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Antiprophet
28th December 2007, 13:24
If you spend any time arguing with the cappies youll know that a popular argument against any ideology that wishes to do away with social class goes something like:

Itll never work because its natural to want to compete and be better than your fellow man, some people will always be better than others.

And I actually somewhat agree (except the Itll never work part). Even in primitive communism you had leaders and some were more respected than others. Pretty much every social mammal species compete against one another for a higher position. The way I usually respond to this argument is that what is being described is social status and not social class. Status maybe dependent on class in capitalism and class societies but it doesn't mean they are always linked together. Yes people will always compete for a higher social status but that doesnt go against economic cooperation between people. The abolition of social class doesnt mean the abolition of social status and after communism/socialism/anarchism is established there will still be different social statuses (i think...). For example a future Shakespeare or Newton will have a higher social status that most simply because they will be looked up to by others for their contribution civilization. And theres the competition, competition could be for how much a person contributes which would lead to that persons social status.

But Im not sure if this is just my position or a Marxist/anarchist position since Ive never read anything on social status, or a similar concept, written by any widely accepted Marxist or anarchist. Theres a good possibility that Im completely wrong about this and most of those ideologies also want to also do away with social status.

Lynx
28th December 2007, 19:14
Does sport require money?

mikelepore
29th December 2007, 00:32
because its natural to want to compete and be better than your fellow man

The problem isn't that some people want to. The problem is that society adopts institutions that systematically offer people the opportunities to.

We could have a society in which some people may want to be the ruler, the master, the boss, the hoarder, the expropriator, but in which the society doesn't create channels for them to act on that urge.

Today society bends over backwards to provide the methods for the ruling class to bequeath their class status to their offspring, to incorporate their businesses to make them legally immune from reactions to their crimes against society, to call it a crime for the poor to take from the rich but to call it a contract negotiation for the rich to take from the poor.

mikelepore
29th December 2007, 00:43
Some people say that the capitalist class "worked hard" to get there, that having started out as ordinary poor folks, they "earned" it. Is that so? Where did their wealth really come from?

For trivia lovers, would you like to see something that was in the news ten years ago this month? I copied the following data from Forbes magazine, edition of December 1997. It describes the sources of the wealth of some of the top capitalists in the U.S. as of that publication date.

G. P. Getty, $1.9 billion inheritance
J. P. Getty, Jr. $1 billion inheritance
C. M. Getty, $670 million inheritance
A. C. Getty Earhart, $670 million inheritance
C. E. Getty Perry, $670 million inheritance
W. C. Ford, $1.4 billion inheritance
J. Ford, $800 million inheritance
R. A. Hearst, $1.4 billion inheritance
W. R. Hearst III, $800 million inheritance
D. W. Hearst, Jr., $700 million inheritance
G. R. Hearst, Jr., $700 million inheritance
A. Hearst, $700 million inheritance
P. Hearst Cooke, $700 million inheritance
O. M. Dupont Bredin, $500 million inheritance
C. S. Du Pont Darden, $500 million inheritance
I. Du Pont, Jr., $500 million inheritance
I. S. Du Pont May, $500 million inheritance
A. F. Du Pont Mills, $515 million inheritance
J. C. Walton, $6.5 billion inheritance
H. R. Walton, $6.4 billion inheritance
A. L. Walton, $6.3 billion inheritance
S. R. Walton, $6.3 billion inheritance
J. T. Walton, $6.3 billion inheritance
A. K. Walton, $660 million inheritance
L. M. Walton, $660 million inheritance

Luís Henrique
29th December 2007, 01:48
I have absolutely no problem with competition.

I have absolutely no problem with the fact that some people are better musicians, computer programmers, writers, surgeons, painters, soccer players, or civil servants than I am. And I have no problem with people wanting to be better than others.

What I have a problem with is, a) with people who succeed in competition drowning themselves in suntuary consumption, while people who loose starve; and b) people competing about ridiculous things, such as who's able to better predict the behaviour of stock market.

Lus Henrique