How come americans hate socialism?

[marxist_god]

I am a realist, an observer of reality, not a utopian person who denies reality and tries to escape from its truths.

The truth is that Ron Paul and the right-wing free market libertarian sector of USA have more support than the US left, I don't understand why really. Which and what are the causes for so many americans to hate leftism ideology, and to welcome, free-market-libertarianism ideology. I really cannot explain it, since i am not an american historian like Howard Zin, etc.

From my own point of view i think that USA has suffered about 100 years of Anti-Leftism Media propaganda, and this is why the hatred toward socialist ideology

marxist_god

[spartan]

Libertarianism is closer to the ideals of the founding fathers of America (Who most Americans are taught from birth to look up to) then Socialism ever was.

Thus Libertarianism makes most Americans think of the "good" old founding fathers who never did anything bad and who were all for the "people" governing :rolleyes:

[Raúl Duke]

I really haven't seen many Ron Paul supporters in my area. Actually I've been able to make some people sympathize with my ideas (although afterwords they go on without caring...). There's only been a few who act like I'm lying, etc (Example, I said something that was like "The FBI is the USA's secret police" and when they say "that's not true" I can always mention COINTELPRO, the "assasination" of independentista Filiberto Ojeda in Puerto Rico, the new Violent Radicalization act, etc) yet I shut them up (actually I have a tendency to silence people with my arguments in school. Here of course its harder.)

Than there are those who of course oppose what I sat but they are usually Republicans (right wingers) and I'm not interested in introducing them with my leftist ideas when I can do that to more liberal and apathetic people.

On a sidenote, I dislike people who treat the constitution as a sacred object. They tend to be naive about it and know little of its exact origins. It was intended for the elite (The convention to make it was "closed doors" and they mention things about "protecting the minority of opulence against the majority of necessity". Thats what the constitution actually means in terms of minority rights.)

[Wanted Man]

I'm certainly sounding like a broken record today. However, I must once again ask some simple questions: is this really true? Where can we see this? Why is this the case? It just happens a lot on this forum: someone makes an outlandish claim, provides no sources, and then proclaims himself a "realist" and discussion ensues. Nobody even cares whether the premises behind this guy's arguments are true. It's good to find out about that before doing anything else.

It just seems very unlikely to me. America != the "blogosphere" or "Politics Forum" or "Cyber Nations Forums". Getting opinions is difficult, because it all depends on who you ask. Obviously, you will get different replies in an office than in a factory. More importantly, communists don't particularly care how many people actually support (and, presumably, understand) "socialism" or "libertarianism". The vast majority will consider itself a-political, liberal, moderate or conservative. Do you think that all striking workers consider themselves communists? The real point is that they are practicing class struggle. That they aren't communists has more to do with the weakness of the movement in these days of neo-liberalism.

[Wanted Man]

Oh, and it's pretty ignorant to blame "the media". It's the liberal/conservative canard that they love to use against each other. There is no concerted "evil" media effort against the "good" communism. The media simply propagate the values of bourgeois liberalism, just like all other institutions in a capitalist system. Because of bourgeois liberalism's cultural hegemony, there is simply no market for any different thought.

And it certainly isn't profitable to make sure that everything that appears in the news is the job of dedicated journalists who make a fair and balanced report. It's much easier to just build what's going on around prejudices that you have already established. It's nothing but the class interest of the media owners.

I made a longer post about the media in this thread: http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=73724

[Zurdito]

why do many Americans hate socialism?

"The values of the ruling class are the dominant values in any society".

Nowehere would this be more true than in the dominant empire of the time.

[bootleg42]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 12:45 am
why do many Americans hate socialism?

"The values of the ruling class are the dominant values in any society".

Nowehere would this be more true than in the dominant empire of the time.
True.

Well most working people I debate don't even know what socialism, much less communism is.

When they start going off about it's bad and not to listen to it, I ask them, "can you define what communism is?".

We just need to make the know what it is and what it's NOT!!!!! The Dogmatism on the left also needs to end. This dogmatism is what kills us.

We must leave dogmatism. This doesn't mean that we stop the ultimate goal of a classless, stateless society where the means of production are in the hands of workers.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 11:44 pm
Libertarianism is closer to the ideals of the founding fathers of America (Who most Americans are taught from birth to look up to) then Socialism ever was.

Thus Libertarianism makes most Americans think of the "good" old founding fathers who never did anything bad and who were all for the "people" governing :rolleyes:
I think you're right there. the political culture of the States is so distorted that many people there think ANY interference by the state in regulating the market is a type of socialism, no joke.

[cyu]

From my own point of view i think that USA has suffered about 100 years of Anti-Leftism Media propaganda, and this is why the hatred toward socialist ideology

You've answered it yourself. It's pervasive in the society. From school, to church, to the media. The people in power use that power to prolong their rule. It doesn't matter if it's the United States or the Soviet Union, it's the same.

To anyone who doesn't believe brainwashing works, here's an interesting observation: Why do most children brought up in the U.S. grow up to be Christians? Why do most children brought up in Iran grow up to be Muslim? Brainwashing is a lot more effective than many people believe.

[marxist_god]

However my friends, we shouldn't satanize the USA as the "bad wolf" of the movie, because most states in this world are capitalist bad wolves. The problem is not USA, the problem is capitalism. I think that USA needs an american style socialism, with its own culture, traditions, etc. because we cannot escape the reality that each country has their music, cultures, etc.

However it is hard since the tradition of free market libertarian ideology is so ingrained in this society

marxist_god

[Raúl Duke]

However it is hard since the tradition of free market libertarian ideology is so ingrained in this society

I don't really see many people jumping up and down for free market libertarianism where I'm at...

(Than again, Miami isn't very much representative for the rest of the US.)

Libertarianism seems big because its a bunch of overzealous dorks posting it all over forums and such. Although I heard Ron Paul was able to raise a large amount of money in one day...

hmm...

[Tatarin]

Yes, propaganda is probably the motivator here. I would also say what little education people recieve of leftism itself. At most, the answer would be "it works on paper, but not in reality", or that it isn't the human nature to be nice to each other.

Then we also have the Christian right too. Because leftism only brings homosexuality, lazyness, bigger state and more taxes. Oh, and all leftists are atheists too.

[Xiao Banfa]

There is no concerted "evil" media effort against the "good" communism. The media simply propagate the values of bourgeois liberalism, just like all other institutions in a capitalist system.

The privately owned media are inextricably tied in with the capitalist system. They are the capitalist system.

The history of my country, New Zealand, is a tragic example of that. Every time the workers got bolshie or the social democrats wanted to nationalise a part of the economy for any other reason that protecting the bosses profits, the capitalist would mobilise their forces. This included the media.

A privately owned media firm with a boss at the top thinks the same as any other privately owned firm with a boss at the top.

The vicious campaigns they unleash whenever the balance of forces is about to swing in the workers favour illustrate the power of the capitalist class.


Because of bourgeois liberalism's cultural hegemony, there is simply no market for any different thought.

There have been times when the New Zealand was full of enthusiasm for left wing politics. The private interests weren't going to fan these flames by allowing that to be reflected in their publications.

Privately-owned media is not democratic, it is manipulative.

[MT5678]

"Our modern fetish is universal suffrage. We vote. What does that mean? We choose between two bodies of real, though not avowed, autocrats".
-Helen Keller
She was right. Democrats and Republicans are all the same, then and now. They both work for the bourgeois. The Republicans think that the best way to halt social change is to make nationalistic, messianic-militarist, religious appeals. The Democrats would love to be able to do that. But they can't. So their job is to pretend to support the working class.

Their record tells another story.

The collapse of progressive taxation began with the Carter regime. Clinton pretended to change things, but because of regressive social security, he ended up doing nothing. The wealth gap now is larger than ever.

Clinton et al cut the last vestiges of welfare.

Clinton et al backed NAFTA, despite labor advisory committee protests.

Clinton et al backed monsters such as Suharto and Musharraf.

Today, none of the major Democratic candidates, not Edwards, Biden, Obama, or Clinton, agrees to end the Occupation of Iraq by 2013

We have a bipartisan consensus. But I still think that the U.S. is super likely to become a leftist state in my lifetime (give it until 2070 or so). Why? Because the dominant political discourse is so far to the right that no one cares about the workers. But as things get worse, the workers will rise. Income inequality in New York is on the order of income inequality in Namibia. It won't be long until the rest of the U.S. follows.

[marxist_god]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 05:26 am
Yes, propaganda is probably the motivator here. I would also say what little education people recieve of leftism itself. At most, the answer would be "it works on paper, but not in reality", or that it isn't the human nature to be nice to each other.

Then we also have the Christian right too. Because leftism only brings homosexuality, lazyness, bigger state and more taxes. Oh, and all leftists are atheists too.


Hey my friend: here is a great site about how TV controls people: http://www.tvnewslies.org

[marxist_god]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 07:02 am
"Our modern fetish is universal suffrage. We vote. What does that mean? We choose between two bodies of real, though not avowed, autocrats".
-Helen Keller
She was right. Democrats and Republicans are all the same, then and now. They both work for the bourgeois. The Republicans think that the best way to halt social change is to make nationalistic, messianic-militarist, religious appeals. The Democrats would love to be able to do that. But they can't. So their job is to pretend to support the working class.

Their record tells another story.

The collapse of progressive taxation began with the Carter regime. Clinton pretended to change things, but because of regressive social security, he ended up doing nothing. The wealth gap now is larger than ever.

Clinton et al cut the last vestiges of welfare.

Clinton et al backed NAFTA, despite labor advisory committee protests.

Clinton et al backed monsters such as Suharto and Musharraf.

Today, none of the major Democratic candidates, not Edwards, Biden, Obama, or Clinton, agrees to end the Occupation of Iraq by 2013

We have a bipartisan consensus. But I still think that the U.S. is super likely to become a leftist state in my lifetime (give it until 2070 or so). Why? Because the dominant political discourse is so far to the right that no one cares about the workers. But as things get worse, the workers will rise. Income inequality in New York is on the order of income inequality in Namibia. It won't be long until the rest of the U.S. follows.


Hello, you are right about the US-bipartycracy system, and it is sad that USA doesn't have a big alternative party.

marxist_god

[manic expression]

For generations, many Americans have:

a.) been able to sustain comfortable living standards
b.) been able to avoid (or ignore) the threat of poverty or declining luxury
c.) been convinced that they have the ability to reach the top

America has been changing since the end of the Cold War, since various defeats of the working class, since unions started to get weaker and the bourgeoisie started to get stronger.

Many Americans now face the problems they THOUGHT they wouldn't have to face. You can no longer sustain a middle-class lifestyle with a working class position. It's just not possible anymore. A few generations ago, you could live in a good house with one high school-educated worker; today, you can barely do the same with two college-educated professionals. The benefits of imperialism are rapidly disappearing for the vast majority, and Americans are now faced with increased exploitation and deprivation. In other words, more people are being reduced to lower and more desperate situations.

The fabled American "middle class" (along with small farmers and the like), which for so long was a source of strong anti-socialist sentiment, is presently being demolished by imperialism. The capitalists are converting former members of this counterrevolutionary class into desperate and angry workers. In America today, the capitalists are employing their own gravediggers.

[marxist_god]

Originally posted by manic [email protected] 24, 2007 02:08 am
For generations, many Americans have:

a.) been able to sustain comfortable living standards
b.) been able to avoid (or ignore) the threat of poverty or declining luxury
c.) been convinced that they have the ability to reach the top

America has been changing since the end of the Cold War, since various defeats of the working class, since unions started to get weaker and the bourgeoisie started to get stronger.

Many Americans now face the problems they THOUGHT they wouldn't have to face. You can no longer sustain a middle-class lifestyle with a working class position. It's just not possible anymore. A few generations ago, you could live in a good house with one high school-educated worker; today, you can barely do the same with two college-educated professionals. The benefits of imperialism are rapidly disappearing for the vast majority, and Americans are now faced with increased exploitation and deprivation. In other words, more people are being reduced to lower and more desperate situations.

The fabled American "middle class" (along with small farmers and the like), which for so long was a source of strong anti-socialist sentiment, is presently being demolished by imperialism. The capitalists are converting former members of this counterrevolutionary class into desperate and angry workers. In America today, the capitalists are employing their own gravediggers.


Hello my friend, your education is impecable. Well said, you have hit the nail in the center. That's what's happening with the former-small capitalists, now they are turning into revolutionary since they cannot longer live in the old ways. Your analysis is related to what Marx said in the Communist Manifest, that the business owners are stimulating the revolution

marxist_god

[SouthernBelle82]

Originally posted by Van [email protected] 23, 2007 12:23 am
I'm certainly sounding like a broken record today. However, I must once again ask some simple questions: is this really true? Where can we see this? Why is this the case? It just happens a lot on this forum: someone makes an outlandish claim, provides no sources, and then proclaims himself a "realist" and discussion ensues. Nobody even cares whether the premises behind this guy's arguments are true. It's good to find out about that before doing anything else.

It just seems very unlikely to me. America != the "blogosphere" or "Politics Forum" or "Cyber Nations Forums". Getting opinions is difficult, because it all depends on who you ask. Obviously, you will get different replies in an office than in a factory. More importantly, communists don't particularly care how many people actually support (and, presumably, understand) "socialism" or "libertarianism". The vast majority will consider itself a-political, liberal, moderate or conservative. Do you think that all striking workers consider themselves communists? The real point is that they are practicing class struggle. That they aren't communists has more to do with the weakness of the movement in these days of neo-liberalism.
I agree. Look at where he's at in the national polls. Just because you see signs everywhere doesn't really mean anything in my opinion. I'd be surprised if he came in fourth in the primaries actually. That's as far as I see him going personally.

[marxist_god]

Originally posted by SouthernBelle82+December 24, 2007 02:47 am--> (SouthernBelle82 @ December 24, 2007 02:47 am)
Van [email protected] 23, 2007 12:23 am
I'm certainly sounding like a broken record today. However, I must once again ask some simple questions: is this really true? Where can we see this? Why is this the case? It just happens a lot on this forum: someone makes an outlandish claim, provides no sources, and then proclaims himself a "realist" and discussion ensues. Nobody even cares whether the premises behind this guy's arguments are true. It's good to find out about that before doing anything else.

It just seems very unlikely to me. America != the "blogosphere" or "Politics Forum" or "Cyber Nations Forums". Getting opinions is difficult, because it all depends on who you ask. Obviously, you will get different replies in an office than in a factory. More importantly, communists don't particularly care how many people actually support (and, presumably, understand) "socialism" or "libertarianism". The vast majority will consider itself a-political, liberal, moderate or conservative. Do you think that all striking workers consider themselves communists? The real point is that they are practicing class struggle. That they aren't communists has more to do with the weakness of the movement in these days of neo-liberalism.
I agree. Look at where he's at in the national polls. Just because you see signs everywhere doesn't really mean anything in my opinion. I'd be surprised if he came in fourth in the primaries actually. That's as far as I see him going personally. [/b]


The problem is that we are at a very dangerous time. What i mean is that neocons have been so harsh, so luciferian, so evil, that it is fair to state that neocons and Bush have been the worse government of all humankind. Americans right now don't care about ideology, about capitalism or socialism, etc. what americans want is Bush out of office, an end to fascist searches, guantanamo, Patriot fascist acts, cops all over the place, raids, and the whole juggernaut machine of plunder and exploitation that's been unfolding since 2001. That's why lots of people are supporting Ron Paul, not because he is the best, but because he along with Kucinich, Mike Gravel, etc. are the only hopes America has right now to end this juggernaut of plundering and exploitation.

We have to be realist, the leftist parties in USA are just too weak for people to vote for them. If USA was a conscious nation, US society would support a leftist movement, but this is not the case. There is not an awakening yet, so since leftist parties are so weak in America, Americans are choosing one of the lesser evils, I mean even Satan would be better than Bush

marxist_god

[Dros]

Why do many Americans hate socialism?

There's a lot of history here. Ever since 1900 the Americans have been taught that socialism, communism, and anarchism are evil and "un-American".

Ther Red Scares, McCarthyism, the Cold War, etc...

Up until 1991 the US was constantly struggling with the Soviet Union. That has a lot to do with it.

[marxist_god]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 03:37 am

Why do many Americans hate socialism?

There's a lot of history here. Ever since 1900 the Americans have been taught that socialism, communism, and anarchism are evil and "un-American".

Ther Red Scares, McCarthyism, the Cold War, etc...

Up until 1991 the US was constantly struggling with the Soviet Union. That has a lot to do with it.


Hey folks, i was reading some months ago a book about personal investment by Peter Lynch, an economist, called "Learn to Earn", a basic book about how the USe ecomomic system works, its about the history of US capitalism and how it was founded. And in this book the author talks about how USA was founded, he being a capitalist economist, gives you astonishing truths about how USA was founded, and that the Pilgrims were gonna install a socialist system but then, the leader thought that "free market" economics was the best for the colony in America, and this long history of free market tradition in USA, is one of the great reasons of why people in this country hate socialism. Even the holidays are linked to capitalism, like thanksgiving, christmas, etc.. Howard Zinn is another great writter who writes about how USA was founded:


here is a small review of it:


http://www.amazon.com/review/product/04711...rBy=addFiveStar (http://www.amazon.com/review/product/0471180033/ref=cm_cr_pr_hist_5?%5Fencoding=UTF8&filterBy=addFiveStar)

This review is from: Learn to Earn : A Beginner's Guide to the Basics of Investing and Business (Paperback)

In the beginning of the book, the authors remarked that high schools have forgotten to teach one of the most important courses of all: investing. History we teach, but not the roles that innovations and companies have played. If you missed this important course in your formative years, then this book is for you. The book is fun to read, and cheap to own.

The book has four chapters.

Chapter One reviews the history of capitalism. You will find how stocks got started in Europe centuries ago. You will also learn how, more than a hundred years ago, Europeans invested in the then emerging market: The United States. Their sorrows and joys perhaps will give you some perspective when you invest in today's emerging market in China. You will also read about bubbles in the history, not just the one before the Great Depression.

Chapter Two covers the basics of investing. The discussion here is mostly intended for people who can invest money for a long time. The basic points here are that you should start invest early, and that stocks are the best performer among various investment options.

Chapter Three outlines the life of a company. It helps the investor to begin to think like the owner of a company.

Chapter Four tells the stories of many companies.

There are two Appendices, one on stockpicking tools, the other on reading balance sheet.

The book was published in 1995. Much of the material is timeless. However, if the authors decide to write a new edition, they might want to add more materials about internet. For example, a beginner can use a web page like http://finance.yahoo.com to track the performance of stocks and portfolios that he or she has picked, without investing any real money. Also, internet has significantly changed the procedure for the individual investor to move money around.

[Labor Shall Rule]

Most Americans are apolitical. If you look at elections, the turn-out is shockingly low. There are complicated registration procedures, barriers that are restrictive to voters who have incomes that fall below the median, and the factor of not even feeling that your vote counts contributes to the drift from electoral politics.

As far as the popularity of 'socialism' is concerned, you would discover that working class households support abortion rights, oppose the imperialist wars in Iraq, think that the economy is doing either 'fairly badly' or 'very badly', do not have confidence in the government, and consider healthcare to be a leading national priority.

The popularity of canidates is exaggerated - the 'leading' that an individual canidate might have in the polls is certainly not representative of popular opinion.

[marxist_god]

Originally posted by Labor Shall [email protected] 25, 2007 04:32 am
Most Americans are apolitical. If you look at elections, the turn-out is shockingly low. There are complicated registration procedures, barriers that are restrictive to voters who have incomes that fall below the median, and the factor of not even feeling that your vote counts contributes to the drift from electoral politics.

As far as the popularity of 'socialism' is concerned, you would discover that working class households support abortion rights, oppose the imperialist wars in Iraq, think that the economy is doing either 'fairly badly' or 'very badly', do not have confidence in the government, and consider healthcare to be a leading national priority.

The popularity of canidates is exaggerated - the 'leading' that an individual canidate might have in the polls is certainly not representative of popular opinion.


Hey my friend you are right. USA is the most complicated, frustrating, and exhausting country of the world. Every thing in this damned country is complicated. even joining a gym is complicated in this damned country. The other day i was gonna join a weight-training gym, and the paper work that you have to fill it's more exhausting than even the training itself. After all the shitty questions that they ask you, even the color of your piss, etc. i decided not to join the health center. Instead i bought an exercise home gym and decided to exercise at my home, where nobody can bother me, you know how much we hate that social interaction thing.

Hahaha, i say this to explain how complicated is USA, how hard is this country, even the rock artist Jim Morrison from The Doors in the movie The Doors said:

"They got a category for every thing." -Jim Morrison

And then he got tired of US imperialism and moved to France


This shows you how evil, negative, hard and complex is the USA, every thing in USA is wrong, the whole country should be overthrown and start a new legal, political, economic, social system, with less regulations, less laws, less codes, and an easier way of life

marxist_god

[marxist_god]

Originally posted by Labor Shall [email protected] 25, 2007 04:32 am
Most Americans are apolitical. If you look at elections, the turn-out is shockingly low. There are complicated registration procedures, barriers that are restrictive to voters who have incomes that fall below the median, and the factor of not even feeling that your vote counts contributes to the drift from electoral politics.

As far as the popularity of 'socialism' is concerned, you would discover that working class households support abortion rights, oppose the imperialist wars in Iraq, think that the economy is doing either 'fairly badly' or 'very badly', do not have confidence in the government, and consider healthcare to be a leading national priority.

The popularity of canidates is exaggerated - the 'leading' that an individual canidate might have in the polls is certainly not representative of popular opinion.


Hi, i guess you are right, most americans and most people in other countries as well, are socialists really, the only people, with antichristian, egocentric, immoral, evil, free market mentality are people who own businesses, any business turns a person into an egocentric, antisocial human being. This is why Jesus Christ said:

"It is easier for a camel to pass thru a needle, than it is for a capitalist to enter into the kingdom of God." -Jesus Christ


And this is true. Note that the 'Kingdom of God', is the kingdom of God on earth, which is anarchist-communism really, but that's in the far future, we still gotta pass thru state-socialism


marxist_god