Bolcheviks charge sheet - by Libertarians

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

Could someone make a charge sheet on this thread of Lenin and Trotsky's reactionary actions, such as Ukraine, Kranstdat etc.

Sorry to be so secterian, but I am rather confused...by the other threads on the topic, on what they actally did to crush workers power.

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by Y Chwildro Comiwnyddol [email protected] 29, 2007 03:55 pm
Could someone make a charge sheet on this thread of Lenin and Trotsky's reactionary actions, such as Ukraine, Kranstdat etc.
Kronstadt was a bourgeosie attempt at a military coup and dictatorship in Russia. Crushing it wasn't crushing workers' power.

Makhno's Ukraine operations were somewhat scheduled as Wrangel started offensives against revolutionary troops. I guess Makhno did this to forcibly extract ceasefires from Lenin, but it demonstrates his anti-working class nature more than it does any percieved strategic prowess.

Just trying to counter capitalist/reactionary propaganda, that's all.

[Sky]

At the Kronshtadt naval base, sailors and soldiers betrayed the Russian Soviet Republic and objectively acted as servents of imperialism. They resorted to brutal force and arrested many communists. The actions of the mutineers were by no means non-violent. In this context, the Republic had no choice but to use force out of self-defense. In all, some 4000 workers and peasants of the Red Army were killed by the brutal mutineers.

Regarding Makhno's kulak bands, Makhno had repeatedly double-crossed soviet power and demonstrated to be an irreconcilable enemy of working people. There was no choice but to crush his bands. Makhno demonstrated to have been a servent of imperialism when along with White Guard thugs living in nations with enemy regimes he regularly spewed hate-filled venom against the Soviet Republic.

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

The sailors where mainly anarchists, 95% had helped in the October revolution. By standing in solidarity with the St Petersberg workers in seeking the restoration of workers councils. Even Lenin was unhappy about the masssacre of the sailors. OK, one or two of their demand could be deemed "petit-bourguosie" (to use you favuorite insult).

Crum, when you say the sailors were bourguoise, then you say the Oct. revolutio too was bourguosie. The sailors wanted to establish workers democracy, not bolshevik state power...who looks like the dictators to you?

[Bilan]

Please shut the fuck up about Krondstat.
The reasoning for what the Bolsheviks did is neither as flimsy as the anarchists portray it, or as justified as the Trotskyists and Leninists portray it.
Krondstat was an important Naval base, and if seized by a counter-revolutionary group, could provide access for imperialist armies to the USSR. That is true.
The barbaric nature of the Red Army in this case, which is something so easily - and pathetically - over looked by pseudo-Bolsheviks now-days, is something that need not be called into question; it's a fact.
It was an over reaction by the Bolsheviks, and a failure to self asses the vanguard - of which the Rebels were calling into question, and defying the rule of - or listen to the critiques of working class folk, or proletarians.

There is also evidence suggesting that the leaders of the Krondstat uprising had backing from Capitalist nation states (etc.). That may prove true, also. But the fact is, despite the (possible) nature of the leadership, the will of the Krondstat sailors will still revolutionary.
Now please, back on topic.

[Bilan]

Kronstadt was a bourgeosie attempt at a military coup and dictatorship in Russia. Crushing it wasn't crushing workers' power.


If a centralized bureaucracy crushes a soviet: that is crushing Workers power. But I'm not arguing this silly shit with you.


Makhno's Ukraine operations were somewhat scheduled as Wrangel started offensives against revolutionary troops. I guess Makhno did this to forcibly extract ceasefires from Lenin, but it demonstrates his anti-working class nature more than it does any percieved strategic prowess.

No, it doesn't.
It becomes so painfully evident that your sources for this are heavily biased against Mahkno, and frankly, inaccurate.



Just trying to counter capitalist/reactionary propaganda, that's all.

What a boring cliche.
Not everything that doesn't shine a golden light on the USSR is "capitalist (or) reactionary propaganda". Revolutionary leftists, too, criticize (heavily) the USSR.

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

Its hard...on this site....to find an un-biased view on the event.





Could you , Proper Tea, write a few things on Bolshevisms oppresive nature.
Sorry to ssem secterian, but I would like to read on the subject, and i feel we need to move on from Lenin and Bolshevism

[Sky]

The Communist point of view of Kronstadt:
http://www.cultinfo.ru/fulltext/1/001/008/066/575.htm

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 10:28 pm
The Communist point of view of Kronstadt:
http://www.cultinfo.ru/fulltext/1/001/008/066/575.htm
Do you have that in English?