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Zurdito
28th December 2007, 21:50
I won't credit it because the person who wrote it did so off-record. still, it's good.

Third Campism

Proponents of Third Campism argue that in imperialist war socialists should support neither the imperialist side (first camp) nor the resistance to it led by bourgeois forces in the semi colonial country (the second camp - although the AWL reject the Leninist analysis of imperialist powers and semi colonial countries as a simple explanation this will do). Instead of taking these two sides the Third Campists support the "Third Camp" of the working class movement. Their slogans are usually along the lines of "No to war, no to Saddam/the theocracy etc".

In this they sound very radical and very socialist but their argument is actually one which damages the international working class movement and inevitably ends up with them consciously or unconsciously siding with imperialism.

Imperialism

In order to understand why it is first necessary to explain what imperialism and imperialist war are.

The Marxist understanding of imperialism is that it is a transitional stage. "Free trade" gives way to the power of monopolies, banks and cartels and the dominance of the export of goods in earlier capitalism gives way to the dominance of the export of capital i.e. instead of capitalism opening up parts of the world as new markets for its goods, it opens them up in order to exploit their workers at a greater rate than it does the workers in its own country.

It is a transitional phase of capitalism because it is a phase in which all the material prerequisites for the establishment of socialism have been met and production is increasingly socialised whilst the ownership of the means of production increasingly falls into fewer and fewer hands. Imperialism is the phase in capitalism where the capitalist class no longer plays a progressive role but holds back the development of the means of production and humanity; it is the epoch of capitalism in decline.

Imperialism has opened up the world's markets and as a result there is a struggle amongst imperialist powers to divide and re-divide the world in order to secure profits. The war on Iraq as a war for oil and control of the Middle East is testament to this as are the imperialists' attempts to stop the nationalisation of companies in Latin America and to marketise the public sector through neoliberal reforms in Europe.

So then, as we can all agree this means that the defeat of the imperialists in their wars has two positive consequences: firstly, it enables the people of a country to not have their resources and their labour super-exploited by imperialist countries and their companies and opens up the question of how the society will be run; secondly, and of greater consequence, as imperialism is a world system the defeat of imperialism in one of its wars gives confidence to those resisting imperialism in the whole world and shows that imperialist hegemony can be challenged and beaten.

Resistance and its class dynamics

A problem can arrive for socialists in dealing with this though because whilst the defeat of imperialism is progressive both nationally and internationally the resistance to imperialism is often led by forces hostile to the working class movement. No sensible person would claim that the Taleban, Moqtadr Al-Sadr or the ruling regime in Iran are friends of the working class. Yet in both Iraq and Afghanistan forces with a political-Islamist programme are not only in the forefront of the fight against US/UK imperialism but are beating it. Similarly if and when the imperialists decide to attack Iran the first line of defence in Iran will be the military who are under the command of the Iranian ruling class.

The argument of the Third Campists – to support neither side and instead focus on the building up of an independent working class movement – sounds nice but completely dodges the question faced on the ground in countries under imperialist occupation: how to resist. Socialist politics which can’t deal with an imperialist war is worthless.

The political independence of the working class does not mean its abstention from the national struggles. On the contrary revolutionaries, the most conscious part of the working class, must be "tribunes of the people" not ignoring the biggest problems faced by society but by coming to the forefront of the most important struggles it faces and showing that it is only through the socialist revolution that offers a solution through action as well as words. In the context of the anti imperialist struggle this means that the task of revolutionaries is to engage in the fight and come to its leadership.

Doing this means that the working class must make a united front with sections of the national bourgeoisie in this struggle. This doesn't mean that the working class is dropping its political independence but that it sees that imperialist occupation affects all classes in an occupied society. Abstaining from this national struggle or adopting a "shoot both ways" position would be suicidal for the working class. Cutting it off from the biggest question facing society by for example taking the perspective that the biggest question in Iraq is trade union struggles rather than the occupation not only limits the ability of working class militants to agitate amongst the working class (and the urban poor, petty-bourgeoisie etc) but also means that after the defeat of imperialism having not led the struggle it will be in a worse position to take power in society.

From resistance to revolution

Undoubtedly the abstention of the working class from the struggle against imperialist occupation damages the ability of that struggle to win excluding not only numbers of people who could be participating in armed resistance but also a class of people who through their economic position can cripple the workings of a puppet regime. Third Campists would of course argue that the working class not participating in resistance to imperialism led by theocratic and bourgeois forces is not a problem as workers do not share the same aims as these forces.

However the abstention of the working class from the struggle against imperialism also weakens the working class in its struggle for emancipation. It would be undialectical and plain wrong to conclude that if the working class fights against imperialist occupation alongside those with bourgeois programs (and sometimes not even that) means that the working class are fighting for the victory and the implementation of these programs.

This is because of the inevitable contradictions within the national bourgeoisie of a country, sections of which will be bribed by the imperialist powers and sections of which will shy away from a struggle against imperialism in which the working class involve themselves heavily in and seek to take the leadership of. In participating in the resistance to imperialism the working class not only poses the question of how society should be run in places where the imperialists are defeated (where it can fight for workers control, soviets etc) but also poses a broader threat to capitalism, as the 1922 congress of the Communist International put it: "the objective tasks of the colonial revolution go beyond the bounds of bourgeois democracy because a decisive victory for this revolution is incompatible with the rule of world imperialism” i.e. there is no space outside imperialism and only the overthrow of capitalism worldwide can secure against it.

This stance does not hinder the political independence of the working class as the Third Campists might claim, it enriches it. Again, the 1922 congress of the Communist International is clear on this: “The refusal of Communists in the colonies to take part in the fight against imperialist tyranny, on the pretext of their supposed ‘defence’ of independent class interests, is the worst kind of opportunism and can only discredit the proletarian revolution”

There is no Third Camp

As we've seen the refusal of the working class to take the lead in the struggle against imperialism, whatever its current leadership might be weakens both the struggle to overthrow the imperialist occupation of a country and the capitalist system. You'd be forgiven for wondering what the point of such a theory is.

In the final analysis the Third Campist position only serves to defend imperialism. Their arguments on the question would make it seem as if the chief question in Iraq is that of the trade union occupation in Iraq rather than the imperialist occupation. Worse still they have argued that the occupation of Iraq has opened up a "breathing space" for the working class to organise in, in other words they think that imperialism has played a progressive role in Iraq. The utter weakness of their stance on imperialism can be further seen in the fact that they are having a faction fight over whether to call for the immediate withdrawal of British troops from Iraq, a position they currently don't have - you'd expect this from the Liberal Democrats but from an organisation claiming to be socialist?!?

The defeat of the USA in Vietnam was undoubtedly a progressive thing for the world working class movement and all those struggling against imperialism worldwide. The mere mention of the word still decades later stings the US's ruling class. Yet the resistance in Vietnam was led by Stalinists who killed revolutionaries and were certainly no friends of the working class. Would any right-minded socialist say that the victory over America in Vietnam was a bad thing because the leadership had reactionary politics? No. What is the difference between the resistance and the resistance in Iraq, Afghanistan and the one that will emerge in Iran? The truth is that the Third Campists are pandering to the racism involved in the war on terrorism, they cannot abide the idea that the working class should support a Muslim-led resistance.

You can see that Third Campism provides a socialist sounding echo of the imperialists on the front cover of November 1st's Weekly Worker which has bullet points stating that "Iran is developing nuclear weapons", "Iran sponsor[s] 'terrorism'", "Iran is not a peace-loving state", "Iran is an anti-Semitic state” and “Iran is an undemocratic and repressive country”. Are these really the key arguments that communists should be putting forward to the movement and the working class? Weekly Worker has gone from having contents mirroring Heat magazine to front pages mirroring the Sun.

The fight against imperialism in Britain and in Iran

The regime in Iran, despite inevitable disagreements, will resist imperialist attack in whatever form it comes. In a situation where Iran is under attack from the imperialists socialists should argue for the victory of Iran clearly and unapologetically breaking with those who think that there is any justification of imperialist war on the grounds that the imperialist countries have more democratic rights than Iran and can provide a space for progress in Iran.

This does not mean being uncritical of the regime but, as Karl Liebnecht said for the working class of imperialist countries at war "the main enemy is at home". The main struggle in Iran will be against imperialism any attempt to side-step that in the style of Weekly Worker can only serve the imperialists.

The situation will of course be different for workers in Iran. The dynamics of the struggle against imperialism will mean that inevitably it will come into conflict with sections the regime, who fear socialist revolution even more than they fear imperialist occupation. Nevertheless the struggle against imperialist occupation will be the main issue and it is only by the working class showing that in such a situation it is first and foremost an opponent of imperialism, that it is the hardest fighter against it and that it can change society to one without imperialist domination that it can weaken those opposed to its participation in an anti imperialist united front, break the hold of the bourgeois leadership of the resistance and provide a basis for the establishment of a socialist society.

A victory against imperialist occupation led by any force would be a progressive thing. To advocate a politics which not only diminishes the chances of that but also hands over the leadership of that struggle to bourgeois forces, as the Third Campists do, isn't a position worthy of genuine socialists and internationalists.

Matty_UK
29th December 2007, 00:00
While fighting against imperialist occupations is admirable, I think you just have to accept that capitalism needs to expand and work on a global scale, and the dominant countries exploit the less developed ones. We should be working around this, not trying to prevent capitalist globalisation.

Capitalism needs to constantly find new markets to stave off an overproduction crisis; since people are always paid less than the value they add to a product, it's inherent to capitalism that more is produced than people can consume; therefore, it requires the constant opening up of new markets to essentially dump surplus produce. (it also deals with this problem through credit, which can delay an overproduction crisis....but it can also cause a massive financial crisis, which is even worse!) This is essentially the motor for imperialism.

The thing with the middle east today is they are sort of the last frontier for western capital. While other countries across the world lost capital controls and had to privitise everything due to the debt crisis of 80s-the IMF demanded all sorts of conditions friendly to western banks before it would offer a loan-the national bourgeoisies of these countries were flush off oil wealth and didn't need any financial assistance. As such, capital can only penetrate these countries through military force, and I think Iraq was the start of a much longer campaign to bring neoliberal globalisation to these countries.

However, what does it mean if these countries defeat western imperialism? OK, they can nationalise their companies and protect them but nationalised companies are still based on capital accumulation through exploitation. The same contradictions that drive the need to expand still exist, and after they have developed their productive techniques enough to compete with western companies, (hypothetically assuming that will happen) they are going to become imperialist as well, and go into competition with rival bourgeoisies until a hegemon forms and things are exactly as they are now!

I think people support national bourgeoisies over imperialist bourgeoisies simply because they want to feel like they're part of something big, because the workers movement isn't very international, frankly. Or significant.

However, the internationalisation of capital, forcing wages down as investment hops to wherever labour is cheaper, demands a response from workers, eventually. Working for this is more productive than discrediting the movement by getting in bed with unpleasant national bourgeoisies.

RedKnight
29th December 2007, 04:54
Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2007 09:49 pm
I won't credit it because the person who wrote it did so off-record. still, it's good.

Third Campism

Proponents of Third Campism argue that in imperialist war socialists should support neither the imperialist side (first camp) nor the resistance to it led by bourgeois forces in the semi colonial country (the second camp - although the AWL reject the Leninist analysis of imperialist powers and semi colonial countries as a simple explanation this will do). Instead of taking these two sides the Third Campists support the "Third Camp" of the working class movement. Their slogans are usually along the lines of "No to war, no to Saddam/the theocracy etc".

In this they sound very radical and very socialist but their argument is actually one which damages the international working class movement and inevitably ends up with them consciously or unconsciously siding with imperialism.

Imperialism

In order to understand why it is first necessary to explain what imperialism and imperialist war are.

The Marxist understanding of imperialism is that it is a transitional stage. "Free trade" gives way to the power of monopolies, banks and cartels and the dominance of the export of goods in earlier capitalism gives way to the dominance of the export of capital i.e. instead of capitalism opening up parts of the world as new markets for its goods, it opens them up in order to exploit their workers at a greater rate than it does the workers in its own country.

It is a transitional phase of capitalism because it is a phase in which all the material prerequisites for the establishment of socialism have been met and production is increasingly socialised whilst the ownership of the means of production increasingly falls into fewer and fewer hands. Imperialism is the phase in capitalism where the capitalist class no longer plays a progressive role but holds back the development of the means of production and humanity; it is the epoch of capitalism in decline.

Imperialism has opened up the world's markets and as a result there is a struggle amongst imperialist powers to divide and re-divide the world in order to secure profits. The war on Iraq as a war for oil and control of the Middle East is testament to this as are the imperialists' attempts to stop the nationalisation of companies in Latin America and to marketise the public sector through neoliberal reforms in Europe.

So then, as we can all agree this means that the defeat of the imperialists in their wars has two positive consequences: firstly, it enables the people of a country to not have their resources and their labour super-exploited by imperialist countries and their companies and opens up the question of how the society will be run; secondly, and of greater consequence, as imperialism is a world system the defeat of imperialism in one of its wars gives confidence to those resisting imperialism in the whole world and shows that imperialist hegemony can be challenged and beaten.

Resistance and its class dynamics

A problem can arrive for socialists in dealing with this though because whilst the defeat of imperialism is progressive both nationally and internationally the resistance to imperialism is often led by forces hostile to the working class movement. No sensible person would claim that the Taleban, Moqtadr Al-Sadr or the ruling regime in Iran are friends of the working class. Yet in both Iraq and Afghanistan forces with a political-Islamist programme are not only in the forefront of the fight against US/UK imperialism but are beating it. Similarly if and when the imperialists decide to attack Iran the first line of defence in Iran will be the military who are under the command of the Iranian ruling class.

The argument of the Third Campists – to support neither side and instead focus on the building up of an independent working class movement – sounds nice but completely dodges the question faced on the ground in countries under imperialist occupation: how to resist. Socialist politics which can’t deal with an imperialist war is worthless.

The political independence of the working class does not mean its abstention from the national struggles. On the contrary revolutionaries, the most conscious part of the working class, must be "tribunes of the people" not ignoring the biggest problems faced by society but by coming to the forefront of the most important struggles it faces and showing that it is only through the socialist revolution that offers a solution through action as well as words. In the context of the anti imperialist struggle this means that the task of revolutionaries is to engage in the fight and come to its leadership.

Doing this means that the working class must make a united front with sections of the national bourgeoisie in this struggle. This doesn't mean that the working class is dropping its political independence but that it sees that imperialist occupation affects all classes in an occupied society. Abstaining from this national struggle or adopting a "shoot both ways" position would be suicidal for the working class. Cutting it off from the biggest question facing society by for example taking the perspective that the biggest question in Iraq is trade union struggles rather than the occupation not only limits the ability of working class militants to agitate amongst the working class (and the urban poor, petty-bourgeoisie etc) but also means that after the defeat of imperialism having not led the struggle it will be in a worse position to take power in society.

From resistance to revolution

Undoubtedly the abstention of the working class from the struggle against imperialist occupation damages the ability of that struggle to win excluding not only numbers of people who could be participating in armed resistance but also a class of people who through their economic position can cripple the workings of a puppet regime. Third Campists would of course argue that the working class not participating in resistance to imperialism led by theocratic and bourgeois forces is not a problem as workers do not share the same aims as these forces.

However the abstention of the working class from the struggle against imperialism also weakens the working class in its struggle for emancipation. It would be undialectical and plain wrong to conclude that if the working class fights against imperialist occupation alongside those with bourgeois programs (and sometimes not even that) means that the working class are fighting for the victory and the implementation of these programs.

This is because of the inevitable contradictions within the national bourgeoisie of a country, sections of which will be bribed by the imperialist powers and sections of which will shy away from a struggle against imperialism in which the working class involve themselves heavily in and seek to take the leadership of. In participating in the resistance to imperialism the working class not only poses the question of how society should be run in places where the imperialists are defeated (where it can fight for workers control, soviets etc) but also poses a broader threat to capitalism, as the 1922 congress of the Communist International put it: "the objective tasks of the colonial revolution go beyond the bounds of bourgeois democracy because a decisive victory for this revolution is incompatible with the rule of world imperialism” i.e. there is no space outside imperialism and only the overthrow of capitalism worldwide can secure against it.

This stance does not hinder the political independence of the working class as the Third Campists might claim, it enriches it. Again, the 1922 congress of the Communist International is clear on this: “The refusal of Communists in the colonies to take part in the fight against imperialist tyranny, on the pretext of their supposed ‘defence’ of independent class interests, is the worst kind of opportunism and can only discredit the proletarian revolution”

There is no Third Camp

As we've seen the refusal of the working class to take the lead in the struggle against imperialism, whatever its current leadership might be weakens both the struggle to overthrow the imperialist occupation of a country and the capitalist system. You'd be forgiven for wondering what the point of such a theory is.

In the final analysis the Third Campist position only serves to defend imperialism. Their arguments on the question would make it seem as if the chief question in Iraq is that of the trade union occupation in Iraq rather than the imperialist occupation. Worse still they have argued that the occupation of Iraq has opened up a "breathing space" for the working class to organise in, in other words they think that imperialism has played a progressive role in Iraq. The utter weakness of their stance on imperialism can be further seen in the fact that they are having a faction fight over whether to call for the immediate withdrawal of British troops from Iraq, a position they currently don't have - you'd expect this from the Liberal Democrats but from an organisation claiming to be socialist?!?

The defeat of the USA in Vietnam was undoubtedly a progressive thing for the world working class movement and all those struggling against imperialism worldwide. The mere mention of the word still decades later stings the US's ruling class. Yet the resistance in Vietnam was led by Stalinists who killed revolutionaries and were certainly no friends of the working class. Would any right-minded socialist say that the victory over America in Vietnam was a bad thing because the leadership had reactionary politics? No. What is the difference between the resistance and the resistance in Iraq, Afghanistan and the one that will emerge in Iran? The truth is that the Third Campists are pandering to the racism involved in the war on terrorism, they cannot abide the idea that the working class should support a Muslim-led resistance.

You can see that Third Campism provides a socialist sounding echo of the imperialists on the front cover of November 1st's Weekly Worker which has bullet points stating that "Iran is developing nuclear weapons", "Iran sponsor[s] 'terrorism'", "Iran is not a peace-loving state", "Iran is an anti-Semitic state” and “Iran is an undemocratic and repressive country”. Are these really the key arguments that communists should be putting forward to the movement and the working class? Weekly Worker has gone from having contents mirroring Heat magazine to front pages mirroring the Sun.

The fight against imperialism in Britain and in Iran

The regime in Iran, despite inevitable disagreements, will resist imperialist attack in whatever form it comes. In a situation where Iran is under attack from the imperialists socialists should argue for the victory of Iran clearly and unapologetically breaking with those who think that there is any justification of imperialist war on the grounds that the imperialist countries have more democratic rights than Iran and can provide a space for progress in Iran.

This does not mean being uncritical of the regime but, as Karl Liebnecht said for the working class of imperialist countries at war "the main enemy is at home". The main struggle in Iran will be against imperialism any attempt to side-step that in the style of Weekly Worker can only serve the imperialists.

The situation will of course be different for workers in Iran. The dynamics of the struggle against imperialism will mean that inevitably it will come into conflict with sections the regime, who fear socialist revolution even more than they fear imperialist occupation. Nevertheless the struggle against imperialist occupation will be the main issue and it is only by the working class showing that in such a situation it is first and foremost an opponent of imperialism, that it is the hardest fighter against it and that it can change society to one without imperialist domination that it can weaken those opposed to its participation in an anti imperialist united front, break the hold of the bourgeois leadership of the resistance and provide a basis for the establishment of a socialist society.

A victory against imperialist occupation led by any force would be a progressive thing. To advocate a politics which not only diminishes the chances of that but also hands over the leadership of that struggle to bourgeois forces, as the Third Campists do, isn't a position worthy of genuine socialists and internationalists.
The military intervention in Afganistan was justified by virtue of Al Qaeda's terrorist attack upon the U.S., on 9/11/01. While I'm not sure if I agree entirely with how it is being carried out strategicly, it's motivation is pure. And also actually the so called "War on Terror" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_terror) is a conflict between two imperialistic forces. Al Qaeda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_qaeda) seeks to establish a global caliphate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate), while the western coalition forces seek to extend there sphere of influence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphere_of_influence). Therefore, just like during World War I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_war_I), we should not support either side. During World War I, Pres. Wilson claimed that the United States was entering the war in order to make the world safe for democracy, though we were allied with czarist Russia. :rolleyes: We must analyse situations from the standpoint of historical materialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_materialism), and not be caught up in all of the propoganda hype.

Dr. Rosenpenis
29th December 2007, 14:07
Come on, the national bourgeoisie of the third world has long-since been a close ally of the international ruling class. Supporting the former is the same as supporting the latter.

Spirit of Spartacus
29th December 2007, 15:08
Originally posted by Dr. [email protected] 29, 2007 02:06 pm
Come on, the national bourgeoisie of the third world has long-since been a close ally of the international ruling class. Supporting the former is the same as supporting the latter.
You can make such a statement only if you ignore the history of the anti-imperialist struggle for the past 100 years.

The war of national liberation in Algeria, for instance, was led by the national bourgeoisie under the banner of the FLN, against French imperialism.

The anti-apartheid struggle in South Africa was led by the national-bourgeoisie, under the banner of the ANC.

The anti-colonial struggle in India was led by the national bourgeoisie.

The anti-Zionist struggle in Palestine has been led by the national bourgeoisie.

In all these cases, the working-class and peasantry of these exploited regions played a significant, vital role, but they did so under the leadership of the national bourgeoisie.

There is no denying that the interests of the national bourgeoisie in exploited regions conflicts with those of the imperialist ruling-class.

Of course, the national bourgeoisie does not fight to liberate the working-class and peasantry. It fights for its own interests. And for this reason, national bourgeois movements are often inconsistent.

But they ARE anti-imperialist, they damage the capitalist world-system, and therefore it would be a major mistake on our part if we fail to work together with them.

Imperialism is a far greater exploiter than the national bourgeoisie, from the point-of-view of the Third World working-class.

Spirit of Spartacus
29th December 2007, 15:12
And Zurdito, that's an excellent critique of the "Third Camp" position.

Thanks for posting it.

redflag32
29th December 2007, 19:50
Great analysis,permission to post on other forums?

Dr. Rosenpenis
29th December 2007, 21:32
Originally posted by Spirit of [email protected] 29, 2007 12:07 pm
You can make such a statement only if you ignore the history of the anti-imperialist struggle for the past 100 years.

The war of national liberation in Algeria, for instance, was led by the national bourgeoisie under the banner of the FLN, against French imperialism.

The anti-apartheid struggle in South Africa was led by the national-bourgeoisie, under the banner of the ANC.

The anti-colonial struggle in India was led by the national bourgeoisie.

The anti-Zionist struggle in Palestine has been led by the national bourgeoisie.

In all these cases, the working-class and peasantry of these exploited regions played a significant, vital role, but they did so under the leadership of the national bourgeoisie.

There is no denying that the interests of the national bourgeoisie in exploited regions conflicts with those of the imperialist ruling-class.

Of course, the national bourgeoisie does not fight to liberate the working-class and peasantry. It fights for its own interests. And for this reason, national bourgeois movements are often inconsistent.

But they ARE anti-imperialist, they damage the capitalist world-system, and therefore it would be a major mistake on our part if we fail to work together with them.

Imperialism is a far greater exploiter than the national bourgeoisie, from the point-of-view of the Third World working-class.
Really?
You are overlooking a great many cases, particularly the ones in which the third-world national bourgeoisie is fully dependent on the international ruling class and willingly subordinated to it.

The rivalry between national bourgeoisies and the international bourgeoisie ended pretty much with neo-colonialism.

I'm not the best-equipped person to argue this point, but to say that the third world working-class must unite itself with its bourgeoisie against imperialism is some gravely outdated bullshit. I can't speak for Pakistan, but the Brazilian ruling class has never done anything to "break free" of its position of subordination in the world. Rather, I would say that its existence and growth is directly dependent on the international bourgeoisie, possessor of technology and capital.

Zurdito
30th December 2007, 14:09
Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 07:49 pm
Great analysis,permission to post on other forums?
Granted comrade.

Zurdito
30th December 2007, 14:35
The military intervention in Afganistan was justified by virtue of Al Qaeda's terrorist attack upon the U.S., on 9/11/01. While I'm not sure if I agree entirely with how it is being carried out strategicly, it's motivation is pure.

...

while the western coalition forces seek to extend there sphere of influence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphere_of_influence).

The highlighted bits contradict each other. Which one do you believe comrade?


And also actually the so called "War on Terror" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_terror) is a conflict between two imperialistic forces. Al Qaeda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_qaeda) seeks to establish a global caliphate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate),

I recommend you read this:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/

So imperialism is not just anyone who ever said they wanted an empire. Imperialism is a stage of capitalism, which exists today, and which exploits and opresses people today. I couldn't care less about fighting an empire that doesn't exist. Talk about a way to render yourself usueless.

"What did you do today Red Knight?"

"I went out and fought against the Calipahte mum."

:rolleyes:

I've got news for you: there's no Caliphate, and there never will be. The vast majority of muslims oppose the concept, and those tiny minority who do speak of it a.) usually do so as a false reaction to their opression under the imperialsit capitalist system, just like Irish republicans induced backwards lookign rhetoric about a medieval kingdom in order to rally support for their resistance, just like Catalans and Basques after decades of opression by Franco in some cases were lured into reactionary discourse about medieval kingdoms to justify their "identity", and b.) they do not have the means to establsih a calipahte.

On the other hand: imperialist capitalism does exist, the people running it do have the means to acheieve the things they state, and they do have the active support of a significant part of their own population, as well as the passive co-operation fo a majority both at home and abroad.

So to compare the "Caliphate" with western imperialism is the height of idealism. You're ignoring objective reality compeltely. You are equating something which doesn't exist and is not even taking shape anwyehre in the world - the "Caliphate" - with something which does exist, and defines the whole world we live in - the imperialism of the "developed" world. Apparently, both are equally important because the "ideas" exist.

Well in that case maybe it's you who would read up on historical materialism, and not me.

RedKnight
1st January 2008, 00:36
Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 02:34 pm

The military intervention in Afganistan was justified by virtue of Al Qaeda's terrorist attack upon the U.S., on 9/11/01. While I'm not sure if I agree entirely with how it is being carried out strategicly, it's motivation is pure.

...

while the western coalition forces seek to extend there sphere of influence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphere_of_influence).

The highlighted bits contradict each other. Which one do you believe comrade?


And also actually the so called "War on Terror" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_terror) is a conflict between two imperialistic forces. Al Qaeda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_qaeda) seeks to establish a global caliphate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate),

I recommend you read this:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/

So imperialism is not just anyone who ever said they wanted an empire. Imperialism is a stage of capitalism, which exists today, and which exploits and opresses people today. I couldn't care less about fighting an empire that doesn't exist. Talk about a way to render yourself usueless.

"What did you do today Red Knight?"

"I went out and fought against the Calipahte mum."

:rolleyes:

I've got news for you: there's no Caliphate, and there never will be. The vast majority of muslims oppose the concept, and those tiny minority who do speak of it a.) usually do so as a false reaction to their opression under the imperialsit capitalist system, just like Irish republicans induced backwards lookign rhetoric about a medieval kingdom in order to rally support for their resistance, just like Catalans and Basques after decades of opression by Franco in some cases were lured into reactionary discourse about medieval kingdoms to justify their "identity", and b.) they do not have the means to establsih a calipahte.

On the other hand: imperialist capitalism does exist, the people running it do have the means to acheieve the things they state, and they do have the active support of a significant part of their own population, as well as the passive co-operation fo a majority both at home and abroad.

So to compare the "Caliphate" with western imperialism is the height of idealism. You're ignoring objective reality compeltely. You are equating something which doesn't exist and is not even taking shape anwyehre in the world - the "Caliphate" - with something which does exist, and defines the whole world we live in - the imperialism of the "developed" world. Apparently, both are equally important because the "ideas" exist.

Well in that case maybe it's you who would read up on historical materialism, and not me.
I believe both statements are true. Since Al Qaeda's based in Afganistan, and was supported by the Taliban, the U.S.'s retalitory actions were justifiable. However Iraq had nothing to do with Al Qaeda. I feel that, just like in the previous "Persian Gulf War", "Operation Iraqi Freedom" was motivated by conflict btween rival oil cartels. Just as drug cartels fight over turf, so also do oil cartels as well. So therefore it is an imperalist struggle, economicly. The islamist terrorist organisations, which I was refering to calls for the establishment of a caliphate and/or Shariah law. hxxp://www.hizb.org.uk/ (http://hxxp://www.hizb.org.uk). hxxp://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6943070.stm (http://hxxp://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6943070.stm) hxxp://www.khilafahparty.org/ (http://hxxp://www.khilafahparty.org/) hxxp://www.aina.org/news/20060616105850.htm (http://hxxp://www.aina.org/news/20060616105850.htm) I do not of course necessarily feel that the population of majority muslim countries as a whole are supportive of the goal of creating a caliphate. http://www.hekmatist.com/k4.do%20not%20confuse%20.htm Now for an opposing side, here is an article discounting the likelihood of a caliphate being set up by force, just to show that I can show both sides. hxxp://www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/02/13/the_caliphate_myth.php (http://hxxp://www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/02/13/the_caliphate_myth.php)