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oujiQualm
13th December 2007, 00:58
Hi. Recently I posted a thread about 9/11 and it was moved to chit chat and I was told that it qualified as such because it was "conspiracy theory"

To me this raises serious questions.

How do we define "conspiracy thoery"? I mean as something other than a term of disparagement as it is used by the bourgeois media, and foundation funded left gatekeeping magazines like The Nation.

I think this is an important question, because writers on the "left" like Chomsky and Cockburn have worked hard to create a dichotomy between structuralist analysis and events like the JFK assassination which they dismiss as "conspiracy theory" not worth even reading one book about. And they havn't.

I have been reading history for about thirty years. I see this dichotomy as an artificial one, and I think its time we debate its validity.

Of course this does not imply that there are some dumb "conspiracy theories" out there. The point is the term is so dismissive as to mean everything and nothing Yet, it works on so many leftists like a pavlovian charm. Why?

Dimentio
13th December 2007, 01:03
Maybe because leftists don't want to be associated with Jones or Icke?

oujiQualm
13th December 2007, 01:09
Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 01:02 am
Maybe because leftists don't want to be associated with Jones or Icke?
I dont want to be associated with Jones either and I have never heard of the other guy. It sure sounds like SOMEONE OR PERHAPS SOME AGENCY has associted questioning the official 9/11 lie with "right wing movement" in your mind. Undoubtedly there is an attempt to do just that right now.

What has that to do with what actually happened on 9/11 and its role as the keystone myth of US Corporate imperialism?

Bad Grrrl Agro
13th December 2007, 01:22
9-11 was an attack on america that was launched by Al Gore and the Playboy Bunnies.

See I can be almost as ridiculous as Alex Jones if I put my mind to it!

oujiQualm
13th December 2007, 01:27
Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 01:21 am
9-11 was an attack on america that was launched by Al Gore and the Playboy Bunnies.

See I can be almost as ridiculous as Alex Jones if I put my mind to it!
Again we note that someone takes doubting the official story of 9-11 as equalling the acceptance of Aex Jones views. This is very new and very interesting, as far as what it suggest about US disinformation campaigns.

They seem to be working quite well.

Bad Grrrl Agro
13th December 2007, 02:06
And don't forget that Stalin and Gandhi secretly came back to life to conspire to build a statue of Pol Pot in New Jersey

oujiQualm
13th December 2007, 02:24
Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 02:05 am
And don't forget that Stalin and Gandhi secretly came back to life to conspire to build a statue of Pol Pot in New Jersey
That took a lot of reading and knowlege of history.

Please note that the intial post was not excusively about 9/11 but rather was an interrogation of the conceptual oppsotions between "history" and "conspiracy theory" as mediated by the bourgeois media at this point in late capitalism.

Ill probably take the blame for all the eleven year old namecalling anyway though, because the conditioning seems prety ingrained. My we have a lot of critical thinkers here :D

Bad Grrrl Agro
13th December 2007, 03:47
Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 02:23 am
Ill probably take the blame for all the eleven year old namecalling anyway though, because the conditioning seems prety ingrained. My we have a lot of critical thinkers here :D
Oh the martyrdom. :D

Wait who called who an eleven year old? Your seemingly incoherent language is too confusing.

Philosophical Materialist
13th December 2007, 12:33
What differentiates "conspiracy theories" from historiography is the consistency of method, analysis, the use of sources, methodology in the use of evidence. Usually the empirical method is used in the selection of sources, with the subsequent analysis being use of analytical tools.

To take 9/11 conspiracy theories as an example, these do not follow consistent methods. They usually rely on:
* Quote-mining - using out-of-context selective quotes to mislead the reader
* Confirmation bias - selecting sources which agree with your theory, but ignoring sources that do not without sufficient explanation
* Out-right fabrication - telling lies (i.e. "4,000 Jews were warned to stay away from the WTC on 9/11")
* Use of inappropriate sources - relying on "evidence" and theories from right-wing hate groups
* Relying on "experts" who offer theories outside their expertise - i.e. the theologist David Ray Griffin analysing phenomena best left to structural engineers and physicists. (it's also interesting to note that David Ray Griffin also utilises sources from the fascist American Free Press).

Philosophical Materialist
13th December 2007, 12:38
Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 01:26 am
Again we note that someone takes doubting the official story of 9-11 as equalling the acceptance of Aex Jones views. This is very new and very interesting, as far as what it suggest about US disinformation campaigns.

They seem to be working quite well.
You're not accusing people here of being "US disinformation" are you? That reeks of paranoia.

I've seen posters on the net who "doubt the official story" and claim they're not right-wing. When pressed on what they do believe they provide links from PrisonPlanet, InfoWars, WhatReallyHappened etc and claim "9/11 was an inside job!!!" What is one supposed to think?

Given the utilisation of far-right sources by many conspiracy theories and conspiracy theorists, is it little wonder they are thought little of?

oujiQualm
13th December 2007, 23:11
Originally posted by Philosophical [email protected] 13, 2007 12:32 pm
What differentiates "conspiracy theories" from historiography is the consistency of method, analysis, the use of sources, methodology in the use of evidence. Usually the empirical method is used in the selection of sources, with the subsequent analysis being use of analytical tools.

To take 9/11 conspiracy theories as an example, these do not follow consistent methods. They usually rely on:
* Quote-mining - using out-of-context selective quotes to mislead the reader
* Confirmation bias - selecting sources which agree with your theory, but ignoring sources that do not without sufficient explanation
* Out-right fabrication - telling lies (i.e. "4,000 Jews were warned to stay away from the WTC on 9/11")
* Use of inappropriate sources - relying on "evidence" and theories from right-wing hate groups
* Relying on "experts" who offer theories outside their expertise - i.e. the theologist David Ray Griffin analysing phenomena best left to structural engineers and physicists. (it's also interesting to note that David Ray Griffin also utilises sources from the fascist American Free Press).
The first paragraph is generalization that is usually mumbled by both official historiains and dissident historians no matter what regime we are speaking of.

* Regarding your first dot. No doubt true of most "Conspiracy Theories". That is why I am i favor
of a new invesitgation that is not controlled by the white house. As important as WHAT
is claimed is the manner of the investigation. Is it properly mediated by the media so that people
have a democratic access to the facts, or are cerain incorrect numbers of the intercepts repeated
in the media whereas, the true numbers were mentioned a couple of times in 2002 and then never
"chained" in articles again? Are government whistlblowers subpoenad by the investigation
thus granting them legal protection from gov. reprisal? (almost none were in offical 9/11 report,
ask Sybal Edomonds) Is there at least one member of the committee who is not compromised by
previous relations with the intelligence agencies ( have you ever looked into the history of Lee
Hamilton. There are PLENTY of books and articles not authored by Alex Jones!) People
interviwed by the Committee would have a chance to comment on how the final report used their
testimony. As Professor Gerald D. McNight shows in his excellent dissection of the Warren
Commission, so many of those interviewed were later bewildered by how the WC distorted their
testimony to fit LonNutism: it made the Majic Bullet read like Rene Descartes. Critics of the official
report could then be given time to debate it. Instead what we got were political insiders deeply
compromised by connections to intelligence agencies that have been unchecked since around
1947.

Or would you have preferred Bush's first choice Herny Kissinger? The level of sincerity of the
9/11 "investigation" was evident right then.

* Second dot. OF course many of the Conspiracy theories do this. Thats why I dont subscribe
to them. However NONE COULD POSSIBLY BE MORE GUILTY OF THIS THAN THE OFFICIAL
GOVERNMENT CONSPIRACY THEORY. I take it your belive this report? Or is your stance one of
fashionable indifference to the stated basis for what has amounted to the begining of Corporate fascism?

* This would be a great "conspiracy theory to put out if you later wanted to hang out the line
that "all those who disagree with the Official 9/11 Report are Anti-Semetic Rightists." Am
I saying that this was the intention of these theories? No, I am saying that I have no way of
knowing this, and it is certainly possible that other motives including racial prejudice were
factor. But am I saying that this strategic muddying of the watter on purpose was a
possibility. Absolutely! Anyone who has studied disinformation strategies and or the Kennedy
Assassination knows this. (By the way if you are one of those autonome "good leftists" who
mumble lines about Kennedy being an average cold warrior and THEREFOR (as if logical
conclusion) all people who suggest there was a conspiracy are wacky flying saucer people,
you might want to call up Harvard University Press and WIlliams college and have them not
publish the work of David Kaiser due out in March 2008 arguing decisively as has EVERY
ACADEMIC BOOK published since 1995 that Kennedy WAS IN FACT PULLING OUT OF
NAM AND or that there WAS a conspiracy. Tell them Kaiser should be fired because you saw
the X-files on FOX in 1996 and they spoke of CIA assassinations in the same program that
they spoke about flying saucers. That ought to be good enough for Max Holland of The Nation
who is also published on the CIA.s web site-- and please look that one up before you call it a
conspiracy theory, although, that latter option is admittedly... quicker.

* Next dot. How old are you.Did you read the NYT and the utterly mainstream world press in
the end of 2001 and 2002? Thats all that was needed as far as sourcing. If you think that
you need to go to the rightwing press for sourcing on 9/11 you haven't been looking, or you
only started looking in 2005. I spend more time on footnotes than in the main text. Check
the sources on the Howard Zinn endorsed books of David Ray Griffin. Almost every one of
them is from NYT , Financial Times, ABC etc. And no THIS DOESNT MAKE THEM ALL TRUE.
It does disprove your insinuation that all of this doubt about the offical government
COnspiracy Theory is base on sourcing from the right wing press.

* Last dot; The same arguement could be used to invalidate every word written by Noam
Chomsky, on grounds that he was a professional linguist and not a polititical scientist. Having
read Chomsky there is no way I would ever make such an argument. You see I believe in
applying a logical analysis to an argument, rather than an a priori categorical rejection of
an analysis based on which academic discipline of the capitalist Cold War University system
a person is working in. With the exception of one book EXPLICITLY BASED ON RELIGION
the three Griffin books I have read do not contain a single shred of religious content. I am
an atheist, and read them very critically spending a long time on soucing. Have you read
his books? I am sure that you havent or you wouldnt even be trying this avenue. It sure is
a quick and convenient way of dismissing an arguement, REGUARDLESS OF SOURCING,
however

Dimentio
16th December 2007, 15:45
Originally posted by oujiQualm+December 13, 2007 01:26 am--> (oujiQualm @ December 13, 2007 01:26 am)
[email protected] 13, 2007 01:21 am
9-11 was an attack on america that was launched by Al Gore and the Playboy Bunnies.

See I can be almost as ridiculous as Alex Jones if I put my mind to it!
Again we note that someone takes doubting the official story of 9-11 as equalling the acceptance of Aex Jones views. This is very new and very interesting, as far as what it suggest about US disinformation campaigns.

They seem to be working quite well. [/b]
In recruitment, there is a disaster if we are associated with nuts.

Zurdito
16th December 2007, 16:15
Again we note that someone takes doubting the official story of 9-11 as equalling the acceptance of Aex Jones views. This is very new and very interesting, as far as what it suggest about US disinformation campaigns.

The trouble is, the conspiracy theorists have no evidence. Unless you seriosuly think most of the scientific community are liars. We can "doubt" the official story as much as we like, but then we'll end up in arguments about the physical qualities of steel structures when hit by planes and litres of burning jet fuel - which 99% of don't know or care about - and be placed in opposition to most engineers anyway.

LuĂ­s Henrique
16th December 2007, 21:57
I once talked to a guy who wanted to convince me that the CIA and the industrial-military establishment had murdered John Kennedy.

After I explained him for half an hour that Kennedy was a right winger, who had no problems with the weapon merchants, and was anticommunist to the very core (perhaps the most fanatically anti-communist of all American presidents, and I do not forget that Ronald Reagan was a president too)...

... the guy then started to argue that the communists had killed Kennedy.

That is what distinguishes conspiracy theorists: they cannot be rationally argued with. If you prove them in the most conclusive way that they are wrong, their conclusion is not that they are indeed wrong, but that the evidence that they are right was so effectively suppressed that only a conspiracy could have done it.

Luís Henrique

oujiQualm
16th December 2007, 23:57
Originally posted by Luís [email protected] 16, 2007 09:56 pm
I once talked to a guy who wanted to convince me that the CIA and the industrial-military establishment had murdered John Kennedy.

After I explained him for half an hour that Kennedy was a right winger, who had no problems with the weapon merchants, and was anticommunist to the very core (perhaps the most fanatically anti-communist of all American presidents, and I do not forget that Ronald Reagan was a president too)...

... the guy then started to argue that the communists had killed Kennedy.

That is what distinguishes conspiracy theorists: they cannot be rationally argued with. If you prove them in the most conclusive way that they are wrong, their conclusion is not that they are indeed wrong, but that the evidence that they are right was so effectively suppressed that only a conspiracy could have done it.

Luís Henrique
Luis, Ill argue about the Kennedy Assassination as long as you want to. I naturally start from a disadvantage in that all--ESPECIALLY ON THE LEFT ie Chomsky and COckburn-- repeatedly flow names around while proving they have read almost nothing about the Kennedy Assassination.

Clearly you are fighting a straw dog argument when you make all people who are convinced that there was a conspiracy seem as irrational as the one you have debated. Do you care to accept my challenge. I myself was convinced by Chomskys annalysis of Kennedy for a long time.

Have you read Micheal Parrenti's challenge to Chomsky on the Kennedy Assassination. Or do you just do straw dog arguments?

LuĂ­s Henrique
17th December 2007, 00:05
What for? Kennedy was not a progressist. He was not against the establishment. Nor his murder was a class action.

Luís Henrique

oujiQualm
17th December 2007, 00:31
Originally posted by Luís [email protected] 17, 2007 12:04 am
What for? Kennedy was not a progressist. He was not against the establishment. Nor his murder was a class action.

Luís Henrique
Luis -- the picture is more complex than that. I in no way deny that Kennedy ran in some ways to the right of Nixon in the 1960 campaign with his missile gap rhetoric.

I think most left dismissals of Conspiracy in the kennedy assassination have ignored the intense bureacratic pressures between Kennedy and permanent millitary bureacracy and the national security state-- ESPECIALLY THOSE THAT DEVELOPED AFTER THE BAY OF PIGS AND THE CUBAN MISSILE CRISIS. Have you done much reading in this area.

I think many leftists -- because so much disinformation--yes I say this confidently based on an informed analysis ( I will go into detail ) would be verysurprised about this period.

No one is suggesting that Kennedy was a leftist. The CIA and the national security state was 13 years old in 1960. Moreover, they had just been given unbelievably free reign during their truly formative years (1952-60). There was room for misunderstanding on both sides.

more later.

Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures
18th December 2007, 23:35
Revleft history is obessed with the 1900-2000 period, for some reason

Herman
18th December 2007, 23:40
Revleft history is obessed with the 1900-2000 period, for some reason

It's in that period when communism is mostly put into practice for the first time on an international scale.

Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures
18th December 2007, 23:49
Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2007 11:39 pm

Revleft history is obessed with the 1900-2000 period, for some reason

It's in that period when communism is mostly put into practice for the first time on an international scale.
but it lacks togas!

Ancient History > Modern History

mikelepore
20th December 2007, 12:02
Originally posted by Philosophical [email protected] 13, 2007 12:32 pm

* Quote-mining - using out-of-context selective quotes to mislead the reader
* Confirmation bias - selecting sources which agree with your theory, but ignoring sources that do not without sufficient explanation
* Out-right fabrication - telling lies (i.e. "4,000 Jews were warned to stay away from the WTC on 9/11")
* Use of inappropriate sources - relying on "evidence" and theories from right-wing hate groups
* Relying on "experts" who offer theories outside their expertise
Your list was very well done. May I suggest a few more:

* Acting as though the lack of evidence were itself a form of evidence. For example - we don't know of any forensic evidence that flying saucers have landed. A-ha, that proves that the government secretly confiscated and hid all of the forensic evidence that was left behind by the flying saucers!

* Interpreting a mishandling of evidence as proof of a cover-up, as though simple incompetence never appears in people. For example, it is true that the FBI sent John F. Kennedy's Dallas limousine to the repair shop to get fixed and cleaned, instead of labeling it as evidence to be preserved as-is. "A-ha, that exonerates Oswald!" No, it doesn't. Maybe ther person at the FBI who did that is just incompetent and stupid. It doesn't necessarily indicate a specific answer.

* Automatically reversing someone else's assertion. For example: The government reported that the astronauts went to the moon; the government always tells lies; therefore the astronauts never really went to the moon.

oujiQualm
20th December 2007, 23:23
Originally posted by mikelepore+December 20, 2007 12:01 pm--> (mikelepore @ December 20, 2007 12:01 pm)
Philosophical [email protected] 13, 2007 12:32 pm

* Quote-mining - using out-of-context selective quotes to mislead the reader
* Confirmation bias - selecting sources which agree with your theory, but ignoring sources that do not without sufficient explanation
* Out-right fabrication - telling lies (i.e. "4,000 Jews were warned to stay away from the WTC on 9/11")
* Use of inappropriate sources - relying on "evidence" and theories from right-wing hate groups
* Relying on "experts" who offer theories outside their expertise
Your list was very well done. May I suggest a few more:

* Acting as though the lack of evidence were itself a form of evidence. For example - we don't know of any forensic evidence that flying saucers have landed. A-ha, that proves that the government secretly confiscated and hid all of the forensic evidence that was left behind by the flying saucers!

* Interpreting a mishandling of evidence as proof of a cover-up, as though simple incompetence never appears in people. For example, it is true that the FBI sent John F. Kennedy's Dallas limousine to the repair shop to get fixed and cleaned, instead of labeling it as evidence to be preserved as-is. "A-ha, that exonerates Oswald!" No, it doesn't. Maybe ther person at the FBI who did that is just incompetent and stupid. It doesn't necessarily indicate a specific answer.

* Automatically reversing someone else's assertion. For example: The government reported that the astronauts went to the moon; the government always tells lies; therefore the astronauts never really went to the moon. [/b]
I responded to the first four stars. (see above) Why stop now!

Interpreting a mishandling of evidence as proof of a cover-up, as though simple incompetence never appears in people. For example, it is true that the FBI sent John F. Kennedy's Dallas limousine to the repair shop to get fixed and cleaned, instead of labeling it as evidence to be preserved as-is. "A-ha, that exonerates Oswald!" No, it doesn't. Maybe ther person at the FBI who did that is just incompetent and stupid. It doesn't necessarily indicate a specific answer.
----------------------------
Well if this were just one of the facts that suggests coverrup that would be one thing(even though it ALONE would have to raise eyebrows, fixing up a SOMEWHAT SIGNIFICANT CRIME SCENE THE seekend of the assassination, by flying the car to Detroit. But as with most people who have read nothing and just seek to dismiss, you just mention one fact IN ISOLATION. There were litterallly thousands of "errors" and examples of coverup. And you act as if it were impossible to tell the difference. Any one who has read anything knows that this is not the case. One can compare initial testimonies with earlier and later stories, one can contrast ititial testimony about the autopsy with later testimonies in Bethesda, one can contrast memos in FBI the weekend of with later memos that CLEARLY SHOW intention to leave evidence out etc. Sure why not have the least experieinced people perform the autopsy? Its only the prez! We see this happening too many times to count.
Its a matter of mediation. You present one instance and dont even discuss the myriad of issues in that. You dont want to.
________

Automatically reversing someone else's assertion. For example: The government reported that the astronauts went to the moon; the government always tells lies; therefore the astronauts never really went to the moon.
_________
Well millions of records have been released-- especially since the ARRB was formed in 1993. We now have records that can be very usefull in determining if records were witheld or people were lieing, when they say testified on an issue. Of course there are some very important documents that are still being witheld by the CIA. Just this month, an appeals court ruled on the case of a guy named Joanniedes Sp? who was intimately involved in Cuba opperations in 1963. Interestignly, the CIA chose this same guy to be its liason with the House Select Committee on Assassinations in 1977-79. No one knew at the time of his direct involvment with the leading suspects in the Assassination.
------------
* Acting as though the lack of evidence were itself a form of evidence. For example - we don't know of any forensic evidence that flying saucers have landed. A-ha, that proves that the government secretly confiscated and hid all of the forensic evidence that was left behind by the flying saucers!
-----------

Well in the case of JFK there is no shortage of testimony from three different doctors in Dallas that DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSES THE later autopsy records from Amateur Night at Bethesda Naval Hospital. It is not a question of a lack of evidence. IT IS TRUE THAT THE INITITAL AUTOPSY NOTES FROM DALLAS WERE LATER BURNED but, hey its just the Prez! There is simply no shortage whatsoever of witness testimony FROM THE PUBLISHED RECORDS OF THE WC ITSELF that directly contradict the final report. They just rely on the fact that almost noone would want to read it.

Again I hope you have taken note of the new books that are being published this comming March. It is absolutely incredible HOW MANY PEOPLE PUT THE JFK ASSASSINATION IN THE CATEGORY OF FLYING SAUCER STUFF!! I find that almost invariably these types are 35 and younger, because, as I may have mentioned above, the entire concept of CONSPIRACY THOERY was stretched beyond belief in the early to mid 1990s with the Big Media reaction to the JFK movie, and the X-files.

Lay off the x-files, and try a little reading. You might find there is good reason NOBODY QUOTES FROM CASE CLOSED ANYMORE! Oh... but that would take time... and besides its been made "low status knowledge" Much easier to revert to glib generic dismissals.


Lone Nutters may be an endangered species.

In March 2008 two new books arguing that there was a conspiracy are due out.

First Jefferson Morely, of the Washington Post is due out with his long awaited bio of CIA Mexico City Station Chief Winston Scott.


http://www.amazon.com/Our-Man-Mexico-Winst...y/dp/0700615717 (http://www.amazon.com/Our-Man-Mexico-Winston-History/dp/0700615717)


Also David Kaiser is due to publish his new book about the conspiracy to kil JFK with Harvard Universlty Press.

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/KAIASS.html

These books are packed with all kinds of new stuff. It will be harder than ever for these books to be dismissed. Stay tuned.
_________________

oujiQualm
31st December 2007, 14:37
I am not interested in the Kennedy Assassination because of Kennedy. I am interested in it because I see it as perhaps the key event-- combined with its years long coverup-- in the ossification of a permanent Millitary Industrial Congressional Complex in conjunction with the National Security State.

It is a core sampling.

The Kennedy Assassination is not about Kennedy
Many aspects of Cold War history run through it.
There is a good reason its become a "word" almost like "Oliver Stone"

For example check out these ORIGINAL ARTICLES from October 1963. Note how different they are from today in that they clearly distinguish the CIA from the rest of the military in actual military strategy. Now recall that even Stanley Kutler writes of Watergate that E. Howard Hunt had documents in his safe -- on the night of the Watergate break in-- that were 1) forged 2) written by
employees of the CIA 3) designed to implicate JFK in the 11/1/63 Diem assassination, and let the CIA off the hook.


http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7534

Guest1
31st December 2007, 14:53
Moved to learning.

SouthernBelle82
31st December 2007, 18:17
My simple solution: if you can prove it then it's not really a theory anymore is it?

oujiQualm
1st January 2008, 19:00
Originally posted by [email protected] 31, 2007 06:16 pm
My simple solution: if you can prove it then it's not really a theory anymore is it?
What if you have proved it but it is not published in publications with a wide circulation and worse theories that prove the opposite are given much broader coverage? What if for example Newsweeks mocking coverage of the JFK pull out of Vietnam thesis was specifically targetted for mainstream mockery and also lft gateeeping mockery-- and then over the next fifteen years EVERY MAJOR ACADEMIC PUBLICATION (OXFORD PRESS, HARVARD PRESS ETC) proves that the Newsweek mockery was false, and still this only reaches a small audience. PROVING A THEORY IS NOT SIMPLY BEING RIGHT. IT IS ALSO ABOUT FIGHTING FOR AN AUDIENCE TO HEAR THIS THEORY.