Bolivia, or Bolivias?

[CheRev]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7144447.stm

Well what do you think of this? Not only is Santa Cruz looking for autonomy but also a few other regions. Is this a failure on Morales´ behalf or something that would have happened anyway. This trend of rich regions breaking away from the poor areas of a country so that they don´t have to share "their" wealth is both distgusting and blatently inhumane (in my opinion). Likewise for the Orinoco region in Venezuela who are looking for something similar. Do they want the other part(with most of the people) to starve.

Anyway, what are your thoughts? Is Bolivia heading towards civil war? I can´t see how it isn´t tbh, Morales can´t back down on this one.

[bootleg42]

I'm bolivian (though I was raised in the US too) but I can give you a little insight.

Santa Cruz is the white region of the country (with the overall country mostly mestizos and indigenous people and one city of black people, las yungas).

They've (Santa Cruz) always been right wing to the core and they are known for being racists to the core for more than half a century already. It's not Evo Morale's fault for this as they've been wanting to be their own country for more than 25 years already. Here is an example of the people in Santa Cruz:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeUK5TX_Urk&feature=related

Here is an example of the people of La Paz (or the other side of the country with mostly colored people):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy3TJxxjy6E

Notice how the people of Santa Cruz are whiter and they live in very nice conditions compared to La Paz.

Also look around youtube for videos made by the "Crucenos". You'll notice the HUGE difference between the two and you'll notice how racists many of the petty bourgeoisie/bourgeoisie Crucenos are.

Here is an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmVbs8-fwEo

In the beginning of that video, you'll notice how they try to make the indigenous people look like ruthless animals. They also call them miserables for protesting so much. If anyone understands spanish, you will understand and see how racist the people of that region are with that video. More videos you can just search.

There are a number of mestizos in Santa Cruz and poor workers but they support the whites because those white give them work and the workers don't want to go back to being peasants in the western part. They have been tricked into thinking that this autonomy is good for them. Still, they are outnumbered (in Santa Cruz) by the white racists.

So don't anyone think this wanting to separate is the fault of the current government or of any supposed "left" movement because they've been wanting to do this for a long time as they're racist.


EDIT: Here is a great movie on the subject. After seeing this movie, you will want to riot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NycGsSKgoY...related&search= (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NycGsSKgoY&mode=related&search=)

[Zurdito]

I wrote this a while ago:

The Bolivian elite have demonstrated the depths to which ruling classes will sink in order to keep their grip on resources and power: after years of claiming to be Bolivian patriots, they now want to split the country in two.

Bolivia’s left-wing government has its base in the city of La Paz and its working class suburbs. The city is Bolivia’s largest and has been the seat of government since 1898, but the right now demands the government move to the small city of Sucre. They hope to weaken Bolivia’s most militant working class region, where people are mostly of indigenous origin and were traditionally excluded from formal politics. Until 2006 that is, when Evo Morales of MAS became Bolivia’s first indigenous President.

The right responded not by making concessions and trying to hide their true nature, but through a campaign of sabotage and violence. They may just have dug their own grave.

Take Cochabamba; the province where workers resistance to the neo-liberal looting of Bolivia exploded into mass demonstrations against privatisation of the water supply, in 2000. Here, current Mayor Manfred Reyes Villa employs semi-fascist youth groups, made up of mainly wealthy students, to intimidate left-wing activists.

It’s even worse in resource rich lowland provinces such as Santa Cruz, where the population traditionally considers itself more “white” than the indigenous highlands. The elite have stoked up regionalist hatred of the government – based on racist stereotypes - among violent youths and the provincial security forces, who attack opponents; effectively the provinces poorest, most indigenous looking inhabitants, who also stand most to gain from MAS’s reforms. Provincial governor Ruben Costas leads the regional autonomy movement of Bolivia’s richest provinces; a strategy by the elites to resist wealth re-distribution.

Santa Cruz’s demands for absolute control of land, resources, the justice system, the police, and the army are effectively demands for independence. Apparently, if the bourgeoisie dislikes the results of an election strongly enough, it will simply try to break away from the country! (Note that before 2006, there was no serious autonomy movement in these provinces, and Bolivian “regional nationalism” was unheard of.)

Bolivia’s working class has shown it will not sit back and watch its country be torn apart by a sinister clique of landowners, politicians and oil and gas barons. They’ve come too far for that. Over a million people attended “national unity” demonstrations in support of the government against the separatists.

But this isn’t enough. The “national unity” strategy is failing. Morales thought that by weakening Bolivia’s Constituent Assembly through draconian restrictions, such as demanding it get a two-third majority for any resolution passed, he could appease the right. When Bolivian workers in Cochabamba set up a directly democratic commune to run their own affairs independent of the semi-fascist governor who was terrorising them, Morales thought that if he refused to recognise it, maybe the elite of that province would reciprocate by restricting some of their own “activists”. Some chance – they responded with further attacks. Morales also assured private oil and gas extractors that if they act “legally and in good faith”, they won’t see “their” assets privatised – yet he was elected on the back of a demand for nationalisation of key resources.

These betrayals can only lead to loss of momentum by the workers. The very ownership of Bolvia’s resources by capitalist parasites is what gives them the power to blackmail anyone who asks for a fairer society. As long as the old order still has that control, they can suffer setbacks in times of reform, but then re-emerge when reformist movements inevitably fade out. Then, they will consolidate their position once more until they get as complacent as they were when they were destroying Bolivia’s meagre social security and public services in the 1990’s (and the whole cycle starts again). And as any Bolivian worker will tell you, capitalists certainly didn’t act “legally” or “in good faith” back then, or at any other time in Bolivia’s history.

As Bolivia’s vicious exploiting class has made clear, the only flag the capitalists salute is profit. Once the Bolivian flag was no longer synonymous with US dollars, these pseudo-patriots had no use for it. The over-reactions of the national elite and the conciliatory weasel words of international capitalism to MAS’s reforms don’t show capitalists strength, but betray the fear that comes from knowing they are defending the indefensible and confronting the majority. The time for patriotism and “unity” has passed, and Bolivian workers must push for further gains while they have momentum. They must also be armed so they can defend themselves from the inevitable repression. Bolivia is a class war in the making and the MAS reformists must decide which side they are on.

[Herman]

This trend of rich regions breaking away from the poor areas of a country so that they don´t have to share "their" wealth is both distgusting and blatently inhumane (in my opinion). Likewise for the Orinoco region in Venezuela who are looking for something similar. Do they want the other part(with most of the people) to starve.

You've hit the nail.

The oligarchy will do anything to try to sabotage Evo Morales' and his policies.

[CheRev]

bootleg42: I know what you´re saying, I´ve been to Santa Cruz and La Paz and the difference between the lives of these two sets of people is astonishing, well in the middle class at least, there was still a lot of poverty there. Unfortunately, these two groups of ´workers´are being pitted against each other by the power hungry and the rich (not sure if there´s a difference), as Zurdito mentions above. The usual story, I guess.

Well if there´s blood on anyones hands after this, it´s the elite of Santa Cruz. I presume there´s a lot of US support for this in the back-ground as well. I found it surprising that a city of Santa Cruz´s size had daily flights to Miami, maybe that explains something of who is behind this.

[RevSouth]

Anyone know where the military's allegiance lies?

[cyu]

I think there's an easy solution to the problem. One that should have been done as soon as the Morales came into power: democratize the media. Put control over the messages people hear either in the hands of the community or the employees instead of the wealthy investors. The rest of the revolution will then follow naturally.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 06:29 pm
I think there's an easy solution to the problem. One that should have been done as soon as the Morales came into power: democratize the media. Put control over the messages people hear either in the hands of the community or the employees instead of the wealthy investors. The rest of the revolution will then follow naturally.
great point. why do fucking people do this?

[bootleg42]

There is a problem.

There are plenty of revolutionary elements inside MAS but this seems to be more of a movement that just aims to put the campesinos to work and to create a proletariat (which almost doesn't exist in most of the country, other than Santa Cruz) in the non developed areas (La Paz, Sucre, Oruro, Potosi, etc.).

And this makes sense. How are you going to start a true socialist movement without an actual proletariat???? There needs to be development and a working class developed first before any true socialist movement takes place in Bolivia. This could be the reason why Alvaro Garcia (a marxist and current vice president), speaks of "Capitalismo Andino" or Ande Capitalism. He wants to create development that can bring resources into the country, but not in the way the past free-market policies have done.

http://www.marxist.com/bolivia-on-the-brink131207.htm

That article is a good read. A quote from it:


Let me give a practical example. It gets cold here at night at 3,600 metres and I have summer clothes. Yesterday, I went out to buy a coat in one of the many stalls that are run by indigenous people, mainly Aymara. During the transaction there was obviously a conversation along the lines of who are you, where are you from, what are you doing here, etc. When I explained that I was not here as a tourist but to find out what MAS was doing and what people thought of socialism, the old lady in the corner, one out of 4 women on the stall, asked me point blank, "What is socialism?" I was taken aback because here was a natural supporter of Morales, yet the MAS movement at a grass roots level has done very little to raise the level of political understanding of core supporters, never mind actually carry out policies that would benefit these core supporters and get their children off the streets and into schools.

The lady explained that she and many others could not read nor write, so any kind of political "socialisation" (the term used here to sell the new constitution) would have to take place at a level that people can understand - verbal, pictures, DVD, etc and that would mean that all the grassroots organisations of the MAS would have to be mobilised to go out and win others to the vote.

I wish MAS luck because they'll need to develop the current peasant class and turn them into proletariat (with working rights). Then, and only then, can true socialist revolution take place AND SUCCEED.

[Zurdito]

I wish MAS luck because they'll need to develop the current peasant class and turn them into proletariat

Do you think MAS have the will or capability to do that?

[Faux Real]

Originally posted by R_P_A_S+December 19, 2007 10:39 am--> (R_P_A_S @ December 19, 2007 10:39 am)
[email protected] 19, 2007 06:29 pm
I think there's an easy solution to the problem. One that should have been done as soon as the Morales came into power: democratize the media. Put control over the messages people hear either in the hands of the community or the employees instead of the wealthy investors. The rest of the revolution will then follow naturally.
great point. why do[n't(?)] fucking people do this? [/b]
Morales has been taking a soft reformist stance as opposed to the Bolivarians aggressiveness, and may or may not have the backing that Chavez does with the Venezuelan military which could also be a factor.

The thought of the oil-rich part of the country seceding is worrisome. Hopefully this conflict will militarize the peasants and workers in the northern part of the country and present a threat to the wealthy regions.

[bootleg42]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 08:24 am

I wish MAS luck because they'll need to develop the current peasant class and turn them into proletariat

Do you think MAS have the will or capability to do that?
Honestly I hope so, but it difficult to tell.

For one, MOST of MAS has been influenced by the humanist parties of latin america. Humanist parties promote non-violence and are very idealist and since the right-wingers in Santa Cruz love being violent, it's going to be hard defending any project Evo or MAS might have to create a proletariat class. Evo himself seems able and willing to create a working class, as he's gained money for the country in ways no other president has been able to do in the last 60 years. But the question is will he have the means to defend it??? Read the article I posted. Even the MAS deputies have admitted that they don't really know what to do.

Alvaro Garcia Linera (the vice president) has seemed to be sticking to the science of socialism, as his speeches and moves has indicated that his only concern is to get those peasants into the working class and create industry in a way that the peasants won't suffer as much.

This is probably the reason why he (along with Evo) has tried to reach out to the eastern side, giving in to some demands they made. They're trying to prevent violence and trying to develop the extremely undeveloped places (and if anyone's been there, you'd know what I mean). With violence comes a pause in any advancement for the indigenous, mestizo, and black populations in the western side and a pause to everything progressive.

I have faith in Evo and knowing the radical elements in Bolivia (which I personally know plenty about), the peasants will be ready to defend this progression.

At least, on the good side, if Santa Cruz or any of the elite try to get rid of Evo in a coup of some sort, Hugo Chavez has promised that he'll send troops in Bolivia to undo whatever the elites does. This is vital as Chavez's army surpasses anything the elite would throw at Evo and Chavez is loved by the poor in the country and would back him.