The poors in USA

[Dimentio]

I cannot understand why the most impoverished and backward states in the USA choses to support the Republicans, of all parties? I mean, it is not so that the Republicans are really expressing the class interests of hillbillies?

[bootleg42]

Religion, propaganda, and the "culture" that the U.S. has created of capitalism all lead to such things. Of course voting for a democrat makes no difference either.

[lvleph]

In the US people have been led to believe that Democrats raise taxes and Republicans lower taxes. In fact, Dems raise it for the rich and Reps lower it for the rich. But Americans generally don't look at the whole picture and typically believe all the propaganda the US tells them.

[Zurdito]

there is the matter of competition for resources between different "communities". the white rural working class may belive that the Democrats will diversify resource towards the industrial proletariat and the black community. many may still feel they lost out on priveliges inthe civil rights era?

I may be wrong but I'm led to believe that many "hillbillies" are in fact small-scale land-owners, and while often struggling economically, relatively wealthy compared to the urban poor. true?

[jake williams]

Yeah. It's a whole historical thing, I was explaining a bit of this to my Jordanian friend the other day, the whole "left-right" thing really, he didn't get it.

Basically, as far as I understand it - oversimplifying a whole lot, with the Enlightenment and the French Revolution you get liberals and reactionaries, the latter lining up with the Church and the King. While they disagree with so many basic Enlightenment values, their alignment with the Church and even with feudalism makes them, ironically, in some ways friendlier to the poor, at least recognizing them as existing, than the new capitalists, who ultimately derived their ideology from the Enlightenment.

Marx's rather sour opinion, then, towards the social-democrats wasn't just because they were opposed to revolution - they actually grew out of the European, reactionary feudal tradition.


Anyway, after 200 years of world history, and more intensely, the horrible distortion of political traditions done by the American machine (this effect can't be understated - virtually every political term I can think of, liberal, socialist, fascist, libertarian, democracy, communism, conservative - all of these things are horribly twisted in the new American lexicon, meaning nothing like what they used to)... but anyway, what you effectively get is, on one hand, a neoliberal capitalist class ultimately from the Enlightenment, who brings a strange mix of things but for economic reasons is totally detached from the poor, and a "conservative" tradition from the old aristocracy which becomes the ironic party of the poor because it shares a social tradition through things like the church.

I mean, there're all kinds of twists and turns here, and America is just awful. What one should understand, I think, is that virtually all political classification extant or historical in America is for arbitrary historical reasons. The Democrats are theoretically the liberal, more modern party (at least in its modern incarnation, there've been twists and turns within the parties themselves), whereas the Republicans are more conservative.

What gets complicated is that the Democrats actually have much of their history in the poor South, basically populist. So they've picked up that influence, even though they're obviously, I mean, in some ways especially now but really always, a capitalist ruling class party. The Republicans, on the other hand, are just straight reactionaries, though they've managed to twist themselves, and firmly, into a populist base.


I don't know. Truth is, there're so many contradictions you can't even talk about it. Short answer: weird historical reasons.

[Red October]

Simply put, much of the rural poor in America, along with much of the urban poor, are deeply religious and will support politicians which reflect their religious values. Since they are not class conscious, they don't vote based on class interests. Also, the republican party has cast itself as the party of "small government" that will cut taxes for the average people and keep the government from interfering in their lives. Of course, those benefits only really apply if you're a rich white male.

[More Fire for the People]

Look up the phrases 'culture war' and 'hegemony'. Then check out Antonio Gramsci.

[Comrade Nadezhda]

In America, the people who are exploited and thrown further into regressive cultures are blinded by religion and bourgeois morals. In urban areas, there are drugs, violence, crime, gangs, and other elements of lumpenproletarian regression. In rural areas, there is mass poverty.

In the very few times when I have gone out the city or nearby surrounding towns, I have seen people living in horrible conditions. I drive by a house the size of my room in the apartment I rent several times a month. The family living there was nearly evicted. I'm not sure who is living there now , the house was going to be torn down. There were boards on almost every window and on the front door. Last week I drove past the same house and realized there was light shining between the boards. There was light coming through all the cracks in the boards.

Also, when I very young I lived a block down from a family that almost got thrown off their property 5 or 6 times. I remember when I was twelve or so, the property was seized. They lived in that house 10 years or more and when it was seized the house was cleaned out. I remember seeing mattresses with urine and mold on them. It made me sick. I met the daughter a few times, and I talked to her. Her father and mother were injured in a car accident and the three of them lived in that house. Her mother lost both of her legs. They didn't have water, electricity or plumming. It made me feel ill that a family would have to live in such horrible conditions- and how the bourgeoisie can just turn their heads and say "they have a choice". They don't "choose" to live that way. No, they don't. I think of that family and I wonder to this moment- are they alive.

The truth is, the bourgeoisie only does what they can obtain capital from. That's what bourgeois democracy is- [I]democracy for the bourgeois.

[Comrade Rage]

I cannot understand why the most impoverished and backward states in the USA choses to support the Republicans, of all parties? I mean, it is not so that the Republicans are really expressing the class interests of hillbillies?I would have to say it has something to do with perception and education. Poor people in poor cities or poor districts in cities tend to be raised by people with somewhat more progressive values and politics, while poor people in the boondocks are usually brought up with a much more religious orientation. Such backwards religious prejudices are present in the cities, but to a lesser extent.


It made me feel ill that a family would have to live in such horrible conditions- and how the bourgeoisie can just turn their heads and say "they have a choice". They don't "choose" to live that way. No, they don't. I think of that family and I wonder to this moment- are they alive.Whenever I hear the issue of homelessness being debated on radio, the bourgeosie hosts also try to trot out that these people 'choose' to live that way, and they're not talking of, for instance, couch surfers, they're talking about whether or not we should have shelters, etc. It's sickening to me too.

[Raúl Duke]

Whenever I hear the issue of homelessness being debated on radio, the bourgeosie hosts also try to trot out that these people 'choose' to live that way, and they're not talking of, for instance, couch surfers, they're talking about whether or not we should have shelters, etc. It's sickening to me too.

Yeah, also the "middle class" seems to have many misconceptions about the nature of crime, opportunity in this society (they, erroneously, think there's opportunities for everyone. Of course from their perspective probably so but not in the perspective of lower working class.), unemployment, and welfare.

Because of their misconceptions they start ratting off some barbaric conclusions.

(Probably part of the whole "culture war" or false conscious thing)

[Comrade Rage]

Because of their misconceptions they start ratting off some barbaric conclusions.

(Probably part of the whole "culture war" or false conscious thing)
Culture War probably plays a part in it, but I've heard more justification for mandatory prayer in school from the Culture Warriors.

[Zurdito]

I still think all the interpretations have concentrated far too much on the subjective factor. sure, it's a part, but there has to be some material root.

I propose that it's because these states do not have a large proletariat comparable to the North-East. It's no coincidence that rural regions are more religious is it? They aren't a poor, rural petty-bourgeoisie because they're christian, are they? it's the other way round.

like I said before if I really got that interpretation wrong, can someone tell me? because it would represent a huge gap in my knowledge if so.

[More Fire for the People]

WTF, most Southerners are service-sector proletarians, agricultural proletarians ( most farmers do not own their farms, they are contracted labor ), and lumpenproletarians. I think I would know too.

[Comrade Nadezhda]

Whenever I hear the issue of homelessness being debated on radio, the bourgeosie hosts also try to trot out that these people 'choose' to live that way, and they're not talking of, for instance, couch surfers, they're talking about whether or not we should have shelters, etc. It's sickening to me too.
The bourgeoisie attempt to justify, through all possible means, to convince proletarians that they can change it. Now that you mention, I have heard countless bourgeois radio hosts throughout many years of my life saying the same thing in various ways- that the people living in the worst conditions of all of society can change it by going to college, getting a job, etc. etc. They speak of it in a way which gives the working class blind faith in bourgeois society, in capitalism.

In the southern part of the U.S., the rural proletariat is much greater. They can be compared in that they sell their labor in the same way that proletarians do in urban areas- just for different work, agricultural. Many live in great poverty. The bourgeoisie has succeeded in convincing them that prayer is the answer- and through their hopelessness and lack of class-consciousness they are blind to it.

The bourgeois radio hosts talk of how prayer would benefit the inner city. The same people who try to bring religion into public schools. It gets me angry because what they need is to break free of bourgeois morals, religion and the lies. They need to become class-conscious and that cannot happen when they are blinded my religion and bourgeois values. The regressive lumpenproletarian culture in the innercity does not help either, but blinding them with prayer will only give them false hope- it won't actually change anything.

[bootleg42]

The bourgeois radio hosts talk of how prayer would benefit the inner city. The same people who try to bring religion into public schools. It gets me angry because what they need is to break free of bourgeois morals, religion and the lies. They need to become class-conscious and that cannot happen when they are blinded my religion and bourgeois values.

Then maybe we could start (in that specific case) by challenging these "religious values" to begin with before even getting to socialism, class conscience, etc, not by ATTACKING THEM, but by teaching them. If we can defeat spiritualism and allow people to see materialism, then we'd probably make a HUGE jump to the correct direction.

Also listening works really well. This way you can get a sense of what they feel in this "religion", therefore giving you more info to defeat it.


The regressive lumpenproletarian culture in the innercity does not help either, but blinding them with prayer will only give them false hope- it won't actually change anything.

I've been fighting that for a long time, I've only lived in the poor inner city. It's REGRESSIVE as hell and holds everyone back, and it makes the inner city youth admire figures of power while killing proletariats (ex: they'll admire the money and power of a Donald Trump, saying they'd wish to get to be a street version of that, but they'd kill or rob other poor people in the area, mocking them for being so poor, calling them things like a "broke ass *****").

But I think we must CORRECTLY identify who EXACTLY in the inner city are lumpenproletariat and who are not. The big bosses and "OG's" in the lumpenproletariat today are TRUE lumpenproletariat. The kids who are mind controlled by them are NOT YET lumpenproletariat and any inner city comrade must NOT identify these kids as lumpenproletariat so quickly.

I think a study into the lumpenproletariat culture in the inner city (driven even more by the market BTW) is called for from a class analysis point of view.

[Zurdito]

WTF, most Southerners are service-sector proletarians, agricultural proletarians ( most farmers do not own their farms, they are contracted labor ), and lumpenproletarians. I think I would know too.

hah fair enough, like I said I was giving a suggestion based on the best information I had, and asking for more info. so thanks for telling me.

I suppose a lot of the conservatism must come down to historical priveliges over the black community then, rather like working class Protestant in Northern Ireland, who are often found fighting against their own class interest due to having that certain amount of traditional favouritsm from the ruling class?

[Sergei Simonov]

Religion isn't the only reason poor and working class white Americans continue to support odious right wing politicians.

Firearms ownership is an enormous political issue in the States. And it's not because white American workers are ignorant cracker yahoos who like to randomly fire weapons into the air, spit tobacco juice, and let out rebel yells. It's because the bourgeois state exists to serve and protect the capitalist class and workers are left largely to their own devices to protect themselves from the violence and chaos of the lumpenproletariat. This means the proletariat needs guns.

[peaccenicked]

America like Britain is wrapped in identity politics, class is obscured. Even the poor blame themselves. The Imperial traditions of both countries are embedded in a common psyche, that to breach is almost treachery. Most people believe that the economy is sound fundamentally. It is merely bad luck to be on the receiving end of unemployment, foreclosure, or fraud. The US and more so the British economy is heading for a dive unprecedented in history. The rug will be truly ripped from under their feet both in an ideological way (identity with the State) and economically. A recession that cannot resolve itself as the empire recedes.

[kromando33]

Actually if you across America, it's actually quite gloomy, much of the country is like a run-down peasant nation, people are really angry about their material conditions yet don't know who to be angry at, the right-wing media of course ensure that they don't put their blame where the problem is - capitalism. Instead it's a ripe ground for religious hucketerists and conspiracy theorists, America has more cults in the world than any other country. People it seems would rather believe anything, including outright lies and garbage.

[peaccenicked]

Actually if you across America, it's actually quite gloomy, much of the country is like a run-down peasant nation, people are really angry about their material conditions yet don't know who to be angry at, the right-wing media of course ensure that they don't put their blame where the problem is - capitalism. Instead it's a ripe ground for religious hucketerists and conspiracy theorists, America has more cults in the world than any other country. People it seems would rather believe anything, including outright lies and garbage.
__________________

This is only one sde of the truth..Scratch a religious fanatic or a wild conspiracy theorist and you'll find a patriot who will tell you ever so wrongly what the country is being ruined by.

[MT5678]

America is today still filled with the Horatio Algers myth, which shifts the focus away from class. Also, the South has had a rich history of white solidarity festivals dating back to the late 1600s. The attitude is almost subonscious at this point.

The American proletariat will never revolt. Not in a thousand years or a million. We shall form our Comintern in places like Bolivia, Kenya, Bangladesh, Bihar and Orissa (Maoists are engaging the police here), China (all 150 mil rural migrants gotta do something right), and maybe even Pakistan (which holds the dubious distinction of being one of the only Arab countries that the IMF has raided). And more. Tell me if I missed any.

[Luís Henrique]

Pakistan (which holds the dubious distinction of being one of the only Arab countries...

By the fucking beard of the fucking prophet, Pakistan is not an Arab country!

Luís Henrique

[bootleg42]

The American proletariat will never revolt.

I felt the same a while ago but there is a potential there. Not NOW but a potential. Lets see all the riots there were in the 90's (LA, Crown Heights in Brooklyn, etc). There is plenty of anger from the proletariat and it exists but they are all directing the anger at the wrong direction. There are white people who blame either the government in power (suggesting that the state itself is not the problem, just the current people in it) or blame other proletariat in the region and there are black people who only follow, blindly, the black bourgeoisie (majority of who are religious), who set them back. This black bourgeoisie only seems interested in getting the black population in the capitalist game. They want the blacks to have the same opportunities in capitalism as white statistically have and they would be satisfied with that. They themselves become rich and separated from the poorest of blacks.


Not in a thousand years or a million. We shall form our Comintern in places like Bolivia, Kenya, Bangladesh, Bihar and Orissa (Maoists are engaging the police here), China (all 150 mil rural migrants gotta do something right), and maybe even Pakistan (which holds the dubious distinction of being one of the only Arab countries that the IMF has raided). And more. Tell me if I missed any.

I don't believe that'll happen as those countries still have majority peasant populations. If you're going to have a proletariat revolution, you're going to have to have areas with overwhelmingly majority PROLETARIAT population. These places don't have enough proletariat. If these areas have any revolution, it'll be to create a proletariat......meaning installing a capitalism made by themselves...not one imposed by Europe or Washington. History has shown us this. It doesn't mean we still can't work in these areas, but it means that we have to be ready to expect these things should they happen.

[INDK]

The American proletariat will never revolt.

The American proletariat won't revolt now or in the near future, nor will any other country's proletariat. However, revolution is possible anywhere, even if it doesn't begin in the US and only spreads to the US. Now stop being so pessimistic and look to world revolution. Bah.

[peaccenicked]

The trick is not to be only empirical. That is look at the here and now and take that as the future given. The thing is to be dialectical and look at the general course of develoopment. The squeeze is on, it is only a matter of time before people start generalising from their own experience and that is a definition of Marxism-the generalised experience of the working class.When the comforts go through inflation and the necessities go through foreclosure and unemployment, polarising events take place such as huge strikes. Real politics is put on peoples agenda, a politics that along with defeat in Iraq and Afghanistan spell a gravedigger to the Murdoch fantasy world which dominates the US and the UK