Opportunity in a Capitalist Society

[Eleftherios]

Comrades, how would you respond to this comment made by a friend of mine who lives in America?

people that barely make enough to live on DO have equal chance in this society to prosper; don't ever say they dont. why are we the most egalitarian country? why do we offer welfare and basically free education to those who need it? it's the people who don't want to make anything of themselves, that would rather sit around and do drugs and shoot at one another that are unable to succeed. and why? because of their mindset. they don't want better. believe me, there are enough things offered to poor people by our excellent welfare program (accept for medical care) that would enable them to succeed. it's just that they don't take it, and then they complain about not being equal because they're poor. the only thing that makes them unequal to richer ppl is how much then need to work to get to the top.

Note: The views expressed above are not mine

[Psy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 01:46 am
Comrades, how would you respond to this comment made by a friend of mine who lives in America?

people that barely make enough to live on DO have equal chance in this society to prosper; don't ever say they dont. why are we the most egalitarian country? why do we offer welfare and basically free education to those who need it? it's the people who don't want to make anything of themselves, that would rather sit around and do drugs and shoot at one another that are unable to succeed. and why? because of their mindset. they don't want better. believe me, there are enough things offered to poor people by our excellent welfare program (accept for medical care) that would enable them to succeed. it's just that they don't take it, and then they complain about not being equal because they're poor. the only thing that makes them unequal to richer ppl is how much then need to work to get to the top.

Note: The views expressed above are not mine
It boils down to power and property. Unless you are a Luddite and vision a far more simpler economy were everyone is a producer, then the ownership of production means those that owns the productive forces is going to have power over those that work it, this is due to it being impossible to equally divide production up to amoung everyone (again unless you are Luddite and want to have a simple de-industrialized economy). So even if we are to assume there is a equal chance in this society to prosper it doesn't change the class relations were those that fail to make it to the capitalist class are exploited by the capitalist class.

Of course there is not a equal chance in this society for everyone to prosper, most startups fail due to not having capital and being crushed by established capitalists, this is because the more capital one has the more power they have in society, a billionaire has more opportunities to accumulate even more wealth then a small shop owner.

[spartan]

There is never enough money to go around for everyone in a Capitalist society.

The fact is there will always have to be a janitor or a groundskeeper no matter what there ambitions may be.

[Eleftherios]

OK, let me play the devil's advocate for a moment.


There is never enough money to go around for everyone in a Capitalist society.

The fact is there will always have to be a janitor or a groundskeeper no matter what there ambitions may be.

But how will it be different in a Socialist society?

[spartan]

But how will it be different in a Socialist society?
Well in a Communist society there is no money but as we are talking about Socialism any profit made is shared out equally.

[Orange Juche]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 02:30 pm

There is never enough money to go around for everyone in a Capitalist society.

The fact is there will always have to be a janitor or a groundskeeper no matter what there ambitions may be.

But how will it be different in a Socialist society?
What is so lowly about those professions? Janitors are pivotal for a society that wishes to be sanitary to any degree.

There is enough money to go around in a capitalist society, its just that that capitalism allows for that money/wealth to be distributed to obscene proportions. Its capitalism that creates a situation where there isn't enough money "going around.". Its capitalism that is the problem, in that argument.

[Orange Juche]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 09:46 pm
people that barely make enough to live on DO have equal chance in this society to prosper; don't ever say they dont. why are we the most egalitarian country? why do we offer welfare and basically free education to those who need it? it's the people who don't want to make anything of themselves, that would rather sit around and do drugs and shoot at one another that are unable to succeed. and why? because of their mindset. they don't want better. believe me, there are enough things offered to poor people by our excellent welfare program (accept for medical care) that would enable them to succeed. it's just that they don't take it, and then they complain about not being equal because they're poor. the only thing that makes them unequal to richer ppl is how much then need to work to get to the top.

Note: The views expressed above are not mine
people that barely make enough to live on DO have equal chance in this society to prosper; don't ever say they dont.

They don't. If someone honestly tries to say that an extremely poor black teenager from a ghetto, whose school is decaying and offers them no reasonable opportunity, had an "equal chance to prosper" as an upper-middle class white teenager in a high quality public school, they're fucking insane. Money is what creates opportunity, in modern society. And wealth is certainly not in a place where "equal opportunity" exists.



why are we the most egalitarian country? why do we offer welfare and basically free education to those who need it?

What the fuck? Refer them to France or Sweden, or any of those other more "progressive" welfare-state nations. Shit, the United States has over FORTY MILLION people without ANY healthcare. The "welfare" of those people isn't all that great. Of all the industrialized nations, the United States is the least egalitarian, and is far from it in general. This person you are talking to obviously has no clue as to what the hell they are talking about.



and why? because of their mindset. they don't want better.

Thats just plain ignorant. How many people actually want to be drug addicts and brought into a violent, gang environment? The question is to how these conditions are created. Those things are rooted in poverty and strife, upon evaluation. People don't want to lead shit, violent lives. This person you talk to is obviously entirely fucking clueless as to reality.



it's just that they don't take it, and then they complain about not being equal because they're poor.

Ask a single mother trying to feed her kids who works crazy hours, gets government assistance, and still struggles to survive, about this shit.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

I didn't read one thing in that paragraph that was correct. Libertarian brain drain.

[dannthraxxx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 12:27 am
There is never enough money to go around for everyone in a Capitalist society.

The fact is there will always have to be a janitor or a groundskeeper no matter what there ambitions may be.
I have to disagree. There is money to go around, it's only paper. The quote the guy posted is true.


And what's wrong with being a janitor or a groundskeeper? The work has to be done, so why not do it? Have you ever looked at the cleaning industry? There's big money in it, why? Because no one wants to do it.


People are just lazy. I am a communist, but I dont believe in a revolution. I believe in evolution. And right now, I highly doubt that we will ever see a "working" communist economy, atleast not in our lifetime, for the simple fact that people just do not care and not o nly that, people are lazy. No one is willing to "share" work. If it's left up to most people today, no progress or production at all would get accomplished, period. I really dislike capitalism, but capitalism completely suites our world today, complete chaos.


Keep dreaming.

[spartan]

And what's wrong with being a janitor or a groundskeeper? The work has to be done, so why not do it? Have you ever looked at the cleaning industry? There's big money in it, why? Because no one wants to do it.
I wasnt attacking those professions (I am myself thinking of becoming a groundskeeper) its just that those jobs are, rightly or wrongly, seen as low paying and undesirable (But ultimately necessary).

[Dimentio]

Enough food for 12 billion people is produced each year. There is six point six billion people on the planet, and yet, 800 million starves each year, and 2 billion goes hungry to bed. Guess how much that is wasted?

[VukBZ2005]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 05:06 pm
I am a communist, but I dont believe in a revolution. I believe in evolution. And right now, I highly doubt that we will ever see a "working" communist economy, atleast not in our lifetime, for the simple fact that people just do not care and not o nly that, people are lazy. No one is willing to "share" work. If it's left up to most people today, no progress or production at all would get accomplished, period. I really dislike capitalism, but capitalism completely suites our world today, complete chaos.


Keep dreaming.
If you were being realistic, instead of being idealistic, you would know that every society that was based on a particular mode of production and that came before this one, were forcibly and violently overthrown and replaced with new modes of production that led to developments that advanced human civilization to the period of time that we both are presently in. Therefore, it has to be concluded that Capitalism must be ended in the same fashion. Just because it seems like working class revolution is not here now, it does not mean that it would not come at some other period; we have to be involved and work with the material circumstances that are present in order to make working class revolution a reality.

If you continue to insist that you do not believe in working class revolution, then you are not a real Communist at all. So, it is you that has be told, "Keep dreaming".

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 01:46 am
Comrades, how would you respond to this comment made by a friend of mine who lives in America?

people that barely make enough to live on DO have equal chance in this society to prosper; don't ever say they dont. why are we the most egalitarian country? why do we offer welfare and basically free education to those who need it? it's the people who don't want to make anything of themselves, that would rather sit around and do drugs and shoot at one another that are unable to succeed. and why? because of their mindset. they don't want better. believe me, there are enough things offered to poor people by our excellent welfare program (accept for medical care) that would enable them to succeed. it's just that they don't take it, and then they complain about not being equal because they're poor. the only thing that makes them unequal to richer ppl is how much then need to work to get to the top.

Note: The views expressed above are not mine
Sit around? Do drugs? And Shoot one another?

While that maybe a problem in our innercities, there are many poor people who try and try and try and get nowhere. I've known people who didn't just sit around and do drugs. Guess what the elitist ruling class will always find another way to keep their wealth in their own greedy hands.

[mikelepore]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 01:46 am
Comrades, how would you respond to this comment made by a friend of mine who lives in America?

Tell your friend to write out a budget for raising a family of four on a salary of $7 per hour. Don't forget to deduct at least $2000 per month for the mortgage, town taxes and heating oil. Don't forget to put a similar amount into savings to send the children to college. And set aside a similar amount to sustain yourself during old age, since employers are steadily doing away with pension programs. Let's see that budget.

[Marsella]

Originally posted by mikelepore+December 24, 2007 07:04 pm--> (mikelepore @ December 24, 2007 07:04 pm)
[email protected] 21, 2007 01:46 am
Comrades, how would you respond to this comment made by a friend of mine who lives in America?

Tell your friend to write out a budget for raising a family of four on a salary of $7 per hour. Don't forget to deduct at least $2000 per month for the mortgage, town taxes and heating oil. Don't forget to put a similar amount into savings to send the children to college. And set aside a similar amount to sustain yourself during old age, since employers are steadily doing away with pension programs. Let's see that budget. [/b]
My maths isn't exactly the best comrade, but here goes:

7 x 50 (average hours worked per week) = 350 x 4 = $1400 per month.

That means a family earning that wage would be at least -600 per month (after the deduction of your $2000).

:o

[mikelepore]

That's right, to make a budget for reasonable expenses will usually work out to show a net loss. That result tells us how a low income family survives in the U.S: you don't own a home, you don't save anything for your children's education, you don't save anything for your old age, you don't go on any vacations, you just hope that you won't be informed that you need surgery to save your life. So there's your budget to plan your family finances: go without, go without, go without, and go without. That is what loyal and faithful Americans usually call "our middle-class affluence." This -- in the age of automotion and robots! That's the best capitalism can do.

Mike Lepore (I reside in a rural area near New York City)

[Dimentio]

The problem is not that capitalism is bad, but that it is not good enough.

[Orange Juche]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 07:37 pm
Enough food for 12 billion people is produced each year. There is six point six billion people on the planet, and yet, 800 million starves each year, and 2 billion goes hungry to bed. Guess how much that is wasted?
Just out of curiosity, where did you get that information? I don't question thats true, I'm just curious, as I might like to cite that elsewhere.

[Raúl Duke]

One. The person argues and puts blames on people. The problem with this is that their are factors that are not under their control that affect them. Also, he claims that all they do is "shoot up", etc. Has he seen every poor person? (This is just middle class myths, I heard many of them.)

Two. What does he mean by equality (I see that he sometimes mixes them with 2 definitions)? See, it all depends on one's perspective. If one sees that class society exists that one can reason there's no equality. In terms of "opportunity", one major inequality is the amount of resources. Does a poor person have the same amount of resources as that of a rich person? One is more endowed to start a business (hell, a rich person can start a corporation. A "poor person" can barely get a small business off the ground. Also, due to the nature of modern capitalism in the US these days, these small business suffer major competition, etc from wholesale corporations like wall mart, etc.), among other endeavors.
True, we might have the SBA loans, etc but even with this material incentive there's probably a decline in small businesses as we speak. (The real question: why?) Of course, he would argue because they're "lazy and always shootin up" but thats not a real argument (at least not to a marxist :P) because it has no material basis.

[bobroberts]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 01:46 am
Comrades, how would you respond to this comment made by a friend of mine who lives in America?

people that barely make enough to live on DO have equal chance in this society to prosper; don't ever say they dont. why are we the most egalitarian country? why do we offer welfare and basically free education to those who need it? it's the people who don't want to make anything of themselves, that would rather sit around and do drugs and shoot at one another that are unable to succeed. and why? because of their mindset. they don't want better. believe me, there are enough things offered to poor people by our excellent welfare program (accept for medical care) that would enable them to succeed. it's just that they don't take it, and then they complain about not being equal because they're poor. the only thing that makes them unequal to richer ppl is how much then need to work to get to the top.

Note: The views expressed above are not mine
Does your friend happen to be a young, white, and healthy male whose never had to use the "services" for the poor that he praises?

[Eleftherios]

Does your friend happen to be a young, white, and healthy male whose never had to use the "services" for the poor that he praises?

Haha, female, actually, but the rest is true

[MT5678]

This is interesting. On one hand, capitalist economic textbooks hold that people in society are rational consumers of economic products who make the best decisions given their circumstances. But the Horatio Algers myth that your friend talks about says that the poor consumers are bums.

Doublethink, anyone?