That still isnt an excuse for the DPRK as it is still Militarist at home.The role of the military is obviously an important one in society, but by militarism I mean treating everything like it's the military, forcing people to respond to everything with aggression, and so on. Instead, propaganda portrays the military as a romantic thing, which works with the people for the defense of the nation and its socialist system and isn't about dominating other nations. I don't think professionalism or any of that have much influence in the army there.

[spartan]

In his thesis On Reexamining the Question of the Unification of the Three Kingdoms, Kim Jong Il disagrees with Stalin by saying that 'commonness of blood' is a main feature of a nation, along with language and territory.

Let me put it this way, if a white person was saying this it would be deemed racist.

But because a non-white person is applying this to a non-white people it is deemed "Nationalist".

Juche is racist in spirit but it likes to put on a "Everyone is welcome" face to the whole world such as the story of the American defector who apparently has a Korean wife (Who was probably provided to him by the propaganda bureau).

[Wanted Man]

Let me put it this way, if a white person was saying this it would be deemed racist.

But because a non-white person is applying this to a non-white people it is deemed "Nationalist".
Why do you think this is?

[Ismail]

such as the story of the American defector who apparently has a Korean wife (Who was probably provided to him by the propaganda bureau).I guess free and democratic US, UK, etc never, ever used propaganda then? They have never beefed up anti-communists with funding? Any of that?

[Jae iLL]

Is that supposed to be a good thing??

No.. I said the situation in S. Korea has gotten a lot better compared to the 60-80s, HOWEVER there's pretty much no communist presence there. In the 80s there were a lot of ppl that held communist ideas, today that's not the case at all.

[spartan]

Why do you think this is?

"Commonness of blood" IMO is racist terminology.

In our modern times racism is mostly associated with Nazi Germany (White supremacy) so when a non-white person comes out saying this obviously racist terminology (In reference to a non-white people and their "purity") it should be deemed racist not Nationalist.

Recognizing it as anything other than racist is a case of politically correct double standards as they arent recognizing an obviously racist term as racist because a non-white person is saying it in reference to a non-white people.

[spartan]

I guess free and democratic US, UK, etc never, ever used propaganda then? They have never beefed up anti-communists with funding? Any of that?

They only use it when they need to.

The USSR however constantly used it to defend their shitty system and to brainwash their subjects into thinking that everything on the "other side" (Free market Liberal Capitalism) was worse.

Of course this wasnt the case at all as the Capitalist countries were, on average, more richer, more industrialized and had more rights concerning freedom of speech then the "Socialist" countries ever did.

A perfect example was when people from the "other side" were finally allowed into Albania after the fall of State Capitalism and they reported that the country was about 50 years behind the west in terms of economic development and living standards.

[Ismail]

A perfect example was when people from the "other side" were finally allowed into Albania after the fall of State Capitalism and they reported that the country was about 50 years behind the west in terms of economic development and living standards.Refusing to become dependent on trade with capitalist/revisionist nations and trying to attain self-sufficiency does that to a small nation, yes. But 50 years old is a lie, Socialism in Albania was gone by 1992, and in 1942 Albania had no industry. Actually, the Communists weren't even in power then. So 20-25 years old would be more accurate. You lose.

[spartan]

The technology that Albania was using was approximately 50 years old so you lose.

Face it your beloved Stalinist tyrannies were shitholes who's only contribution to Socialism was the failure that most people associate when they hear the word Socialism.

Why the hell do you think these systems arent around anymore?

[Ismail]

The technology that Albania was using was approximately 50 years old so you lose.No it fucking wasn't. The Chinese helped build up a lot of things in the 60's and 70's, making them only 20-25 years old. Communists came to power in 1944, and it wasn't until 1948 that the USSR began giving Albania regular shipments of supplies and such for construction. The economy continued to grow until the mid 1970's, something I doubt could be done with early-40's industrial buildings.

Compare that with Haiti, in which a lot of stuff today is 100 years old.


Why the hell do you think these systems arent around anymore?Revisionists did not support firm adherence to self-sufficiency and the focus on heavy industry over light industry?

[spartan]

Self sufficiency is impossible in a region that has little natural resources.

Thus is the biggest flaw of the "Socialism" in one country theory.

Now if all the countries that, one time or another, called themselves Marxist-Leninist unified into one state, then they would have had the self sufficiency they allegedly wanted.

The trouble is the Bureaucracy, that is inherent to a Marxist-Leninist (Stalinist) system, wouldnt allow this as it threatened their "special" place in a Stalinist society (i.e. the obtaining of any profits made from the productive forces under their control to make them richer just like the Bourgeoisie in a Capitalist society).

[Davie zepeda]

sad indeed to see this i would not consider this a communist's state nor a socialists this is a system built on self glorification one thing Lenin sad was mistake for all of us have the ability to run a country not just an elite phew
understand this government is not something to support more so what should be represented as a communist's state .The only hope long after the death of kim
that the people can rise up and take over i don't care if they take which ever system i rather see a different one there rather than see people suffer the world has to improve first before a system of equality can be secured .

[Prairie Fire]

Malangyar

lol, pretty damn funny... :D

But I agree, let's not jump on the zomfgz DPRK is hell on 3arth!!!111oneone bandwagon. I mean sure it's not paradise but it's not like the North Koreans walk around in a perpetual state of über sadness.

I mean they're ordinary people just like everyone else.

I can't help but laugh at all the guys at YouTube who're buying into shit like "Oh if they take one wrong step on their way to school they're probably executed". Let's be realistic here, how long would such a society be able to uphold itself?

There was this video of some South Korean dance group...Baby V.O.X (lol)... who were performing in North Korea in front of all these elderly North Korean officials. (Don't ask me why)

And the North Korean officials were just sitting stiff, not dancing or anything. This, IMHO is quite understandable seeing as how they're elderly people, maybe party officials, and wouldn't be into this kind of thing in the first place. So you wouldn't really be expecting them to jump up and scream like teenagers.

But one look at the video comments, and you got crap like:

"It's like there to scared to fucking budge, or the laughter and fun of life has been systematically removed from them from a young age. "

"Does the communism even suppress the freedom of bodily and facial expressions? The North Koreans look all frozen dead in their dark suits. Kind of funny and sad, actually. "

I mean seriously wtf?!? The Western media propaganda machine truly is remarkable in its achievements. :rolleyes:

Here's the link: www youtube com /watch?v=xo7liYi1kA8

EDIT: Actually, looking at it again the reactions are a bit funny. Would probably get the same reactions if you sent a bunch of teens to a classical music concert. Makes me wonder which party official got this brilliant idea... :rolleyes:

Good point.

I think that when arguing about anything we need to use a little bit of common sense.
There has never, ever, existed a state on the planet earth where people get shot on the spot by government troops for even stepping slightly out of line. Not Pol Pots Kampuchea, not Stalins USSR, not the DPRK.

Understand, most of the people here defending the DPRK are not exactly pro-DPRK.
Most, if not all, of us defendingit have deep reservations and criticisms about their system and government. That said, we are not going to be dishonest and illogical about the DPRK either. We are not going to allege cannibalism, or sexual slavery, or any of that nonsense. We are not going to inflate death tolls, or distort their ideology to sound sinister... Once again I re-itterate, we are not necesarilly down with the DPRK either, but we are not willing to slander it in a dishonest way.

hewhocontrolstheyouth:


the way the North Korea has degenerated is bacause 'socialism in one country' cannot work, ergo,
blame Stalin, North Korea, China and the USSR could have put their pissed differances behind them and create a massive communist landmass that would be a major threat and therefor not need to spend billions on nukes, and could most probably supply each other with the imports that they needed,

i just realised im statring to sound a bit 1984, 'create Eastasia' whooo -.-



Fuck, does Spartan have a brother?

"Okay, You make bold unfounded statements with bad grammer, I'll make even more bold unfounded statements with bad grammer; you quote animal farm as your source, I'll quote 1984. Let's do it, bro!"

Enver Hoxha help us all, if these two form a bloc on rev-left. They are imperivious to logic, while simultaneously dumb as a bag of hammers. Deadly combination.

Oh Orwell, the damage you have done to socialism... you bastard.


Stalin and comintern didnt support the chinese communist party leading to built up resentment

So much resentment, in fact, that the Chinese communist party was one of two major parties to side with Stalins ideologica line during the Sino-soviet split. The CCP upheld Stalin Stalin throughout the duration fo the cold-war, and possibly still does (deep down.).

Moving on...


denounced stalin after his death and after all his promotions may i add

And? Trots and others always say that, that Kruschev only denounced Stalin post-mortem, so it was hypocritical.

Fuck yes, it was hypocritcal! Kruschev was a downright traitor!
What this has to do with Stalin, and how this negates Kruschevs treason, I'll never know.

Redscare102:

North Korea? Alright, while I deeply oppose the North Korean state, we need to avoid sensationalism here. (sadly, the media... doesn't) It's terrible, but it isn't Nazi Germany.

Well, even Nazi Germany... I in no way support it, but read my first post; to this day, a state of that nature has never existed (yet).

MrDie:



Juche is wrong, but it isn't "crazy".

http://redbannerofsongun.org/aindfexplainssongun.html

There are actual explanations and arguments for theories like Songun and such. You can argue that they're weak and wrong, but it isn't like Kim Jong Il said "SONGUN!" and it was so.


Exactly; the most common line about the North Koreans is that they are "insane".
Just because you don't agree with the reasoning behind their decisions (as many of us don't), doesn't mean it's "insane".

It is not "insane" for them to produce nuclear weapons; why do you think there is still any vestiges of socialism in that country at all? Those nuclear weapons have managed to keep encroaching hands at bay for a while now.

It is not "insane" for them bolster their military; in some ways it is practicality (people need jobs, and a living), in other ways it is to defend against imperialism ,which to this day still is trying to make a play for that Peninsulla.

It is not "insane" for them to honour Kim il Sung/Kin Jong il; it is theoretically incorrect, perhaps, but that doesn't mean there is anything medically wrong with anyones brain who came up with that concept.

To promote the line that the DPRK is "insane", is to promote the actions and ideology of the US and it's allies as "sane" in the basis for comparrison. It plays right into their hands, dehumanizes the Koreans, and paves the way for regime change.

Spartan

Let me put it this way, if a white person was saying this it would be deemed racist.

But because a non-white person is applying this to a non-white people it is deemed "Nationalist".


Still haven't reconciled that fascism, eh? I mean, I do know ex-fascists who have completely done a turn-around, abandoning all racist ideas in the process. You seem to have kinks you haven't been worked out yet, because all the right-wing white people I know make that little slip, occasionally ("why can't I be a racist, but non-whites are alllowed to say things that I incorrectly percieve as racist?)

The answer is quite simple; the "white race" do not constitute a nation. Irish aren't the same as English, Germans aren't the same as French, Polish aren't the same as Georgians...

What the Koreans are advocating is nationalism, because the Korean people (Chosun) are a nation. They have a common language, geographic area, customs, traditions, culture. If Kim Jong Il was advocating unity of the "Yellow race", against all others, THAT would be racism. In the meantime, Korean isn't a race, it's a nation (hence this is nationalism).

Does that clear things up? Please look into that slip of yours, spartan.



The USSR however constantly used it to defend their shitty system and to brainwash their subjects into thinking that everything on the "other side" (Free market Liberal Capitalism) was worse.

Of course this wasnt the case at all as the Capitalist countries were, on average, more richer, more industrialized and had more rights concerning freedom of speech then the "Socialist" countries ever did.


Ooooo... you're losing ground, "Comrade".

1. You notice that the capitalist countries were " More richer" (:D) and more industrialized, without making mention to imperialism. Countries like USA and UK industrialized on the backs of the rest of the world; they grew "More richer" through plunder and mercantalism in every corner of the earth.

Considering Albania did it alone, without plunder and pilalge, their system is impressive.

2. The capitalist countries had more freedom of speech? The entire history of the cold-war shows this to be false ( COINTELPRO, McCarthyism, Kent State, etc,etc).
As for the Brainwashing, since you like Wikipedia so much, look up "MK Ultra".

Watch that Capitalist apologism, "Comrade"... Your true bourgeois colours are showing. I see restriction in your future, if you keep that up.


Face it your beloved Stalinist tyrannies were shitholes who's only contribution to Socialism was the failure that most people associate when they hear the word Socialism.

We've been over why that line is naive and stupid, Spartan. Stop beating a dead horse.

Infaam and abject.

Krushchev: Hai guyz, I just figured we can work well together. If all you Chinese harvest food, and if the Koreans mine ore, I'll have the entire population drilling oil, and we can all be a self-sufficient communist landmass, how's that?
Mao: What? You asswipes told us to support the KMT back in '27, you're not getting shit.
Kim: Now now, don't fight. We can just let our people starve, who cares?
Krushchev: Socialism in one country ftw, I got all this from Stalin even though I denounced him. Fat attack!
*Krushchev jumps on Mao and crushes him, they start fighting*
Stalin, in the lowest ring of hell: My plan worked perfectly, I crushed the revolution! *cackles and rubs hands together*

:D

All the A-R's on this board are really funny. Slavyanski, I and A, and even your truly.

We should have like an open mike night on Chit-chat.

"So a Trot, a kruschvite and a Maoist walk into a bar..."

[Jae iLL]

"Commonness of blood" IMO is racist terminology.

In our modern times racism is mostly associated with Nazi Germany (White supremacy) so when a non-white person comes out saying this obviously racist terminology (In reference to a non-white people and their "purity") it should be deemed racist not Nationalist.

Recognizing it as anything other than racist is a case of politically correct double standards as they arent recognizing an obviously racist term as racist because a non-white person is saying it in reference to a non-white people.

I don't see it as being racist at all. Koreans are proud of their thousands of year of homogenity, both North and South. It doesn't mean they think they're better than any one, or inferior to anyone. They're just proud of the fact that they have one blood, one culture, one history for thousands of year.

[spartan]

You Stalinists can answer these questions for me as i would like to know what your responses are:

Did a Bureaucracy exist in the USSR?

What was the Bureaucracies role in the government and economy of the USSR?

Why did members of the Bureaucray have more money, live in bigger houses and have access to better quality goods (And thus a better living standard) then workers?

Why did the Bureaucracy censor anything that they found "unsuitable"?

Why did the USSR have labour camps and what purpose did they serve?

Why did Joseph Stalin exile and later organize Leon Trotsky's murder? (As well as the exiling and murder of lots of the old Bolsheviks who didnt support him?).

Why did the USSR have a personality cult for Joseph Stalin and, though he couldnt do anything about as he was dead, Vladimir Lenin?

Why did the USSR ally themselves with Nazi Germany and carve up eastern Europe between themselves before WW2? (Fascist collaboration).

Why did the USSR trade on the Capitalist market (Making its economy vulnerable to the frequent changes in the Capitalist market) if it was a self described Socialist state striving for self sufficieny?

Was the governing and economic system that the USSR had Socialist? (By Socialist i mean the workers owning and controlling the productive forces in society and the government not Bureaucrats or a party).

Can a Stalinist world advance to the next stage of Communism?

And if it can can it do it peacefully, with the Bureaucrats happily giving up all there power, or will it have to be done via another revolution.

If the Stalinist system was such a success then why, less then a century after its formation, did the USSR collapse and embrace free market Capitalism?

Why do you uphold a system that has tarnished the name of Socialism in the eyes of most in the world? (Is it simply to shock?).

Why believe in a system (Stalinism not Socialism) that has so far failed in every state it has been implemented in?

And finally have you ever read George Orwells "Animal Farm" and "1984" books?

[spartan]

Watch that Capitalist apologism, "Comrade"... Your true bourgeois colours are showing. I see restriction in your future, if you keep that up.
Capitalist apologism!

Can you actually read a post properly?

[spartan]

Still haven't reconciled that fascism, eh? I mean, I do know ex-fascists who have completely done a turn-around, abandoning all racist ideas in the process. You seem to have kinks you haven't been worked out yet, because all the right-wing white people I know make that little slip, occasionally ("why can't I be a racist, but non-whites are alllowed to say things that I incorrectly percieve as racist?)

The answer is quite simple; the "white race" do not constitute a nation. Irish aren't the same as English, Germans aren't the same as French, Polish aren't the same as Georgians...

What the Koreans are advocating is nationalism, because the Korean people (Chosun) are a nation. They have a common language, geographic area, customs, traditions, culture. If Kim Jong Il was advocating unity of the "Yellow race", against all others, THAT would be racism. In the meantime, Korean isn't a race, it's a nation (hence this is nationalism).

Does that clear things up? Please look into that slip of yours, spartan.

Racism is racism.

It doesnt matter whether what is being said is from a "white" mouth or a "black" mouth as it is still racism.

So dont try to make this into something it obviously isnt you opportunist.

[MarxSchmarx]

Mr. Die,

where to begin?

In its most charitable light, you are engaging the pseudo-question of "national liberation." Much ink has been spilled around here on that question. But it all comes down to this:

There is one bourgeosie, one proletariat.

mmmkay? Kim Jong Il and his 60 kids are members of the bourgeosie, just as Carlos Slim and Lakshmi Mittal are. North Korean offices put up his portrait the way construction sites in the U$A fly the stars and stripes. Both are being fooled.

Independence is a lofty goal, as long as it doesn't perpetuate the colonial order. Both Koreas failed in this regard.

As for amping the cult of personality, that's not my doing, it's the doing of Kim Jr. and his daddy.



Only Fascism isn't about glorifying the workers.


But it is about paying lip service to the workers (ever heard of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche ARBEITERpartei?) and turning around and shitting on them while talking about patriotism, "national pride", "ethnic self-determination", the "fuhrer", "eternal president" and other shit.

As for "proof" that the North Koreans can't talk to foreigners without permission, according to wikitravel:


Do not give anything to the local North Koreans or even try to speak to them without permission from your guides.

I've also heard this from several friends who've visited the north. Maybe you'd like to fork over the 3000-some euros they gladly milk from the capitalists and try to see find out for us all?

Hmm.. I'm sure the guides will be happy to have us speak to the local IWW organizers.

[Wanted Man]

As for "proof" that the North Koreans can't talk to foreigners without permission, according to wikitravel:


I've also heard this from several friends who've visited the north. Maybe you'd like to fork over the 3000-some euros they gladly milk from the capitalists and try to see find out for us all?
Plenty of people already did:

Travel report from two Russians (http://www.enlight.ru/camera/dprk/index_e.html)
Website with links to all sorts of DPRK-related media (http://dprk.1accesshost.com/)
List of travel reports with all sorts of biases either way (http://www.stat.ualberta.ca/people/schmu/nk.html)
Travel report with links to many more recent ones with all sorts of biases (http://www.blogjam.com/north-korea/)

You do know that WikiTravel can be edited by agenda-pushers and fear-mongers, who have never even been there, right? I'm not seeing any experiences in the bit you quoted, just a caution from such people.

[spartan]

Look at this Fascist bullshit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM-0NeCYVoY

They are so Fascist that they even goosestep!

I mean look at this pathetic shit here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYGrVTJkS_s

This one is good as it says that tourism is encouraged but look at the contradiction at the end:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zxsOnwsB5A

[Wanted Man]

I mean look at this pathetic shit here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYGrVTJkS_s
Yes, look at those filthy gooks crying from their slitty eyes. Sieg heil kamerad.:rolleyes:

Thanks for posting the other videos, I guess.

[Dros]

A "Fascism" that constantly glorifies the workers, does not have racism, whose nationalism is relatively minor and not really based on ancient traditions, is not imperialistic, is not a puppet of imperialism, and isn't even militaristic in its world outlook.

It is a fascism that allows no control by the workers, ruthlessly persecutes any dissent, allows the leaders to live in oppulent luxury while the masses starve, is highly religious (about their monsterous cults of personality), and is highly militaristic (one of the largest armies in the world).

[Cryotank Screams]

Look at this Fascist bullshit

For fuck's sake quite calling the DPRK 'Fascist'; you're making the term meaningless.

[Prairie Fire]

Spartan:



Capitalist apologism!

Can you actually read a post properly?


I most certainly can, and I did. Here is a direct quotation from your post, which I allready posted:



The USSR however constantly used it to defend their shitty system and to brainwash their subjects into thinking that everything on the "other side" (Free market Liberal Capitalism) was worse.

Of course this wasnt the case at all as the Capitalist countries were, on average, more richer, more industrialized and had more rights concerning freedom of speech then the "Socialist" countries ever did.


You feel that I am insinuating something here, "Comrade"?

In this paragraph alone, you hosed all of the socialist countries, and exalted the capitalist countries. You feel that this does not qualify as capitalist apologism?

Act indignant if you want to, "comrade". I have my eye on you, and your posts.


Racism is racism.

True, and Nationalism is nationalism. I just pointed out the difference to you, but i'll try and break it down further, if I must:

Racism
rac·ism: noun
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

Nationalism
na·tion·al·ism : noun
1: loyalty and devotion to a nation
2: a nationalist movement or government

Hey, while we're at it:

Fascism
fas·cism: noun
1 : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

I hope that this clears things up further.



So dont try to make this into something it obviously isnt you opportunist.

Once again, you seem to think I'm insinuating something that isn't there? I think it's fairly obviosu that you can't tell the difference between a nation and a race, and I think I'm right on the money with my analysis of your "disenfranchised white man" outlook on "racism" in non-whites.

As for you calling me an opportunist, boy, talk about the pot and the fucking kettle!



You Stalinists can answer these questions for me as i would like to know what your responses are:


That is a common, sneaky tactic; you control the questions, therefore you control the direction of the answers. Very capitalist manouver, well played.

Here is an example of what I mean;


Why do you uphold a system that has tarnished the name of Socialism in the eyes of most in the world? (Is it simply to shock?).

A better question would be "DID the system we uphold tarnish the name of socialism in the eyes of most of the world?". I have allready pointed out on SEVERAL OCCASIONS how anti-communism existed before Stalin was even concieved, and it was always viciously used against every workers movement from the first international, to the paris commune, to the Bolsheviki before they took power.

Despite this OFTEN REPEATED analysis, you aren't having any of it. You have your mind set on the idea that it was Stalin who "destroyed the name of socialism", hence that is the incrorrect starting point for your biased questions.

You control the questions ,therefore you make matters that are of your own opinion off limits for discussion, and ask us to conform our answers to your own un-founded prejudices.

Here is another example:



Why believe in a system (Stalinism not Socialism) that has so far failed in every state it has been implemented in?


you don't ask "did it fail", or "why did it fail", you simply start the question, pre-formed within the perimeters of your own baseless prejudices.


Why did the USSR ally themselves with Nazi Germany and carve up eastern Europe between themselves before WW2? (Fascist collaboration).

This is a classic example, as this question has no basis in reality. In this question, not only are you failing to ask "Did they carve up eastern europe before WW2", but you have blatantly confused a non-agression pact with an alliance.

See what I'm talking about? You control the question, therefore you restrict the direction of the answers within your own prejudices.

You might as well ask us "Are you still beating up babies?" (nevermind if we ever did, in the first place.).


They are so Fascist that they even goosestep!

You are aware that goose-stepping is a military manouver that existed prior to fascism, right?

Soviets, Cubans...Many armies around the world goose-step. It is in-efficient perhaps, but there is nothing more inherently evil about it than any other military manouver.

MarxShmarx:


Kim Jong Il and his 60 kids are members of the bourgeosie

60 kids? Cite a source on that one, as I've never heard that before ( I know of like three).

As has been previously stated, either words have meaning, or they don't. Kim Jong Il may be an oppresser (the merits of this argument are debatable,), but he isn't a bourgeoisie, as there is no private property in North korea. The property relations don't exist for there to be a bourgeoisie in DPRK (This is just like spartan calling every system 'fascist').



Independence is a lofty goal, as long as it doesn't perpetuate the colonial order. Both Koreas failed in this regard.


Erm, how so? Say what ever you want about the North, but how can you accuse it of "perpetuating the colonial order"? What vestiges of colonialism (Japanese?) linger in DPRK?

You have no idea what you're talking about,do you?



Hmm.. I'm sure the guides will be happy to have us speak to the local IWW organizers.


He ,he. Cute.

Purely out of Curiosity, is there any "local IWW organizers" in Pyongyang, or anywhere else in DPRK?

I think it's cute, because you will probably go and say "Well, the government is oppressing us, so we can't start a branch there."

Yes, that's the problem :rolleyes:. look ,I used to roll with the wobs as a Canadian young persyn, and I'll recall that recently a person in Victoria wanted to join. Anyways, they were directed to the Edmonton general membership branch, because in all of the canadian province of of British columbia, there was not a decent "local organizer' to refer him to.

There is no overt political repression in most of Canada, and yet the IWW doesn't exactly "thrive" here. Silly wobbly.

[chimx]

Yes, look at those filthy gooks crying from their slitty eyes. Sieg heil kamerad.

That was uncalled for.

Although it is interesting that the term "gook" comes from the Korean word for American: "mi-gook". Korean kids would run up to American soldiers during the Korea war saying what sounded like, "me gook". This comical misunderstanding slowly warped into a racist phrase.

--

A central tenet of fascism is anti-communism. Although the political model might be similar, it is not related to the fascist movement, and calling it fascist seems pretty irrelevant.


Yes, look at those filthy gooks crying from their slitty eyes. Sieg heil kamerad.

Actually the North is currently working on a policy to create special economic zones that will allow foreign investors into the DPRK, very similar to China during the late 70s.

Also, production is managed and overseen by an authoritarian undemocratic state where workers have no control. Property is not in the hands of workers. And if it isn't in their hands, than whose hands is it in?

[spartan]

In this paragraph alone, you hosed all of the socialist countries, and exalted the capitalist countries. You feel that this does not qualify as capitalist apologism?

No i was stating a fact.

You tried to tarnish this basic fact by stating how the Capitalist countries got to the stage of being richer than the State Capitalist countries, when that wasnt even part of the discussion.

And those countries arent Socialist (Where is the evidence to prove that the workers owned and controlled all productive forces in these states?) so i will "hose" (Whatever that means?) them all i want as you Stalinists are upholding a system that has more in common with Fascism then it does with Socialism.


Act indignant if you want to, "comrade". I have my eye on you, and your posts.

You are more likely to be restricted then me (Seeing how you are a Stalinist which is still a restrictable offence as far as i know) so please dont threaten me as it just shows you as incapable of defending your position.

Your insinuating is almost as ridiculous as your political beliefs, but i have come to expect such underhand tactics from a Stalinist as it is a well known fact that when you lot cant defeat the arguement, you try to tarnish the person who started the arguement to undermine it (Case in point being George Orwell).

The trouble is that it is not going to work with me so dont bother trying in the future!

[spartan]

And those countries arent Socialist (Where is the evidence to prove that the workers owned and controlled all productive forces in these states?)

Where is the evidence to prove that they didn't?

If you are going by the "Well if there is no evidence to prove that it didnt exist" logic then you would sound like one of those Christians defending their belief in a non-existent God.

It simply doesnt work that way!

Until something is proved to be a reality it is simply illogical to believe in it.

Now i personally beleive that a Bureaucracy existed in the USSR and that the modes of production in the USSR werent Socialist but State Capitalist (Think of the economies of the Capitalist states during WW2 where everything was produced for the benefit of the state and those in power who could whatever they wanted with it).

IYO did a Bureaucracy exist in the USSR?

And if so then what was its role in the USSR's government and economy?

There is no controlling of the questions there.

[Random Precision]

Raven, why are you spelling "person" as "persyn"? It kinda creeps me out, because that's what the MIM spelling is (I think). Just wondering.

[spartan]

Raven, why are you spelling "person" as "persyn"? It kinda creeps me out, because that's what the MIM spelling is (I think). Just wondering.

There is no way that is a slip of the keyboard either as "Y" is two to three spaces away from "O" and not right next to it.

Anyway MIM are a bunch of nutters!

[Prairie Fire]

IYO did a Bureaucracy exist in the USSR?


That's better.

Yes, a beauracracy did exist, although Stalin tried to regulate it's rise.
It' role in the soviet economy was that of the organizational arm of the centrally planned economy.

hope lies in the prols:



Raven, why are you spelling "person" as "persyn"? It kinda creeps me out, because that's what the MIM spelling is (I think). Just wondering.


I sometimes slip, but usually I spell it persyn to try and remove undertones of sexism. that is why MIM doe sit, but they take it to the next level, with thier United $nake$ of Amerikkka bullshit.

[Robespierre2.0]

2. The capitalist countries had more freedom of speech? The entire history of the cold-war shows this to be false ( COINTELPRO, McCarthyism, Kent State, etc,etc).
As for the Brainwashing, since you like Wikipedia so much, look up "MK Ultra".

Hey, I'm kind of curious about this point. Did the socialist nations of the 20th century (revisionist or otherwise) restrict freedom of speech or censor media more or less than capitalist nations?

It's not that I disagree with it- When the rest of the world is made up of capitalist nations eager to do whatever they can to destabilize the socialist regime, repression is absolutely necessary.

However, ignoring economics, it seems to me that we do have more 'freedom of speech' here in the western world. I've openly expressed my Stalinism at school and not been hauled off by the CIA. I know in reality it amounts to little more than a 'freedom to babble', our voices will always be drowned out by that of the private media, and that the bourgeois will take this freedom away the second they feel threatened, but was it really that much different/more restrictive in the socialist world? If you ran down the street yelling "Stalin (or even Kruschev) is a ****!" would the NKVD arrest you?

Again, it's just curiosity- I see no problem with restricting anti-socialist speech.

Also, I seriously LOL'd at "dumb as a bag of hammers".

Sorry about the thread hijacking...

[spartan]

I sometimes slip, but usually I spell it persyn to try and remove undertones of sexism. that is why MIM doe sit, but they take it to the next level, with thier United $nake$ of Amerikkka bullshit.

I can understand spelling "women" as "womyn" but how is the word "person" sexist?

[Ismail]

Son. You know, son, as in male.

[spartan]

Son. You know, son, as in male.

I never used to think of it like that before!

Thanks for informing me.

[Ismail]

Authoritarian Communist 1
Anarchist Turned "utopian Socialist" Turned Democratic Socialist 0

[spartan]

Authoritarian Communist 1
Anarchist Turned "utopian Socialist" Turned Democratic Socialist 0

Hardly seeing how:

1) It wasnt a competition.

and

2) The "son" in "person" is most probably entirely coincidental.

[jake williams]

I just EtymOnline'd it. They're totally unrelated. "Person" is reasonably recent Latin, "Son" is from some old-as-ass Germanic root.

[SamiBTX]

North Korea is an embarassment, they have nothing to do with communism,
at least not anymore.

[Lenin II]

HOLY FUCKING CRAP, did this thread get sidetracked. How did we get from debating Juche and Kim-Jong Il to the Latin sex origins of certain words? Let's get back on topic.

And Marxasaurous Rex, freedom of speech does not exist in capitalist countries at all, it is merely an illusion. If you yell to loudly, they will come for you. It is true that right now, none of us are being jailed by the CIA, but that is because there is not a strong communist movement in the United States. Just wait until we gain power and people start to "dissapear."

And in many capitalist countries, it is illegal to form a communist party, vote if you are a communist, or even to be a communist.

[kromando33]

.
Anyway MIM are a bunch of nutters!
Because they don't conform to your reformist bourgeois view of 'socialism', I am quite sure such revolutionaries are used to being called 'nutters' or whatever by the bourgeois establishment, you are just another tool of theres simply disguised in a different uniform, 'social democracy' or whatever, just more bourgeois tools.

[spartan]

Because they don't conform to your reformist bourgeois view of 'socialism'

No its because the MIM are nutters.

So lets see the HU supports the MIM and doesnt support the fight against oppression of minorities.

What a progressive left thinking organization.

[Marsella]

Is it still illegal for communists to stand as union labor leaders?

(In the Glorious Republic of the US and A, I mean)