Rebuilding Socialism through the Green movement?

[spartan]

Seeing how Socialism is far from the force it was 20 years ago in Britain do you think that we should be rebuilding our Socialist movement in conjunction with the various, very popular, Green movements?

Green politics appeal to alot more people then Socialism does, so if we associate ourselves with this currently popular and very Liberal (Not Liberal in the economic sense but in their attitude towards life) political movement, we might be able to attract the disaffected people that the Green movements seem to attract to an anti-Capitalist stance as well as their Green stance?

Some right wing Nationalists have already seen an opportunity to get support from this large movement by their espousing of Green values.

Socialism, in conjunction with the various Green movements and through the enviroment arguement, can rebuild itself and become a major force again in British politics IMO.

What are your opinions on this?

[Dimentio]

The problem with the green movement is that it is lacking substance. That could also be a good thing, because it could then be used to increase the support of anything. NET has employed this strategy with success.

[kromando33]

Green environmentalist movements are nothing but left opportunists and bourgeois liberals.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

But they're so annoying...

[spartan]

Green environmentalist movements are nothing but left opportunists and bourgeois liberals.

I know it can often seem that way, seeing how Green enviromentalism is in vogue with all the Populist politicians and celebrities, but it isnt the Green movements fault that these people want to latch onto it to appear in touch with a popular issue to get votes or support for selling a new product.

Most non-Socialist Greens could probably be easily persuaded to think that Capitalism is the main obstacle to the adoption of Green measures to prevent a global catastrophe (Which it is).

There are millions of people who are Green supporters and we cant allow them to fall into the hands of the Populist Capitalist politicians like David Cameron or even some far right parties who have been espousing Green credentials recently.

[kromando33]

I know it can often seem that way, seeing how Green enviromentalism is in vogue with all the Populist politicians and celebrities, but it isnt the Green movements fault that these people want to latch onto it to appear in touch with a popular issue to get votes or support for selling a new product.

Most non-Socialist Greens could probably be easily persuaded to think that Capitalism is the main obstacle to the adoption of Green measures to prevent a global catastrophe (Which it is).

There are millions of people who are Green supporters and we cant allow them to fall into the hands of the Populist Capitalist politicians like David Cameron or even some far right parties who have been espousing Green credentials recently.
Do not get me wrong, 'environmentalism' itself has an important part to play in a socialist movement, and indeed I would like to see a good Marxist analysis of it's role. But fundamentally 'environmentalism' isn't the be-all and end-all, we are about the human role in the relations of production, albeit it is important to note that capitalism by it's very mechanic cannot recognize the 'value' of social or environmental costs to production.

But the rest of your post does seem very opportunistic to me, we should be using environmentalism as a 'Trojan horse' for socialism. As you may know, I am from Tasmania in Australia, about 90% of our area is old forests, and the 'green' environmental movement really started here. But fundamentally alliances or coalitions between greens and socialist groups does not work mainly on the issue of proletarianization, we should be seeking that to revolutionize the working class and build heavy industry. The Green party here just can't get past it's whole notion of the propagandistic and obsession with bourgeois elections.

[R_P_A_S]

is it just me? or do any of you get the vibe from some of this liberal greens do this so they can sleep better at night? most of the time i get this "high and mighty" attitude from some of them...

"i recycle and i eat organic!" so i rule! and you should do it to! or else you suck. lol

lots of working class people don't have the time, know how and money to shop at the posh whole foods markets. or whatever makes rich people feel good about "saving the earth"

[spartan]

is it just me? or do any of you get the vibe from some of this liberal greens do this so they can sleep better at night? most of the time i get this "high and mighty" attitude from some of them...

"i recycle and i eat organic!" so i rule! and you should do it to! or else you suck. lol

lots of working class people don't have the time, know how and money to shop at the posh whole foods markets. or whatever makes rich people feel good about "saving the earth"

I understand what you are saying as i used to be against all this Enviromentalism stuff simply because it was all you would hear on the news (This led me to thinking that it was just a conspiracy).

But the whole organic food shite is just Capitalisms way of dealing with something that is going to cost them alot of money.

Indeed one could say that global warming could lead to the material conditions necessary for Socialism?

[Demogorgon]

I must admit that I often tend towards thinking entryism is a good political tactic. So if the Green movement continues to rise in popularity and it still tends towards being vaguely left wing, it might be an idea to give it a go. At least in certain parts of the world.

[INDK]

The only objection I have (and I am directing this toward the OP), is that 1.) Eco-Socialism is already an ideology, and it is an ideology of content and actual political theory - and 2.) Green politics lack that political (as well as economic) theory, instead they substitute sound politics with huge emphasis on environmentalism and social justice and 3.) Green politics and politicians may be vaguely left-wing, socially - but this definitely does not make 'em socialists, which I don't believe they are nor do I think they claim to be. I don't think Greens should be taken seriously as Leftists.

[Random Precision]

Well, my own group, the International Socialist Organization, has done some work alongside the Green Party in the US. This is not because we agree with their liberal/reformist goals, but rather because there are many good activists within that movement, some of whom are very much open to a further shift leftward in their politics. I think that is the one benefit for us that the Greens provide.

So as to your question, I think that the Green movement essentially lacks direction and well-defined politics, which should stop us from openly uniting with their organizations. Furthermore, rather than trying to fool people into thinking that we're not revolutionary socialists for fear of offending them, we should explain our goals straight up. I also agree with Kromando (for those of you keeping score, write that down, because it won't happen again) that environmentalism has a definite role to play in the Marxist movement and that we need to adopt a clear perspective on environmental issues, which many of us do not have the best track record on.

[Janus]

What are your opinions on this?
Jumping on the bandwagon because of popular support is rarely a tenable and effective, long-term strategy. Furthermore, the Green movement is a rather diverse group politically and while environmentalism implies an anti-corporatist attitude, it does not necessarily require a solid anti-capitalist stance. Attempting to attract leftist Greens by/or coordinating on certain issues is one thing, but uniting with the movement itself is another.

[INDK]

Jumping on the bandwagon because of popular support is rarely a tenable and effective, long-term strategy. Furthermore, the Green movement is a rather diverse group politically and while environmentalism implies an anti-corporatist attitude, it does not necessarily require a solid anti-capitalist stance. Attempting to attract leftist Greens by/or coordinating on certain issues is one thing, but uniting with the movement itself is another.

Another solid point I must agree with. I just overall think Green politics can't save Socialism, only Socialism can do that. Of course, I would support extending solidarity and working with Greens if our struggle for liberty is, at a specific time, intertwined.

[Radek]

Those I know who have campaigned a lot on green issues tell me that it is really a very middle class issue. When they go to poorer areas there is far more interest in crime, welfare, and things of that nature. Obviously it is still important to continue the push to protect our environment, but if this is the case then it would seem that using the Green parties as a vehicle would have limited use for a socialist party.