Debating libertarian jerks

[SouthernBelle82]

So what has been y'alls experience in debating libertarians? I've found once you start to put up a fight and argue with them they turn into holier than thou jerks. They also love to rewrite history and claim the 1964 Civil Rights Act wasn't needed for example and society will do fine without the federal government. So what's ya'lls experience?

[bootleg42]

Naom Chomsky's works DOMINATES all those free-market libertarian freaks. Just find videos of that on you tube or google for his works on it. Believe me, I've used a ton of Chomsky material on those free-market libertarians and they fall back.

[SouthernBelle82]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 02:59 am
Naom Chomsky's works DOMINATES all those free-market libertarian freaks. Just find videos of that on you tube or google for his works on it. Believe me, I've used a ton of Chomsky material on those free-market libertarians and they fall back.
Oh thanks for that. I'll do a google search and find some materials for the next time I debate them. They temporarily put my posting privilages on hold so go figure. But during this time I can be doing that. What's been your experience with using Chomsky?

[Great Helmsman]

http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/libertarian.html
this has been posted before, but it might help.

[SouthernBelle82]

Originally posted by Great Helm[email protected] 19, 2007 05:36 am
http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/libertarian.html
this has been posted before, but it might help.
Thanks for the link. I'll keep it and am reading through it now. And yea they talk a lot about freedom and liberty but anyone with an opposing view point they look down on you and say you're mentally ill or brainwashed. :rolleyes: That's what they did to me even before they even knew I was a socialist.

[mikelepore]

I enjoy arguing with them because, despite the differences between us, at least they want to talk about: What basic principles do various people believe in? What type of political or economic systems would be the best? How do we know when our problems are the symptoms of the system being basically wrong? Most people don't think in those terms at all. While I feel that the so-called libertarians have all the wrong answers, their approach of starting with some kind of set of principles makes a conversation possible.

[Colonello Buendia]

I generally just ask them "have you read the communist manifesto?" if they answer no I tell them to go read it before arguing, some of them don't even know of Marx so I simply hit them with that, if it goes theoretical then I just make my arguments as waterproof as possible

[peaccenicked]

There was a time when OI was swamped by libertarians. I think I posted 10 or more anti Rand websites or spoofs on her politics. Dont argue with them, they see human solidarity as a weakness, to me that is latent fascism at least. libertarianism is a political cult for robots.

[Coggeh]

Ah the mutant capitalists , economics is not my strong point and since alot of them are socially liberal its quite hard sometimes . I'd agree with the other posts thought Chomsky is great for debating these jerks . Although when reading Chomsky you have to read what he says 6times to take it in because its so incredibly boring but still very interesting if your pushed to read it i suppose :)

[Enragé]

just say, and explain how (pretty easy to do), that if you take away the state the most efficient company will come out on top, and the most efficient will be that which pays its employees the least, while selling for the highest possible price, and is most ruthless in eliminating competition in any possible way, including force (who's to stop 'em?) and will thus in practice construct a new state (state in its most basic is an armed body of men), that is the state controlled by that company (or possibly conglomerate of companies)

The entire debate will be about if this would really happen, but really, it cant really not happen (since profit is THE goal in capitalism, and who cares how you get to it?)

[lvleph]

I argue with my libertarian friend all the time, but I wouldn't be able to convince him that Anarchism is better, because he is also a Satanist. He firmly believes in Social Darwinism and all that.

[Zurdito]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 06:39 am
There was a time when OI was swamped by libertarians. I think I posted 10 or more anti Rand websites or spoofs on her politics. Dont argue with them, they see human solidarity as a weakness, to me that is latent fascism at least. libertarianism is a political cult for robots.
basically, true :)

[cyu]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 07:07 am
I argue with my libertarian friend all the time, but I wouldn't be able to convince him that Anarchism is better, because he is also a Satanist. He firmly believes in Social Darwinism and all that.
Quoting from http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/SatObj.html -

"Let me conclude this brief overview by adding that Satanism has far more in common with Objectivism than with any other religion or philosophy. Objectivists endorse reason, selfishness, greed and atheism."

Funny stuff. I once posted this to a Libertarian forum and they quickly deleted it.

[lvleph]

Originally posted by cyu+December 20, 2007 12:55 pm--> (cyu @ December 20, 2007 12:55 pm)
[email protected] 20, 2007 07:07 am
I argue with my libertarian friend all the time, but I wouldn't be able to convince him that Anarchism is better, because he is also a Satanist. He firmly believes in Social Darwinism and all that.
Quoting from http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/SatObj.html -

"Let me conclude this brief overview by adding that Satanism has far more in common with Objectivism than with any other religion or philosophy. Objectivists endorse reason, selfishness, greed and atheism."

Funny stuff. I once posted this to a Libertarian forum and they quickly deleted it. [/b]
Which is why he is a Libertarian. He is at least honest about it.

[bolshevik butcher]

This isn't intended as a snide comment, but what's the point in debating these people, from a political point of view it doesn't seem too worth while. Unless these people are potentailly winable to socialist ideas, or this argument is infront of some form of audience it doesn't seem worth your time which could be spent reading theory, news, speaking to those who could be won to socialist ideas etc.

[cyu]

Originally posted by bolshevik [email protected] 20, 2007 04:48 pm
This isn't intended as a snide comment, but what's the point in debating these people, from a political point of view it doesn't seem too worth while. Unless these people are potentailly winable to socialist ideas, or this argument is infront of some form of audience it doesn't seem worth your time which could be spent reading theory, news, speaking to those who could be won to socialist ideas etc.
Well said.

[Great Helmsman]

Originally posted by bolshevik [email protected] 20, 2007 11:48 pm
This isn't intended as a snide comment, but what's the point in debating these people, from a political point of view it doesn't seem too worth while. Unless these people are potentailly winable to socialist ideas, or this argument is infront of some form of audience it doesn't seem worth your time which could be spent reading theory, news, speaking to those who could be won to socialist ideas etc.
I agree with the sentiment, but I had libertarian-leanings once, and I know a few other politically insecure people who went from libertarianism to socialism.

[Psy]

I've been debating about police brutality and a libertarian sided with me till I used the IWW being harassed by police as an example (and explained the goal of the IWW) in which the libertarian showed a fascist view of how the police should act toward revolutionaries and have a glowing view of Franco.

Yhea I'm sure he is not a true libertarian but I think this is how a libertarian state would work, the state would have a hands off approach to the middle class and ruling class but be a police state when it comes to the common worker.

[SouthernBelle82]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 05:16 am
I've been debating about police brutality and a libertarian sided with me till I used the IWW being harassed by police as an example (and explained the goal of the IWW) in which the libertarian showed a fascist view of how the police should act toward revolutionaries and have a glowing view of Franco.

Yhea I'm sure he is not a true libertarian but I think this is how a libertarian state would work, the state would have a hands off approach to the middle class and ruling class but be a police state when it comes to the common worker.
Oh of course. That's how they always are. They're just for themselves. I've talked to maybe one or two libertarians who aren't that way however. Most of them are just parrots.

[Zurdito]

Originally posted by bolshevik [email protected] 20, 2007 11:48 pm
This isn't intended as a snide comment, but what's the point in debating these people, from a political point of view it doesn't seem too worth while. Unless these people are potentailly winable to socialist ideas, or this argument is infront of some form of audience it doesn't seem worth your time which could be spent reading theory, news, speaking to those who could be won to socialist ideas etc.
I was going to say the exact same thing when I read about the "libertarian satanist" - basically, one more loon. I mean, who could be more divorced from workers than that? Would we even want such people on our side if we could convince them? In fact I do see some such people taking an interest in marxism, and I really wish they wouldn't. Let the Randroids etc. fade into their own obscurity.

[Redscare102]

As an ex-libertarian, let me give you some advice: Attack capitalism, and show how heartless it is, OR... attack libertarians on issues like healthcare or wages. This is what pulled me out of it. You just need to show how cruel and heartless their positions are, and most will start to question their beliefs. Most libertarians have a conscience (though some don't)

You won't get anyone to IMMEDIATELY give up libertarianism that way. They'll go "LALALALA NOT LISTENING!!!" at first, but then, eventually, their conscience WILL creep up to them, and they'll start to question it. Eventually, they'll turn to the left.

[bootleg42]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 08:16 pm
As an ex-libertarian, let me give you some advice: Attack capitalism, and show how heartless it is, OR... attack libertarians on issues like healthcare or wages. This is what pulled me out of it. You just need to show how cruel and heartless their positions are, and most will start to question their beliefs. Most libertarians have a conscience (though some don't)

You won't get anyone to IMMEDIATELY give up libertarianism that way. They'll go "LALALALA NOT LISTENING!!!" at first, but then, eventually, their conscience WILL creep up to them, and they'll start to question it. Eventually, they'll turn to the left.
First, GREAT JOB from coming from right-wing libertarianism to revolutionary leftism. Remember, don't become dogmatic and question everything.

Second, GREAT advice about the healthcare issue. They seem to claim that as long as there is competition, the doctors will basically have to keep their prices low (ala market prise). I usually force them to give me an example. They say, basically, that someone would go and pay 30 dollars for a checkup and like 10-15 dollars for medicine, maybe a bit lower than 10. I'd say that there are plenty of people (for example inner city poor) who can't afford 30 dollars each visit. Also I ask of people who need the see the doctor multiple times a week. Many times they basically say that people will have motivation to keep themselves healthier and eat better and make better decisions so that they won't have to go to the doctor as much. At that point, I make them seem very not caring about other people.

Third, I'll repeat this because it's the best strategy to CONVERT them or to make them seem like pussies: Get them to start making the comments that the state is "bad", that it's "big brother" and that it's the "nanny". Get them to ask you, "do you want "big brother" to be on your back all the time?" Then just challenge them to eliminate the state all together. They either won't do it (proving that they're pussy) or they'll love the idea. Should they love or be interested, explain that anarchism or communism is for them.

Fourth: To those who say "don't bother debating them" I say bad thinking. Even if there is no chance of getting to them, others are listening. We need to make sure that libertarianism gets challenged so that others may see it's true nature.

[SouthernBelle82]

Originally posted by bootleg42+December 22, 2007 08:43 pm--> (bootleg42 @ December 22, 2007 08:43 pm)
[email protected] 22, 2007 08:16 pm
As an ex-libertarian, let me give you some advice: Attack capitalism, and show how heartless it is, OR... attack libertarians on issues like healthcare or wages. This is what pulled me out of it. You just need to show how cruel and heartless their positions are, and most will start to question their beliefs. Most libertarians have a conscience (though some don't)

You won't get anyone to IMMEDIATELY give up libertarianism that way. They'll go "LALALALA NOT LISTENING!!!" at first, but then, eventually, their conscience WILL creep up to them, and they'll start to question it. Eventually, they'll turn to the left.
First, GREAT JOB from coming from right-wing libertarianism to revolutionary leftism. Remember, don't become dogmatic and question everything.

Second, GREAT advice about the healthcare issue. They seem to claim that as long as there is competition, the doctors will basically have to keep their prices low (ala market prise). I usually force them to give me an example. They say, basically, that someone would go and pay 30 dollars for a checkup and like 10-15 dollars for medicine, maybe a bit lower than 10. I'd say that there are plenty of people (for example inner city poor) who can't afford 30 dollars each visit. Also I ask of people who need the see the doctor multiple times a week. Many times they basically say that people will have motivation to keep themselves healthier and eat better and make better decisions so that they won't have to go to the doctor as much. At that point, I make them seem very not caring about other people.

Third, I'll repeat this because it's the best strategy to CONVERT them or to make them seem like pussies: Get them to start making the comments that the state is "bad", that it's "big brother" and that it's the "nanny". Get them to ask you, "do you want "big brother" to be on your back all the time?" Then just challenge them to eliminate the state all together. They either won't do it (proving that they're pussy) or they'll love the idea. Should they love or be interested, explain that anarchism or communism is for them.

Fourth: To those who say "don't bother debating them" I say bad thinking. Even if there is no chance of getting to them, others are listening. We need to make sure that libertarianism gets challenged so that others may see it's true nature. [/b]
I agree with everything you said. Also in Michael Moore's "Sicko" movie he talks to one doctor (I forgot which country) who is employed by the government and he said he gets paid MORE money when people come in and are healthy etc. Everyone should watch that movie who hasn't. It seems to me they only like the idea of having the state etc. when it's them in control for the most part.

[La Comédie Noire]

I've noticed something very funny about Libretarians. They are all fat, well off, white men.

They are a perfect example of people being brain washed by the Capitalist system. They don't realize the social nature of production or how much they depend on other people.

They don't seem to make the connection that their clothes, food, and entertainment are all produced by other human beings with needs too.