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Pogue
31st December 2007, 14:29
I have worked with the police. I have done police work, such as safer neighbourhoods work in the UK. I support the Metropolitan Police. Yet my dream is to see an anarcho-communist socciety. Allow me to explain.
Alot of my friends are either in the police, or like most of us, have had some experience of the police. My mother is a nurse, and she sees the police helping when drunk, or just generaly violent people get violent to nurses in her A&E ward. She says that every officer there is very pleasant, they treat the people they deal with well, with respect, and diffuse many a situation peaceuflly and effectively. They also maintain friendly relationships with the workers on the ward. All of the police officers I know have been pleasant and polite. When asked what their reasons for joinging the Met, they reply to me that they feel obliged to serve their community. And this makes sense. The pay, for public sector, is good, yes, but it's not fantastic. So this could lead us to believe that a large amount of a persons motivation to become a PC is their desire to serve their community. This is a large motivation of my own when I do volunteer work with the police (along with learning certain skills, like first aid, and learning more about the law and police proceedure). Why is this bad? "Because the police protect property and the state."
The average PC's work will involve patrolling their particular district of their borough. They will note down any apparent criminal damage to property, and try to diffuse any situations (such as disputes in the streets, like violent drunk people on the streets of nearly every town in England every saturday night). Most of the PC's and PCSO's I know also do voluntary safer neighbourhoods work on weekends for about 4-8 hours wiht groups of young (teenage) volunteers.
Thus far, no opression of the working class, ethnic minorities etc.
On demonstrations I go on, the police make sure there is no violence or criminal damage. There is nothing me or my friends and fmaily would want to do on a Save The NHS or Stop The War demonstration that we cannot do because the police stop us. In fact, on most demonstrations, I hardly notice the police are there.
Everytime one of my friends has been robbed, the police have dealt with it brilliantly.
When my own sister was attacked by a gang of guys down our street, it was dealt with by two lovely young female PC's.
When I go to football matches, I have never seen police violence. I have seen the police joking with the supporters, friendly banter.
Recently I was told by my mother of how a mentally unwell patient, I belive he either escaped her A&E ward or was with paramedics in an ambulance, with a large knife (it may of been a machete) that he had been concealing. This was around 8 ish in the morning on a weekday. Many children were going to school, and this mentally unwell, weapon wielding man was shouting and screaming and running around the high street where there were many children waiting for buses, walking to school etc. Police were called. About 8 or so police officers formed a circle around the man and, as it has been reported by eye witnesses, the local newspaper and people I know present at the time, they tried to tlak him down. No weapons. No batons. No sprays. The man lunged at the nearest PC, a female officer who is a friend of my mothers, and stabbed at her with the knife/machete. The knife made contact under the officers body armour, but was deflected by the metal buckle of her belt. The officers, seeing there not to be no choice, moved in and, yes, using force, and again, as said by those who saw it, reasonable force, subdued and contained this man. I believe he was then taken to hospital for medical treatment.
I have asked so many people (all, accoriding to msot definitions, working class) of what they think of the Met Police, their neccesity, their role, etc, including friends who are socialists, communists, anarchists, people of all ethnic minorities. The only criticism I have had of the Met Police, or indeed police in the UK in general, is from an anarchist friend, who also respects and to some extent admires the role of the police in capitalist society, and his only criticism was to do with the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes. I agree that case was terrible and saddening, and should not ever happen again, and that the officers should, after thorough investigation taking into account all factors involved, be held responsible to the full degree for their actions. But this was one case. And yes there may be more. But in an insituation as big as the police there are mistakes. They are not justifiable, but they are to be expected, and the mistakes of some idiots, bad officers, should not represent the whole force. If one racist, right wing twat policeman uses excessive force on a protestor or a person from a different ethnic background, then he is scum, but that dosn't warrant for a full scale riot or cries of "Fuck the police".
This left wing love of hating the police is askin to Nazi Germany's persecution of Jewish people. "All Jews bring about the downfall of Germany! Fuck Jews!"
"All police are evil right wing opressors! Fuck the police!"
There are parralells. Ask a member of the BNP why he hates asian people, and he might site a crime commited by an asian person or some bad trait or an individual or group of asian people. But this does not make all asian people bad. It is so with the police. If we hate all police for the problems and mistakes of some, surely we should hate the NHS because the managers fuck around with it at the expense of our service and right to free healthcare? The laws I dont disagree with which are enforced by the police, such as the deportation laws, many raids, dispersing protests etc., are wrong, but laws are not made by PC's. PC's have to comprimise what they know to be right sometimes because they can't choose what laws to enforce or what ones not too, otherwise fascist officers could choose to ignore race hate crimes. The people who make the laws are the opressors, the bourgeoisie.
An anarchist working for the police, or at least respecting the police, is no hypocrite or opressor, if they are doing it to protec the fundamental freedoms of the working class, such as the freedom for me and my friends to go out without fear of assault, rape or robbery. I see nothing in the job of an average PC which contradicts anarchist convictions. Surely if an anarchist saw someone fighting someone else, they would try to detain the person trying to take away other peoples right to live free of violence?
Yes, there are problems. The Met is not perfect. Their is ranking, their bureaucracy, hell, theres corruption. High up in the police there you might find the guardogs of the state, right wing bastards seeking to opress. The same way high up in all institutions you'll find bad people. Even the NHS, Britains holy grail of succesful socialism in action. And yes, high up, they're not issuing orders for Blair and Brown to be arrested as the war criminals they are. But this does not represent the service as a whole. The motivations of an individual officer are not the same as what your opinions of the purpose of the police are. Fuck bad, oppressive laws, fuck state and capitalist oppresion, but why "fuck the police?".
Why hate people who work against phaedophiles, rapists, murders, organised criminals, all things which are as much the enemy of the proletariat as the state and capitalism are. No one will care about state and capitalist oppresion if they are getting assaulted, threatened and robbed every night.
I am an anarchist first. And this compels me to want to serve and protect my fellow humans from those with evil intentions. But I am also one who respects the efforts of my fellow opressed to try to help their fellow people. I urge you to open your eyes to who and why you are hating.
And also remember, the police have a section, a large section, who deal with corporate fraud. Thats capitalists cheating at capitlaism, I know, but it's still making sure even the bourgeoisie obey the rules.
Comrades, I urge you to stop the mindless destructive hatred of your fellow worker, and direct your anger at the people who deserve it, as always, the bosses, and the state.

Pogue
31st December 2007, 14:40
+++++Additonal notes/points+++++++

I speako nly for the police in the UK, and more specificaly the Metropolitan Police, an insituation into which I have done alot of research and have alot of direct first hand experience. I cannot speak for comrades and their experiences of their police abroad.
I believe the Met is reprsentative of the standards of policing for the whole of the UK, form what I've seen and heard.

Also, violence against the police and property is not justigied "because capitalism is oppressive". The working class, the majority of this country, want the police force, want their current government and state of affairs. They're not all stupid, they live in a democracy, they can vote.

All they see when an black bloc smashes windows and fights police are aggressive and scary extremists fufilling their own desires. A poor worker clears up the damage done during violent demonstrations, and it takes away the peoples freedom to exist without fear of harm or violence.

Do not interpret me as pro-nationalist, capitalist, etc. As I stated at the beginning, my ideal is anarchism. I give talks on anarchism, and particpate regularly in groups who discuss topics to do with our current struggle.

Marsella
31st December 2007, 15:05
I'll try and give a broad definition of why we oppose the modern police force. :)

Welcome here anyway.


Alot of my friends are either in the police, or like most of us, have had some experience of the police. My mother is a nurse, and she sees the police helping when drunk, or just generaly violent people get violent to nurses in her A&E ward. She says that every officer there is very pleasant, they treat the people they deal with well, with respect, and diffuse many a situation peaceuflly and effectively. They also maintain friendly relationships with the workers on the ward. All of the police officers I know have been pleasant and polite.

Yes, very lovely and heart warming.

But Communists don't oppose capitalists because they are 'bad men' or support the proletariat class because they are 'nice guys.'

Whether a police officer is a 'good guy' is irrelevant.

In fact, it is entirely irrelevant to the job of a police officer.

'We don't make laws we just enforce them' is the catch cry of any police officer.

They will follow those laws no matter what.

And that is always a justification for police officers - 'I was just following orders, I was just doing my job, I was obeying the law.' All those excuses have legislative backing.

So, police officers are almost like robots - following whatever laws have been passed and have immunity by the state because they are enforcing those laws.

Its not that communists disapprove of justice - crime will be dealt with in communist societies too - its just that the capitalist state will use all tools at its disposal to deal with the threat of a worker's revolution.

That includes the police.


Thus far, no opression of the working class, ethnic minorities etc.

Wrong.

The police force is involved with all sorts of immigration issues which are totally against the working class and ethnic minorities.

And please, the statistics where I live of the amount of white deaths in custody versus the amount of black deaths in custody speaks for itself.

Oh, and I&#39;m sure the various police officers in Iraq have never abused their position of authority and tortured others based on their religion. <_<


On demonstrations I go on, the police make sure there is no violence or criminal damage. There is nothing me or my friends and fmaily would want to do on a Save The NHS or Stop The War demonstration that we cannot do because the police stop us. In fact, on most demonstrations, I hardly notice the police are there.

Sure.

But then again, a proletarian revolution is hardly a peaceful thing is it?

Do you think that the police force won&#39;t be utilized to attack those workers?


This left wing love of hating the police is askin to Nazi Germany&#39;s persecution of Jewish people. "All Jews bring about the downfall of Germany&#33; Fuck Jews&#33;"
"All police are evil right wing opressors&#33; Fuck the police&#33;"

No. Left wingers oppose the police because of their social role.

Nazis oppose Jews because of their race.

A bit of a difference right?


It is so with the police. If we hate all police for the problems and mistakes of some, surely we should hate the NHS because the managers fuck around with it at the expense of our service and right to free healthcare? The laws I dont disagree with which are enforced by the police, such as the deportation laws, many raids, dispersing protests etc., are wrong, but laws are not made by PC&#39;s. PC&#39;s have to comprimise what they know to be right sometimes because they can&#39;t choose what laws to enforce or what ones not too, otherwise fascist officers could choose to ignore race hate crimes. The people who make the laws are the opressors, the bourgeoisie.

I don&#39;t think most of us here blame the police for all of societies ills.

Far from it.

But why should we excuse police officers from enforcing those rules?

Are they forced to do so?

I thought one entered the police force voluntarily, and hence voluntarily support those laws?

Sure, capitalism requires you to have a job. But it does not choose that job for you.


Comrades, I urge you to stop the mindless destructive hatred of your fellow worker, and direct your anger at the people who deserve it, as always, the bosses, and the state.

They are not workers.

They are part of the state.

A bit of a more comprehensive look here. (http://rs2k.revleft.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1082819752&archive=&start_from=&ucat=&)

Pogue
31st December 2007, 15:46
It&#39;s not irrelevant what the police officers underlying nature is, because their nature, whether or not their a nice guy, will affect how they act on the job.
Immigration is a specific part of the police, I am referring to specifically PC&#39;s, basically bobbies on the beat, so people patrolling, say, Kingston noting vandalism, crime etc.
On the note of a revolution I agree come revolution the police can no logner be supported unless like in Russia with the military, the rank and file come over to the side of the revolutionaries.
And again obviously I am against the beating and deaths and shady buisness going on in jails, but as this is not written in law "beat black people in custody" and as with all faults with people in jobs it does not mean everyone does it, I cannot take this as an argument against the police just against specific officers.
Not all police bahve like robots, there are cases where compassion or right intention could come into it. I have, in the majority met good natured officers who don&#39;t see themselves as the sheriff of nottingham who are not like robots, but have been very human and nice people. Some degree of discpline and lack of comprimise is however neccesary when faced with rape, murder etc.
You mention Iraq - please note I am specificaly referring to UK police, mainly the Met.
I know there is a difference between race hate and hate on grounds of the fact they apparently appress the workers, but my parralell was that you assume that the faults of some members of a specific group are representative of the whole group, when I am sure you&#39;ll agree it is rarely ever so.
Again on the note of the choice of rule enforcement. I am a Volunteer Police Cadet, not a serving PC, so my role in terms of enforcing and oppression is null, I merely support in community things, as well as doing the exercises in a unit.
I feel alot of people don&#39;t know what some of the laws they have to enfroce are when they first decide they want to be a PC (obviously they find out at a later date), but moreover their desire to preserve peoples freedom to avoid assault and the like spurs them into taking a job where they serve the public directly.
And also, effectively then, members of the NHS are not workers, according to you at least, because the state dictates how they work?
Thank you for your comprehensive and clear reply, and for welcoming me to the forum. Much hope for further debate :)

Oh and I have one specific question I have been dealing with. As a Volunteer Police Cadet I do not have any powers whatsoever, I merely help with passive peaceful events such as the London Marathon, and I do things like parade and the like. Would you say this in any wya contradicts belief in a classless society without authority?
I know counter arguments would be I am in a ranking system therefore someone is seen as superior, but it is so with all elements of capitalist society - I am above no one, so I opress no one. My work would constitute delivering &#39;stay safe&#39; leaflets - no arresting, or the like. What do you think? I know it may seem an odd combo - anarchist and then this, but I have reasons.

Lenin II
11th January 2008, 05:19
Your post seems to pre-suppose that the left hate police because of mere personal considerations. This is ludicrous. Martov is right. By definition, revolutionaries must oppose police because they are the armed forces of the state, the same way that by definition police must arrest and shoot revolutionaries because they seek to destroy the state.


This left wing love of hating the police is askin to Nazi Germany's persecution of Jewish people. "All Jews bring about the downfall of Germany! Fuck Jews!"
"All police are evil right wing opressors! Fuck the police!"

And the award for most overused comparison in the universe goes toooo….okay that was a cheap shot, but Jesus Christ, really. “This wearing of seat belts is just like what the Nazis did to the Jews when they wore seat belts….on their way to the CONCENTRATION CAMP!” You have to do better than that.


There are parralells. Ask a member of the BNP why he hates asian people, and he might site a crime commited by an asian person or some bad trait or an individual or group of asian people. But this does not make all asian people bad. It is so with the police.

That is an extremely weak connection. Asian people are born Asian. There is nothing they can do about it since it is genetic. Police CHOOSE to be police. In addition, the hypothetical crimes committed by the Asian person were not committed because he was Asian, but a cop who exercises state authority to commit murder against a comrade did so because he was a cop.


The laws I dont disagree with which are enforced by the police, such as the deportation laws, many raids, dispersing protests etc., are wrong, but laws are not made by PC's. PC's have to comprimise what they know to be right sometimes because they can't choose what laws to enforce or what ones not too, otherwise fascist officers could choose to ignore race hate crimes. The people who make the laws are the opressors, the bourgeoisie.

You don’t disagree with deportation laws? I hope that’s a typo, or else you are already anti-working class. You are right, police do not make the laws themselves. But who chooses to enforce those laws already made by the bourgeoisie? Were police drafted? Were they forced to raise their hands against revolutionary causes? No. They chose of their own free will to side with the state against the people and to look after the interests of the state above all others, including the working class.


Why hate people who work against phaedophiles, rapists, murders, organised criminals, all things which are as much the enemy of the proletariat as the state and capitalism are. No one will care about state and capitalist oppresion if they are getting assaulted, threatened and robbed every night.

And what system lays the groundwork for inequality, racism, gentrification, stratification, robbery, psychological devastation, poverty and criminality in general? Capitalism, of course—the same system which cops have chosen to defend with their lives.


Also, violence against the police and property is not justigied "because capitalism is oppressive". The working class, the majority of this country, want the police force, want their current government and state of affairs. They're not all stupid, they live in a democracy, they can vote.

They can vote in rigged bourgeoisie elections that mean nothing and change nothing. As an anarchist you should know that better than anyone. There is no such thing as democracy. There is only dictatorship of the proletariat and dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.