Karate and Anarchy?

[Rage]

What would happen to the tradition of Karate belts in an Anarchist society? The rank scheme has been a relatively recent addition (It was adopted from Judo in 1924), so I can see how you could just go without it. In most karate dojos, the senior members are treated differently then the juniors. Since in an anarchy society, there would be no forms of authority etc. would we just all stop doing karate or go without belt ranking?

It seems to me that the use of the belt system is a little Bourgeoisie anyways. I think I would be okay with letting it go, but I did work very hard to get to where I am today.

-Fawkes

[rouchambeau]

I don't think that belt rankings and preferential treatment of senior members of a dojo are the kinds of issues that anarchism seeks to resolve.

[al8]

I think people would stop practising Karate all together. And that there would be a shift towards the functional martial arts (FM) as apposed to traditional martial arts (TM ).

That is, a system of fighting that is meant for efficacy in actual fighting. With lively, hands-on training methods -- training reflexivity in conjunction with memorizing sets of fighting manouvers in (semi-)real situations -- al beit with diffuculty/resitence/hardness determined between partners in ratio with skill level of each.
As opposed to traditonal martial arts where things are determined and justified because they have been done for so long already -- i.e because of tradition! And where training is rigid and and beside the point. Fx. the practising and learning of kata (ritualized dance movements with mere simbolic and historical conection with actual fighting) and the repetitons practising of attacks on thin air. Traditional martial arts are just so irrational, hierarchical, authoritarian, sectarian and teaming with superstion and scams that I don't know where to begin. But one things sure TM don't ryhme the least bit with anarchism.

I recomend bullshido.net/ (http://www.bullshido.net) for people interested in articles that speak against TM-martial arts and it's nonsense. And I sugest that comrades acquaint them selves with MMA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_martial_arts) (mixed martial arts).

[Labor Shall Rule]

Are the freedom police going to barge into Karate schools, demanding for the instructers to be overthrown? Wouldn't it be more realistic to say that some 'authority' will still exist in many places?

[which doctor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 09:51 pm
What would happen to the tradition of Karate belts in an Anarchist society? The rank scheme has been a relatively recent addition (It was adopted from Judo in 1924), so I can see how you could just go without it. In most karate dojos, the senior members are treated differently then the juniors. Since in an anarchy society, there would be no forms of authority etc. would we just all stop doing karate or go without belt ranking?
In agreements in which you voluntarily enter, there can be no authority since there can be no coercion because you are free to leave at any moment. There's nothing wrong with the belt system and hierarchy of karate in an anarchist society. Maybe there will be some schools in which things are run differently, but the two can coexist peacefully.

[al8]

Originally posted by Labor Shall [email protected] 23, 2007 05:33 am
Are the freedom police going to barge into Karate schools, demanding for the instructers to be overthrown? Wouldn't it be more realistic to say that some 'authority' will still exist in many places?
That's bit of a straman. Your just imagining ludicrous methods for a cause and think you've layed the case dead. Not so. By this you disregard the complexity of actual struggle.

If I copy your jive I might as well say something like;


Are communist going achive communism by barging into factories demanding that workers squeeze a cantilope out their nose? Wouldn't it be more realistic to say that some 'wage-slavery' will still exist in many places after the official revolution?

[Dros]

There might be a shift away from belts. Belts did not exist originally. But the hierarchical structure will always exist. And that is necessary in a Karate ryu unlike in the economy.

And people will definitely still practice the traditional martial arts. Please. These things have been around (in one form or another) for thousands (yes thousands) of years. They're not gonna drop 'em because you don't like the required "hierarchy".

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 02:51 am
What would happen to the tradition of Karate belts in an Anarchist society? The rank scheme has been a relatively recent addition (It was adopted from Judo in 1924), so I can see how you could just go without it. In most karate dojos, the senior members are treated differently then the juniors. Since in an anarchy society, there would be no forms of authority etc. would we just all stop doing karate or go without belt ranking?

It seems to me that the use of the belt system is a little Bourgeoisie anyways. I think I would be okay with letting it go, but I did work very hard to get to where I am today.

-Fawkes
There is no problem with that kind of hierarchy - meritocratic hierarchy with no real influence in life outside the dojo.

If being a black-belt meant real privilege, with differential access to the means of production, it would be a problem. As it is, being a black-belt only means you are recognised as someone who knows how to fight karate in an outstanding way. Why would that be in anyway a problem in a classless society?

Luís Henrique

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Uh, I don't see any conflict. Competition and levels aren't necessarily bad; only when they affect the quality of living. If a football team loses a game, big deal. If a karate student achieves his belt and his friend doesn't, big deal.

[Zazaban]

Anarchism is opposed to compulsory authority. Certain situations authority may be granted, such as karate and some forms of sexual acts.

P.S. I realize how weird and incoherent this post is, and I apologize.

[rebelworker]

I train in philipino Martial Arts, my Instructr is very influenced by anarchist politics (though Im not sure if he still identifies as an anarchist).

In his classesd he works for equality of the sexes, respective behavior and an open relationship between students and teacher. He also encourages students to become teachers, something that is part of the art anyway...

So long story short, we still have belts, because it is a sign of mastery of the art, but it dose not give the right to be abusive of others with lower belts.

Just As I am a tradesman, I am still an aprentice, and respect more experienced tradespeople above me, they have experience, i must learn from them.

This is not a bad kind of authority, as long as this experience dose not give people unrelated privaledge or power over me. A master plumber can ask me to get some tools for him, but not to clean his house.

Some authority is voluntary and nessesary. If unskilled tradespeople didnt take the lead from Masters, people would be dying in poorly constructed houses or building all the time.

[RedKnight]

I can not tell you what it might be like in an anarchist society, since there never was an anarchist settlement that lasted long enough to develope a martial art. However in the People's Republic of China, the Communist regime developed an officialy authorised system of Kung Fu, called Wushu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wushu_%28sport%29). While the Soviet Union developed Systema (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systema). Now I'm trained in the begining basics of Isshin Ryu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isshin_Ryu), which is the martial art that U.S. Marines are trained in on Okinawa Island. It consequently is a more rigidly authoritarian system, which emphasises drills. In all fairness though, I did not feel that I was getting along very well with the head sensai, so I may be sort of biased against it. I'm certainly glad that you have acheived such a high obi dan (belt rank). I have great rei (reverence) for you. That's one of the first things I noticed about the traditions of the dojo. There is much courtesy (rei). Like you have to bow when entering, bow when exiting, and bow to each other. And you can only say three phrases to the sensais (black belts), "yes Sensai, no Sensai, or "I'm not sure Sensai". Anything else would be back talk. I feel that there must be a more natural, and equal ryu (way). Something less feudal, and hierarchial. But the military is structured according to an authoritarian chain of command. So they want there people to develope the appropiate level of discipline. Under anarchism however, there will only be authority in the sense of expertise. Like I'm an authority on the subject of martial art history, which is why I can inform you about all the things which I just mentioned in this post.