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Pogue
1st January 2008, 15:04
For all the talk of world revolution, the qouting of Marx, Lenin, Mao, pray even Stalin, the theory discussed, the people and groups criticised, it strikes many as quite apparent the failings of the left in the 20th/21st century. While there have been victories of a type at home and abroad, these seem minor in comparison to the overall goal, and our current situation. At the start of the 20th century it could be said that class conciousness, awareness and motivation were at their peak. This progressed right up until about the 80's, where it declined rapdily to our state today, where the majority of people couldn't give two shits what Lenin's theory of revolution or what not was. There are many theories about this. There are the ones of indoctrination by capitalism to the people leading to mass acceptance of our state. Another is that the people simply don't want radical change. Some have said that extremism of any kind does not work and ultimately will lead to fail. They would argue the fall of the 'Communism' of the 20th century was evidence to this. One could also say our current state is also clear evidence to this. The majority of people in the UK will vote for Labour, Lib Dems, or Conservative. A rung below and you have the BNP, Respect, The Green Party.
We could, in our all-consuming self assured arogance say that we, as leftists, are enlightened, whereas the masses are not, but increasingly I am not sure of this. These days, in England, the state of living and education are much higher than they have been in the past. This has led to the increased abundance of the educated middle classes. Alot of my friends and relatives are educated people who understand what Anarchy, Communism and Socialism are, they just don't think its neccesary, acheivable, realistic. Or, more to the point, they don't believe this of the radical forms of these ideas. Although some people would remain, whether by their own fault or capitalism's, ignorant of what a different world there is, many are not ignorant, just objective. I do not know any repressive capitalists personally, the people I refer to are teachers, nurses, police officers, et cetera. Many of them are also 'reformist socialists' or 'social democrats'. Left leaning, but not calling for revolution. I have noted, obviously, on the left, a certain distaste to this position. But lets look at the facts. A comrade on the board quouted Aneurin Bevan's speech in another thread, about the Suez crisis, and said that Mr Bevan was not a revolutionary by Guevera's standards. Yet Mr. Bevan played a large role in bringing about the beautiful institution that is the British NHS. Yes, he was not a revolutionary, but the NHS, in the different sense of the word, was a very revolutionary, socialist institution, which greatly affected the lives of many. It is debatable whether such a profound change has been brough about elsewhere! One can refer to the heroic efforts of Comrade Che, Castro, and all our old friends from days passed in Russia, but I am sure many scholars and general observers would conclude such systems were no where near perfect. One could argue they were evil, oppressive, anti-working class, un-democratic, etc.
Revolution is a wonderful idea, and I personally desire for a (libertarian, anarcho-) communist state of things at some point. But living in the 21st century and coming from the background I do, I see the need for realism. People such as Tony Benn, Ken Livingstone, Mr Bevan, not revolutionaries, 'social democracts' have brought about the changes which affect the everyday lives of the working class. This could lead one to think, is reformism, social democracy, oppisition to outwardly uncomprimising far left wing politics lazy, blind, capitalist-enforced patheticness, incorrectness, or is it realism? I could certainly make the point that Mr Livingstone has changed the lives of and helped more people than most of the comrades on this board. This is no slant. I am not insulting, or generalising, doubtless many comrades help their local communities, do work which benefits people. But the progress of social democraty through Parliament, and democratic means, has led to more change recently, at least in the United Kingdom, than revolutionary ideas have. So why scoff at this? Who does the working class have more respect for, the anarchist in black who throws a brick at the police, or the politican who fights through parliament to pass a bill which directly benefits the lives of the people, as local MP's would do? Not to say that 'direct action' isn't beneficial, I wholeheartedly support peaceful (although perhaps slightly illegal) protest with a good message to put out to the world. But this can work alongside working within the current systems. Che himself said revolution is only justified when the state uses illegal methods to prevent peaceful change. On a large scale, in the UK, this has not happened yet. If we wanted to vote Communist Party of Great Britain (if we could find it amongst the legions of clones it has spawned over the years), or any other more radical party striving to bring about mass change, we could. But we don't. Is this not a clear message in itself? People like demoracy, reform, peaceful change which can be controlled and measured.
A question I put to comrades is that - what is the future for this movement? Why is this reformist social democracy so bad when it has clear victories, in comparsion too (and again I stress I am referring soely to the United Kingdom) to the complete lack of real change brought about by revolutionary politics?

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A point to add - could the efforts of public sector workers, nurses, police officers, fireman, etc, who'd work everday to prevent crime, save lifes, etc, be said to dwarf the efforts of 'revolutionaries'?

bloody_capitalist_sham
1st January 2008, 18:20
You might get more replies if you break up the text more, because that is incredibly off putting for us all to read.

Spaces and paragraphing it, makes it much better to read :D

Nakidana
15th April 2008, 07:51
One criticism that can be made of the "capitalism with restrictions" you speak off, is that it has continually engaged in imperialism leading to the deaths of millions of people.

Also, how democratic is democracy in capitalism? We know money and the media plays a huge factor and also politics seems to be more about personalities than the political policies of the different parties. Is this the way people want the country to be run?

That said, a lot of people in Western countries do have it good. No doubt about it. Only time will tell if that continues with upcoming conflicts.

piet11111
19th April 2008, 01:34
and yet we had that anomalous year 1968 where the capitalist economy was still growing and people in general had it good.

real working class gains came from the people in the streets like the 8 hour workday those where not from parliament handed down to us.

gilhyle
20th April 2008, 16:03
Take the long view: Marx and Engels set off a process of the unification of the spontaneous political process within the working class and socialists sects. By their own example, they tied socialism to the working class and, particularly, as trade union organisation grew in Europe, their initiative allowed mass class parties to grow - thus proving the efficacy of the formula of uniting the working class and socialists.

Then came WW1. IT was a contradictory impulse, polarising the working class movement - the movement never recovered its unity. But part of the consequence of that polarisation was a large revolutionary movement, uniting (parts of the) working class and the more radical socialists.

That movement was a 'victory or death' throw of the dice. It shone and burnt out. By the late 20th century, that movement was gone. The polarised elements of Marx's great achievement had worked out their dynamic and the working class and socialism were now divorced.

This is the current situation. Socialist sects exist in splendid isolation from the working class adorned with the paraphenalia of yesteryear.

This defeat meant that the opportunity Marx and Engels saw of permanent revolution was lost - the bourgeoisie got over the weakness of their formative years and matured into a rapacious imperialism, which is now spreading across the globe, profit rates boosted by the low levels of class struggle, their own working classes partially bought off by the expansion of labour aristocratic layers and social welfare systems which stabilise their home bases.

But the expansion of capitalism brings with it a repeat of the very processes that Marx and Engels relied on in their day. (Read Paul Mason's Live Working or Die Fighting for an easy-to-read book which draws out the parrallels) nd therefore places once again on the agenda the whole issue of how a new alliance of the working class and the socialists is to be built.

The future of the movement lies in change, self-transformation and re-arming for a new period of history and we can begin to see how to re-arm by looking to the past (adjusted for change)

Die Neue Zeit
20th April 2008, 17:50
gilhyle, you're the only comrade on this board who knows of the merger formula (the central theme of my work-in-progress) but hasn't commented on the second link in my sig. :(

black magick hustla
20th April 2008, 20:49
Yeah and most people live like shit, experience violence as an everyday matter, and a lot of the "gains" in the first world are being rolled back and they are not sustainable (either because capital is economically unsustainable, or because an enviromental catastrophe is looming over our heads)

the prognostic doesn't seems as fun-loving as you think tex.

Unicorn
20th April 2008, 20:54
A question I put to comrades is that - what is the future for this movement?
There are loads of Marxist scholars at universities all over the world. Mankind can't leave Marxism behind because it is just the best way of explaining history and economy. Truth can't be ignored.

piet11111
24th April 2008, 05:16
the future for the revolutionary left is good as the left is finally getting over the fall of the USSR and the masses in europe are looking for political organisations that represent them and protect them from the liberal attacks.

the reformists failure in Italy actually has the bourgeois worried because the "left" disappeared in parliament after their alliance with the bourgeois in the previous government and now they fear the masses will take their anger to the streets when they are pushed back again.