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Trotsky's Ghost
17th December 2007, 06:01
This is an aspect of Marxist theory I always took for granted, but a debate with a friend earlier tonight led me to checking out some numbers and assuming I've interpreted them right, some interesting/depressing results. That's assuming I'm interpreting them right, which would be foolish to assume because I'm mathematically challenged and don't happen to speak the esoteric tongue of economics exceedingly well. So I'm appealling to all you smart people on these forums to help me make sense of this stuff. Don't laugh if my questions are stupid. I am stupid. When it comes to this stuff that is.


Per capita GWP also increased in 2006, to $9,975.17 This is a growth of 2.7 percentless than total GWP growth because world population increased by 77 million people.18 Yet GWP per capita does not reflect the vast disparity in GDP per personeven when these figures are in purchasing power parity terms. In the United States GDP is $43,356 per person and in Japan it is $31,924, for example, while in China the figure is $8,005 and in India it is $3,546.19

Does this mean that under socialism I'll be making $9,975.17 a year?


Clearly, economic priorities must change, as over 60 percent of ecosystem services are being degraded or used unsustainably.22 The ecological footprint of global societya measurement that calculates the amount of land and sea area needed to produce resources, absorb wastes, and provide space for infrastructure, such as roads and buildingsis also increasing each year, with a jump of 2.5 percent in 2003.23 (See Figure 3.)

This most recent measurement shows that humans currently use the resources of 1.25 Earths and are thus depleting the ecological capital on which future populations will depend.24 As economic growth accelerates in both highincome and low-income countries, so does the depletion of ecological capital. Indeed, at the current consumption levels of high-income countries, the world could only sustainably support 1.75 billion people, not the 6.5 billion living on Earth today.

That doesn't sound good at all...Does this mean that even if I am making $9,975.17 a year Earth is still royally fucked?

The full article can be found here: http://www.worldwatch.org/node/5456

Lynx
19th December 2007, 01:27
In poorer countries $9,975.17 would go a long way!
The high energy lifestyle of the wealthier countries is not sustainable worldwide. There are physical limits to available energy and bottlenecks in energy supply.

JoePedo
11th January 2008, 10:20
Does this mean that under socialism I'll be making $9,975.17 a year?


Not neccisarily.

There's a few things that capitalist philosophers got somewhat right. One of them is the notion that wealth is created by labor - the computer you're reading this on is, in terms of direct utility, of greater processing power than the bucket of sand it used to be.

The other is that the "financial value" of something is simply what two people agree to transact that item for. Money, for instance, has no intrinsic value. Everything else merely has the value of its direct utility.

This means, among other things, that if you are "making" $9,975.17 per year, and I'm dumb enough to sell you a pound of gold for ten cents... you're still "making" $9,975.17 per year... but, you're also "making" about a hundred thousand pounds of gold a year. If the barter value of gold is unchanged, your income of "$9,975.17" is identical to a multibillionaire on the current economic status of transaction.

Conversely, if the selling price of a television is a hundred bucks, and you make (no quotes) fifty televisions, you have "made" about five thousand dollars. If you make fifty thousand televisions, but the price of a television drops to $0.01 a peice, you're still only "making" the same amount... but you're manufacturing a thousand times as much wealth. 'n if a television still goes at the rate of twenty televisions to the automobile, you could end up "making" less money and having more wealth.

The key to all this is that, well... money is worthless, and monetary economics is an oddly self-sustaining illusion with no real-world basis whatsoever. This may sound like a joke. It is, in fact, deadly serious. A US dollar bill has no more intrinsic value than any other piece of paper of the same size, has no implicit guarantee of being traded for anything, no intrinsic worth, and no particular use. Seriously... trip out on it a while 'till you get it... it's a trip. The shit is meaningless. Hollow. Nothing.

The reason the number you read is so small is because someone in the third world is doing for $0.01 what someone in the US would demand $10 to do. Ergo, the artificial wealth of the laborer is decreased to about the number you read. The production of real wealth, otoh, is the same - the third-world laborer produces the exact same amount as the first-world laborer.

"The invisible hand of Adam Smith" being not wholly inaccurate, the net effect tends to be that those $10 jobs in the first world dry up and artificial wealth starts reflecting real wealth just a little. Unfortunately for... most of humanity, actually... there's just a wee bit of a lag in the imaginary catching up to the real world, during which time, the US as a whole ends up starving due to massive unemployment, the third world ends up starving due to insufficient wages, and nobody is happy... but, the actual wealth - the goods and services produced - generally do not increase or decrease in response to fluctuations in imaginary wealth.

If you want to anticipate real-world outcomes, you will have to look at real-world foundations. The average starving peasant farmer has no problems in undertaking the labor to whip up a DVD player one day, a personal computer the next, and maybe spend a few weeks on a car; while personal education may be a barrier to wealth (even though I'm guessing most people in the first world would have no better chance making their own DVD player from raw materials), there is wholly sufficient labor for someone in an impoverished fourth-world country to live an upper-middle-class or above first-world life. 'n since labor and its products are the actual wealth, and monetary commerce an imaginary system with no tangible value, looking at the capacity for the manufacture of real wealth, rather than an imaginary system which, at best, lags behind actual economics, should provide a more realistic view of the outcomes.

As to your second question... environmental catastrophe is mostly a result of laziness, and thusly, subject pretty much solely to human choice.

Cybercide
15th January 2008, 11:46
to the OP, why are you comparing Capitalist values of things to Marxist value of things?
It is redundent, because without capitalist profit making getting into every part of production things would be cheaper anyway.

also with the third world not getting fucked over, they would begin to produce more, thus the worlds production will be better and the number will be higher that 9k.

Dr Mindbender
15th January 2008, 12:27
what you fail to appreciate is that post revolution, items wont have the monetary value attached to them that they do now. In fact, the idea is to dispose of capital all together.

The idea is to do away with the attitude that one area of work is more valuable than another, so that there is no problem with each worker recieving an equal share of goods and services without the handover of money or currency.