Log in

View Full Version : Defining Socialism as refuting Revisionism



kromando33
9th January 2008, 07:37
Marxism does not 'promise' utopia as left opportunists seems to suggest, in reality it's these left-liberals and the intellectually-over giddy anarchists and 'democratic' socialists that are the political equivalents of snake oil salesmen, with nice bombastic empty rhetoric but no practical analysis of reality which only material dialectics can provide. It's quite the opposite actually, Marxist socialism does not promise anything overnight, it promises nothing straight away but reality, truth and a practical process to change that scientific proof. Marxism is analysis of material conditions and how those material conditions mold reality, thus the disproportionate wealth gap naturally causes class struggle. Marxism is the unflinching desire to see reality unclouded by any ideological or spiritual delusions, to see it wholly and completely materially.

Marxism is thus not an ideological which are spiritual but a science. Analysis of reality tells us unequal material conditions cause class struggle, at the moment in most countries of the world the 'dictatorship of the bourgeois(capitalist class)' have control, and thus that state exists to serve that class specifically, all it's legal framework and institutions exist solely to protect that class. The 'dictatorship of the proletariat' is literally the 'dictatorship of the bourgeois' 'turned on it's head', the workers overthrow the bourgeois in a revolution and replace their dictatorship with their own. This worker's state is socialism, a process by which the proletarian dictatorship represses the bourgeois and liquidates them from society, this is class struggle, and communism can only be achieved once these bourgeois reactionary people and tendencies are weeded out of society. This process (socialism) requires an amount of self-criticism in society. As Marx this process of socialism would result in either the victory of one class or the contending ruin of both.

Modern 'reformist' leftism, like social democracy, is simply false because it assumes that the bourgeois power can remain intact (and indeed grow) while socialism can be built. This is false because it does not understand that the bourgeois dictatorship exists as the purest example of classist self-interest. And though eager to shroud it's dictatorship in decorative niceties such as 'civil freedoms', 'personal freedom' and the 'rule of law', the bourgeois dictatorship will as quickly dispense with these superficialities if their power is threatened by the working class.

Fundamentally then, building socialism and class struggle are indeed mutually indispensable, if not the same concept. Building a society based upon the overthrow of all existing social relations into a classless and completely free society; ie socialism, can only be achieved when the bourgeois class enemies of communism are liquidated. Communism is essence cannot exist if parts of society oppose it, the society is so interdependent that it will only truly exist when the states of mind of the populace have experienced this revolution. Socialism is therefore the class struggle, characterized by an imperfect implementation of collectivist ideals, whereby the class enemies are liquidated by every part of society. Marx's conclusion is that the proletarianization of the working class breeds communistic relations, that is that socialism spells communism. Try to imagine it like this:

Bourgeois dictatorship - Can be at varying degrees, whether social democratic 'New Deal' societies, which shows the bourgeois is weak and is trying to bribe the proletariat, or even radical free market 'globalized' economies, whereby the bourgeois is in much greater control; both representing the bourgeois state in different clothing differing on how well or badly is to doing in the class struggle against organized labor - that is in repressing the working class.

Proletarian dictatorship - Can be effectively judged by it's prosecution of the class struggle, generally as socialism moves further along the bourgeois will become more and more desperate in tactics to dislodge the dictatorship, the kulaks would be a good example of this. Even beyond this they may infiltrate the party, as happened in China and the USSR. Generally the proletarian dictatorship is at it's most vulnerable by revisionist and deviationist tendencies in it's own parties, will threaten to usurp the state and replace it with the bourgeois one, thus counter-revolution and revolution.

bloody_capitalist_sham
9th January 2008, 08:15
Even beyond this they may infiltrate the party, as happened in China and the USSR. Generally the proletarian dictatorship is at it's most vulnerable by revisionist and deviationist tendencies in it's own parties, will threaten to usurp the state and replace it with the bourgeois one, thus counter-revolution and revolution.

How does the bourgeoisie infiltrate the party? What is the process to this?



This worker's state is socialism, a process by which the proletarian dictatorship represses the bourgeois and liquidates them from society, this is class struggle, and communism can only be achieved once these bourgeois reactionary people and tendencies are weeded out of society.

How does your analysis deal with the fact hundreds of thousands of people from the ruling class in socialist countries voluntarily went to capitalist countries during 1989 to 1991?

Also, in your analysis why has the ruling class in socialist societies been unable to defend their state from counter-revolution, despite their ownership of the economy and huge numerical advantage and control over state power?

BobKKKindle$
9th January 2008, 08:40
Even beyond this they may infiltrate the party, as happened in China and the USSR. Generally the proletarian dictatorship is at it's most vulnerable by revisionist and deviationist tendencies in it's own parties


The concept of a revisionst tendency at the highest level of the party has, in the past, been used as a justification for the removal and brutal persuectution of any party member who tried to pose a challenge to the centre of power and change the the way the party was organised - it is foolish to see the movements that arose from the suppossed need to combat revisionism as an expression of democracy, as such movements were always initiated by the centre and were always subject to careful control, such that when they became unstable and moved in a more genuinely radical direction, measures were taken to restore order - as shown, for example, in Mao's expulsion of the Red Guards to the country side when China was faced with the possibility of internal conflict between various rival factions.

If a bourgeois takeover is a geuine risk, the the most sensible course of action is to create a party based on a more decentralised structure such that there is no single post that allows an individual to impose demands on the lower sections of the party and suppress discussion.

Maoists (and all others who uphold this idea) need to show why China was able to undergo a counter-revolution, following Deng Xiao Ping's rise to power and implementation of market reform - surely this indicates that the GPCR was a failure?

FireFry
9th January 2008, 09:06
when the bourgeois class enemies of communism are liquidated

Is this a similar phenomenon to when the bourgeois class enemies are vaporised?

hahahaha... pun intended.

Okay, this is all nice, except, where it says "bourgeois" replace it with "capitalising owners of property". It's far less vague. Some reforms

I have a problem with this..

Proletarian dictatorship - Can be effectively judged by it's prosecution of the class struggle, generally as socialism moves further along the bourgeois will become more and more desperate in tactics to dislodge the dictatorship, the kulaks would be a good example of this. Even beyond this they may infiltrate the party, as happened in China and the USSR. Generally the proletarian dictatorship is at it's most vulnerable by revisionist and deviationist tendencies in it's own parties, will threaten to usurp the state and replace it with the bourgeois one, thus counter-revolution and revolution.

You're theory at best is a conspiracy theorist one, that the communist parties in China and the USSR were "infiltrated" by western bourgeois spies or roaders and were confused somehow and then magically adopted capitalist systems. Haha.

No, what happened was that the members of the communist party were originally not saints or heroes of the working class, as lenin would have hoped for you to believe. What happened was that these people in the party were natives of the country itself and were possibly even originally members of the working class, however, most of them were peasants (especially in China) and they saw the sweet deals that Western capitalist nations have, and they wanted to "capitalise" on it. Plus, not to mention the three years of "natural disasters" that plagued China and caused a lot of starvation, hence, provoking party members to reconsider collectivised plots and the rejection of "bourgeois" science and agricultural methods (wtf?!).

They were stupid and human, and begin stupid and human, they were also greedy. They're original goal was to overthrow the monarchies and the useless feudal systems and establish a modern society -- and they hoped for at best a sociliast society.

And what the fuck is "revisionism", by the way? Is that more of that Hoxha crap where you all huddle around his statues saying, proverbally, "HIS NAME WAS ROBERT PAULSEN" and praying that the communist despot of Albania returns? Hahhahaha.

A realistic overthrow of capitalism and the establishment of communism would probably look something like the Paris Commune. Of course, I need to remind you that Paris in 1871 was about as developed as China is today. So, that tells who the differences between advanced capitalist countries and countries just entering the global market as "players" (China, USSR, etc...etc..)

It would be a classless, stateless society.

If you want to know more about the Paris commune, just read Mark's and Angle's The Civil War in France (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1871/civil-war-france/index.htm).

They determined that communism wouldn't come from any vanguard party but from the people themselves RISING up to smash the state apparatus of military forces and civil society as well as to smash class society all together, eliminating property owners through brute force and collectivising productive resources.

A succesful workers revolution would be thoroughly anarchist and communist at the same time. Where communists abolish the class apparatus of oppression and alienation, and the anarchists abolish the state apparatus of oppression and alienation. However, the paris commune was not succesful, but does serve as a model for how such an event might play out.

Die Neue Zeit
11th January 2008, 02:06
I have a hot-potato question for all this:

Since Bernstein was the originator of "revisionism," within what parameters did he define the "evolution" of capitalism to socialism (since I haven't read his works)?

ComradeRed awhile back called even Lenin a "revisionist" (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?t=59014) due to the idea that the mixed economy under the post-revolutionary "proletocracy" (and by "mixed" here I mean stamocap - under the control of soviets, workplace committees, and communal councils (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?t=58982) - forms the "commanding heights of the global economy, with both cooperative and petit-bourgeois businesses at the VERY bottom of the economic pecking order) could evolve into a socialist economy.

So, what is revisionism?