9/11

[w0lf]

What's your opinion of 9/11? I personally think It was some how associated with the American government. Ether the lack of response [War games were held practicing a similar situation days before] or lack of preparedness [European countries warned of an attack]

A lie told often enough becomes truth.
-Vladimir Lenin

Your opinion?

[Holden Caulfield]

personally i belive that the USA was directly involved either through it being an 'inside job' or by knowing of it imminence and not acting,

comparisons with the burning of the reichstag are obvious,

and when you consider that the steel in the sky scraper melting was the blame for the towers collapse and the massive temperatures needed: well over 1000'C,
in conjunction with the fact firemen were in the towers until its collapse, when the heats needed to melt steel are tens of times higher than humans can stand being even near,

i THINK, that i saw (on youtube for my sins) blasts coming from the tower further down away from the blasts from the planes and this COULD be internal sabotage?

the damage caused to the pentagon was supposidly massive and the plane crashed directly into it however the pentagon was suspiciously (overall) undamaged and got back to working conditions rather quickly according to what i have heard,

your opinions?

[w0lf]

I think the government planted bombs at the bottom of the buildings. Witnesses claimed hearing them and about two explosions were caught on film.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Lol more conspiracy theorists posing as leftists, who really are unable to accept that anybody could successfully attack America, so they invent bullshit conspiracy to show that really it was Americans who did 9/11.

Not only do you have no evidence for baseless claims of that kind, but its really not very important unless you are American, Afghani or Iraqi.

The rest of the world doesn't care.

[spartan]

Well lets put it this way.

9/11 was a convenient enough excuse for the US to justify their "war on terror".

So its not just a coincidence that this major attack, which was later used as justification for the US stealing other countries resources (Which just happen to be the cause of economic problems a few years later), happened when it did.

We all know why the US is in Iraq and it isnt because of weapons of mass destruction or the desire to get rid of a Dictator that the Americans themselves propped up.

[Holden Caulfield]

yeah w0lf this is my opinion as well from what i have seen when watching the footage in detail however i dont really have much more 'evidence'

on youtube thier is a docu thing (its a bit annoying and american but anyhoo) called loose change on 9/11 which a mate showed me when i was telling him why i thought 9.11 was avoidable which supported many of my assumptuions

(if you american and this vid is common knowledge in my lil town here it aint widely known, apologies for being dumb)


their are a few satirical cartoons of hitler and bush saying the'brough to justice' thing bush in front of the towers, hilter in front of the reichstag

[Holden Caulfield]

bloody_capitalist_sham you are a smart one,

A) im not american,
and
B) i already said that i had no evidence what so ever and is it forbidden for us to express our opinions?

if you dont care bloody_capitalist_sham dont posh saying some bullshit comment if your not being constructive

[Faux Real]

Who cares. It was just another causality of capitalist imperialism.

The world may never know unless the government archives are disclosed to the public (unless they've been burned and trashed already), which wont be another 30 years from now. That or if a successful workers revolution gains access to the documents sooner.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

You are even smarter.

You saw two planes hit the towers, yet you say the government put bombs there (even when you have no proof).

You saw Osama bin laden take responsibility.

You saw the footage of the hijackers at the airports and the passengers call their loved ones.

Osama has motive and capability, the US government has no motive and lacks the capability. Since you would need many people to carry out this kind of conspiracy, you wouldn't be able to ensure they would all keep it a secrete.

Loose change has been authoritatively debunked. Look at the BBC conspiracy files 9/11.

[Holden Caulfield]

i cant see documents of such gravity would be allowed to get out, it would be catastrophic (good for the people) US government,

they should have gone for the white house, who ever 'they' may be

[Holden Caulfield]

bloody_capitalist_sham im not saying it was the government directly,

i suggested they could have known and allowed it to happen, weighed the pros of having massive support for new imperialist wars etc higher than the cons of the loss of life, and blip to the economy

[peaccenicked]

The question is boring me. One does not have to be a conspiracy theorist to smell a rat. Two planes three buildings down. The last to leave the scene William Rodriquez came all the way to my town to tell us he felt an explosion coming up from below.

If that is not eye witness testimony what is. Can anyone tell me why his testimony was not taken by the 9/11 commission.


The amount of so called leftistists defending Bush and Cheney, instead of searching for the truth tells me that the State is flooding the internet with their own agents.
Keep an eye out for them they usually start by calling people names.

[Holden Caulfield]

opinions arent cconspiacy theories

this thread started asking for OPINIONS,

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2008 10:29 pm
The question is boring me. One does not have to be a conspiracy theorist to smell a rat. Two planes three buildings down. The last to leave the scene William Rodriquez came all the way to my town to tell us he felt an explosion coming up from below.

If that is not eye witness testimony what is. Can anyone tell me why his testimony was not taken by the 9/11 commission.


The amount of so called leftistists defending Bush and Cheney, instead of searching for the truth tells me that the State is flooding the internet with their own agents.
Keep an eye out for them they usually start by calling people names.
:o

Are you being serious or was that sarcasm?

Denying conspiracy is not defending "Bush and Cheney". I think they are so incompetent, they could not orchestrate this.

The amount of so called leftists who cant accept Saudi Muslim extremists brought the attacks is shocking.

These are the people who were born out of the Soviet/Afghan war, they know their shit.

[Holden Caulfield]

do you not agree that it isnt outside the relms of possibility that the massive intelligence organisations of the US knew of the impending attack?

[Forward Union]

Please. Read this. Please.


WHY THE 9/11 TRUTH CULT BOTHERS US

1) They act like a cult, and an aggressive one. The unannounced 9/11 Truth meeting at the October 2005 Anarchist Bookfair in London was marked by physical violence (jostling and digging critics in the ribs), concerted attempts to drown out critics and a nasty intimidatory atmosphere overall. A valuable insight--click for details. At the demonstration outside the (Manchester) Labour Party Conference in September 2006, David Shayler (see below) threw his considerable weight about, forcibly seizing the 'free' microphone from one demonstrator who tried to draw attention to NFB's critique of the movement. While veterans of sharp exchanges, even we have been taken aback by the volume and vitriolic nature of the abusive email exchanges coming our way from this cult.

2) Disgracefully, prominent positions within the UK & Ireland 9/11 Truth Movement are occupied by ex-MI5 officers David Shayler & Annie Machon. Schnews memorably terms Shayler the 9/11 cult 'Poster Boy'--with his ready media access, Shayler is a big domestic draw as an (undoubtedly) impressive public speaker. Machon is the grandly-titled 'Secretary, UK & Ireland 9/11 Truth Campaign', and as such a 'gatekeeper' at the heart of the campaign. NFB have long analysed this pair's ever-shifting stories, and repeated lies. It is a moot question just whose agenda they are working to--including the distinct possibility of alignment with one or other state fraction--see here on this. In Notes From the Borderland issue 7 Heidi Svenson & Paul Stott wrote a critical article on the pair's role in the 9/11 Campaign, also available on this current site--here. To date, the main cultist answer has been abuse, and claims there is nothing to respond to. However, Machon has another line--on the British 9/11 Truth Campaign forum 26/9/06 she attacked Schnews (8/9/06 issue 559) and others in the "anarchist fringe" claiming it was "anybody's guess" as to why we dislike Machon/Shayler, raising the possibility such critics "may be" part of an "MI5 disinformation campaign designed to cause division, just as the campaign is beginning to bite". It takes the biscuit, that lying red-baiting spooks, who have not told the truth about their own murky pasts, implyothers work for the secret state. Shayler made similar (unsubstantiated) claims about the Stop the War Coalition too (see NFB 7 article). Machon says, with unintentional irony "I would hope that our record speaks for itself". It does indeed. Some 9/11 activists are waking up--scroll down to the comments section here.

3) A growing distaste at bizarre conspiracy theories the 9/11 cult propagate, in particular anti-semitism. Claims by Shayler (New Statesman 11/9/06) that 9/11 was a 'Zionist' conspiracy are two-a-penny--yet we rarely hear the phrase 'Saudi conspiracy' with far more evidence for such. Lurking in the wings are the usual racist snake-oil salesmen (or in David Icke's case lizards) eager to blame the 'Jews'. The venomous & often anti-semitic reaction to criticism by Jewish journalist Jon Ronson in November 2006 exemplifies this. A relevant subtext is the sheer disbelief non-US citizens could have organised 9/11 without US government assistance--racism by another (subtle) name.
NOTES FROM THE BORDERLAND MAGAZINE SITE

NEW: RECENT 9/11 CULTWATCH PRESS RELEASE


THREE PAGES BELOW NOT LIVE YET

7/7 RESEARCH RESOURCES--A CRITICAL GUIDE

WHAT IS TO BE DONE NOW?

A COMEDY OF TERROR? 9/11 & 7/7 BELIEVERS IN THEIR OWN WORDS


4) Revulsion at the fact that increasingly (or intrinsically) ludicrous theories put about by the 9/11 cult & their home-grown shadow, the 7/7 cult, have the effect of letting spooks and others responsible off the hook in terms of accounting for their activities. In this category come Shayler's recent argument that no planes hit the World Trade Centre (or Pentagon) 9/11/01--instead it was holograms/ missiles/pre-placed explosives. Not only does this impute omniscient powers to the state in terms of carrying operations out effectively, it also implies they have the ability to keep the thousands involved quiet--amazing! The UK equivalent is the claim that the London 7/7/05 bombers didn't actually travel from Luton, didn't carry (or make) any bombs, and the 'suicide videos' they made weren't them anyway. None of this seems true to us, on current evidence. Amid the fog of 'hologram' hoaxes and other fruitloopery, secret state agencies and governments can thus evade hard questions--about why the Pakistani ISI head transferred $100,000 to 9/11 pilot Mohammed Atta, inadequate emergency procedures in New York & London, or the role of apparent MI6 asset Haroon Aswat in 7/7 for instance. NFB has a particular interest in retaining, and enlarging, the space for radical 'parapolitical' analysis of state malfeasance--and are concerned growing fruitcake influence chokes off the space for publicising actual real-life scandals which 9/11 cultists are indifferent to--the 1999 London nail-bombings and Tony Lecomber conspiracy to murder plot of recent--2006--provenance.

5) Fundamentally, the 9/11 & 7/7 cults have a pernicious effect on political discourse. By focussing primarily on a small group of decision-makers in a predominantly ahistorical way, they serve to trivialise, and disempower, the very popular masses that are ultimately the agents of radical social change--if that is to happen. As the excellent Schnews article says"World power is not a neat pyramidal structure with aliens, Jews or a cabal of men with a secret handshake at the top...There is one conspiracy that doesn't lurk in smoky rooms behind closed doors--its called global capitalism". Some US comrades have correctly described 9/11 conspiracy obsessives as examples of "arrested radicalisation". It is true many now drawn towards the 9/11 & 7/7 cults would in the past have become Leftists--and it is vital the Left/Greens do not ignore the genuine issues posed by 9/11--but as supplementary to political practice, not substituting for it. Ultimately, the 9/11 obsession of many people in the UK is not a manifestation of critical thought, but cultural and political subordination to the US--whereby events there are considered more important than equivalents in the UK or the rest of the world. A post-Cold War echo of Soviet Union worship. Earlier Al-Qaeda attacks, such as the 1998 Nairobi US Embassy bombing, get barely a look in, conspiracy-wise. Not just because most killed (213/4,600 injured) were non-white, but the carnage took place outside the imperial (US) heartland. So little to interest white middle-class Western conspiracy theorists. 7/7, however, functions as a useful add-on to the main event--9/11. Though added to the lexicon of 9/11 cult issues in the US, this is done in a patronising way--see the 'Bullhorn Bull-shitter' Alex Jones' film.


911 CULT WATCH (http://www.911cultwatch.org.uk/)

[RebelDog]

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2008 09:29 pm
The question is boring me. One does not have to be a conspiracy theorist to smell a rat. Two planes three buildings down. The last to leave the scene William Rodriquez came all the way to my town to tell us he felt an explosion coming up from below.

If that is not eye witness testimony what is. Can anyone tell me why his testimony was not taken by the 9/11 commission.


The amount of so called leftistists defending Bush and Cheney, instead of searching for the truth tells me that the State is flooding the internet with their own agents.
Keep an eye out for them they usually start by calling people names.
Be careful, you know too much, the lizard people will get you.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2008 10:58 pm
do you not agree that it isnt outside the relms of possibility that the massive intelligence organisations of the US knew of the impending attack?
I don't believe the intelligence services are in any way effective enough to stop random attacks like this.

What you see in hollywood films, and what happens in reality are very different.

[peaccenicked]

I am being a bit sacarstic but I do think some genuine leftists are infuenced by capitalist agents and opportunist socialists. 9/11 used to be an unpopular theory now it is mainstream, the idea it is cult is ridiculous. No doubt there are different types of 9/11ers but it is a mass movement now, which includes Castro and Chavez.


The cultwatch is an unwarranted smear campaign. It is a joke to say that 9/11 deactivates people, what they mean is that it puts people beyond their already small sphere of influence.

Incompetence as a theory is a fall back position for those who want a safe position but even that is becoming reduntant. Every day new information points to the main frame of the 'conspiracy' theory being correct.
I met ex MI5 agents David Shayler and Ann McMannon, they seem to be rational about the situation at hand, and were certain of it being an inside job being involved in black ops themselves , later Shayler came out with a theory with no planes. I suspect he has rejoined MI5 to help with the smear the so-called conspiracy theorists.

Like many families of the victims ;while I believe it was an inside job - I have gathered more evidence than I wish to recollect; I believe there should be a new investigation.
This debate is the only one worth having. Investigation? YES or NO!

[Tatarin]

What's your opinion of 9/11? I personally think It was some how associated with the American government.

The US government is involved, because it has been involved in the creation of Taliban-controlled Afghanistan, and back then they didn't do anything about it, even though the Taliban had one brutal regime.


comparisons with the burning of the reichstag are obvious,

While 9/11 surely did provide more reason for increased control, that system was already in place before 9/11.


in conjunction with the fact firemen were in the towers until its collapse, when the heats needed to melt steel are tens of times higher than humans can stand being even near,

Yet, it was reason enough for people to jump to their deaths.


i THINK, that i saw (on youtube for my sins) blasts coming from the tower further down away from the blasts from the planes and this COULD be internal sabotage?

Maybe you are talking about the puffs coming out from the sides of the towers? That's air blowing out as the floors collapse. Notice how they blow as the tower is coming down.


the damage caused to the pentagon was supposidly massive and the plane crashed directly into it however the pentagon was suspiciously (overall) undamaged and got back to working conditions rather quickly according to what i have heard,

But over 100 people still died. There is a part in Loose Change (as an example) that shows a tiny hole on the second floor. But the plane went in the first floor, and yes, there is a big hole there. Only, Loose Change chose not to show that. Why should I then trust them to tell me the truth?


Witnesses claimed hearing them and about two explosions were caught on film.

The witnesses probably did hear something, but not necessarily bombs. Many other things can explode besides bombs.


on youtube thier is a docu thing (its a bit annoying and american but anyhoo) called loose change on 9/11 which a mate showed me when i was telling him why i thought 9.11 was avoidable which supported many of my assumptuions

A "documentary" that ommits, distorts and manipulate facts.


Two planes three buildings down.

Why destroy Building 7?


The last to leave the scene William Rodriquez came all the way to my town to tell us he felt an explosion coming up from below.

I wouldn't be so quick to trust Rodriquez: http://911stories.googlepages.com/home


The amount of so called leftistists defending Bush and Cheney, instead of searching for the truth tells me that the State is flooding the internet with their own agents.

You mean only those who believe the 9/11 cult are true leftists?


I am being a bit sacarstic but I do think some genuine leftists are infuenced by capitalist agents and opportunist socialists.

What movements aren't?


No doubt there are different types of 9/11ers but it is a mass movement now, which includes Castro and Chavez.

And do you know why they think 9/11 was an inside job?

[Lenin II]

Before you guys accuse me of doing the ad hominem argument fallacy that conservatives and cappies themselves are so fond of, I will give you some links to sites that thoroughly debunk the science behind the conspiracy theories and Loose Change in general:

http://www.debunking911.com/
http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html

Now for the personal considerations. Most of the people who vehemently say that 9/11 was an inside job are far-right loonies like Alex “third world hoards” Jones:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc9Tgr_YwcY

And Mark “I’m a conservative, Michael” Dice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtArXrrJtTk

Who both say that we need to “secure our borders,” that V for Vendetta was “homosexual anti-Christian propaganda,” and both of which are paleoconservatives who endorse Ron Paul.


and when you consider that the steel in the sky scraper melting was the blame for the towers collapse and the massive temperatures needed: well over 1000'C,
in conjunction with the fact firemen were in the towers until its collapse, when the heats needed to melt steel are tens of times higher than humans can stand being even near,
Did you forget that melting steel was not the only cause for the collapse? Two planes also crashed into them at top speed.


I think the government planted bombs at the bottom of the buildings. Witnesses claimed hearing them and about two explosions were caught on film.
If the U.S. government was so clever and resourceful as to plant bombs in the buildings and hit the pentagon with a missile or whatever you believe actually happened, why weren’t they smart enough to plant weapons of mass destruction on Saddam Hussein in order to make the occupation of Iraq seem justified?



This debate is the only one worth having. Investigation? YES or NO!
I seriously doubt anyone, Truther or not, will say no. Of course the government is lying about 9/11, the only question is to what extent.

[peaccenicked]

Why do the 9/11 debunkers, just offer counter evidence, and not call for an inquiry. There is whole labyrinth to go through that was not covered by the 9/11 commission. Is every one who calls for a new inquiry a conspiracy theorist?
The debunkers are acting consciously or unconsciously as State agents.

The 9/11 commission was a travesty. Anybody who doubts that is a State agent full stop. http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2008/01/cia-obstructed-911-commission-probe.php

[FireFry]

The US government had a specific motive in perpetuating the attacks : FEAR.

They didn't do it for the super dark mythic intention of slaughtering American civilians, assuming that they DID do it, they did it at least more humanely than any terrorist would have done it; giving each of the people in the towers at least 1 hour to leave before secondary detonary charges go off.

Personal accounts of the events in the buildings from survivors gives us enough witnesses to the crime scene than anything else.

Of course, an event like this was YEARS in planning, and the only tie it had to Osama Bin Laden is that they tried to do something similar about 8 years earlier, and hence failed -- and were maybe even hired to do it so they would arrive as the prime suspects of such an attack later?

What I do know now is that Osama bin Laden is dead, and that almost the age of 70, living in a recently post-feudal society, he doesn't have much a chance of recieving modern healthcare benefits and even recieving basic services that ensure survival (especially in mountain ranges, wtf..).

The attacks were a means to ensure American's know who is boss and that any attempt to usurp the power that class and political privelege holds would be a "victory to the terrorists", and nothing less.

Assuming that the United States DID do it, this was their only real possible motive. :/

[An archist]

(Fuck, response I made in another thread seems to be lost)

Suppose the attacks on the twin towers were planned by US government instances (or the illuminati or whoever) and this is proved. What happens? The people who planned it all are put to trial, people are outraged at them and they get convicted for their crimes.
Average Joe and Jane say "Those republicans, how dare they?" and vote for democrats the next elections.
The system has reaffirmed itself, the law works, democracy works, hurray!
And people continue to suffer under capitalism.

[Holden Caulfield]

Tatarin

thank you alot for acutally adressing an issue of opinions with some sort of substance rather than the bullshit that most other 'senior members' (as you are now so clearly labelled) contributed.

the way of of ignorant, mis-judged, wrong (or otherwise) assumptions and ideas is having a reasonable counter debate and theroy, rather than short, condecending, answers, after all we are a 'workers movement' and therefore need such explanations

[Lenin II]

Why do the 9/11 debunkers, just offer counter evidence, and not call for an inquiry.

We do? All the time?


There is whole labyrinth to go through that was not covered by the 9/11 commission. Is every one who calls for a new inquiry a conspiracy theorist?
Of course not, but the fact is that most of those who call for new inquiries are not simply doing it based on a concern for material evidence or scientific investigation, but because they really do believe the government engineered 9/11, just like holocaust deniers may term themselves "holocaust revisionists," when in fact they believe there was no holocaust.

The debunkers are acting consciously or unconsciously as State agents. The 9/11 commission was a travesty. Anybody who doubts that is a State agent full stop.
Black and white thinking much? Explain to me in detail how it is exactly that one becomes a tool for the state by saying there is no hard evidence for the theory that they engineered the attacks? If you offer any evidence to me that has not been debunked or is not Alex Jones right-wing propaganda (often used to slander communists, by the way) I will certainly grant the theory equal time. And even then, it makes precious little difference to the Americans, the Afghans or the Iraqis.

As for myself, I cannot imagine what is so unbelievable about the whole event. The day of September 11th, 2001 was a day where my conservative-ruled homeland got a taste of its own medicine. An event like 9/11 is something that happens when a country, like the United States, blatantly abuses human rights, arms terrorists for their own ends, gives chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein, overthrows democratically elected regimes in Central and South America, gives military aid to Israel who then slaughters Palestinians, allows the genocide of people in East Timor, uses Muslim holy lands to attack Iraq to protect its oil interests, blatantly violates the U.N. and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, ignores international law, does anything and everything in its power to protect its economic well-being at the expense of the rest of the world’s population, and afterwards acts surprised when terrorists hijack planes and fly them into the World Trade Center. And it won’t end there. The children of my homeland are too stuck-up to realize is that an attack like 9/11 would have to happen every two months to keep up with the amount of deaths America’s foreign policy creates worldwide. Americans are too proud of themselves to realize that they are creating all of there own problems, and most of the worlds problems as well. Sensible citizens privately view 9/11 as the day when every narrow-minded, bigoted and simple-minded individual became enraged over a standard act of warfare, which was given a ridiculously high amount of coverage for something so insignificant in the world of war crimes. The fact that America has—and continues to—commit much more vile, bloodthirsty acts towards other nations was irrelevant to the occasion, and the proles seemed oblivious to the fact that there can be repercussions to a country’s despicable past actions.

[peaccenicked]

Why call for an inquiry? There must be grounds for this.
The real reason why it matters is that a new 9/11 or Tonkin incident could be a prelude to bombing Iran. There are indicators that it was an inside job, perhaps there is a shadow government. As to evidence thats for a court to decide. Alex Jones is a very small part of the equation. The point is the investigation was blocked. How deep it goes is still to come out in the washing.
http://cernigsnewshog.blogspot.com/2008/01/hotdogs-and-brinkmanship.html