Police in Britain looking to strike over pay [Archive]

Marsella

12th December 2007, 20:45

Yeah I spose shooting all those Blacks does get tiring after a while!

An ample reward is deserving. <_<

Even tho i FUCKING HATE PIGS! i would still support thier strike even tho thier reactionary peices of shit cause as much as i hate THIER FUCKING GUTS! if we can build some bridges you know maybe talk to them about thier situation maybe they'll be sympathetic to our cause..is this likely? Most likely not, but i would try anyways just for the sake of trying and solidairty and Fuck i know how it feels to not have enough money fuck it sucks balls and shit is just getting more and more expensive so i dunno just a thouhgt.

And a fucking retarded one at that.

Cops don't want to build bridges.

In this case, the only bridge they hope to build leads to the bank.

And I am sure you can put away your thoughts about the poor police officers not receiving enough money for the Christmas holidays. :( Their pay is substantially higher, at least where I am, than the average wage. And forgive me, but riding around in your pigmobile isn't exactly hard work, or deserving of any respect.

But I wouldn't give a shit if they received half of the average wage. Their ideals and class position rests solely with the perpetuation of the current system.

Nothing gets around that.

All this has already been explained in the thread: Police Unions (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=71303&hl=police)

Ultra-Violence

12th December 2007, 21:02

Yeah I spose shooting all those Blacks does get tiring after a while!

An ample reward is deserving.

Your talking to some one from l.a were the pigs stop me every time garunteed if im out after a certain time and harras me and give me shit because im brown and i live on the wrong side of town my GF got shot at by the cops and so did too of my freinds at the May1 Melee at macarthur park fucking beating the shit out of people and blasting at us with fucking rubber bullets and tear gas

I FUCKING HATE COPS
just wanna make that clear

And a fucking retarded one at that.

Cops don't want to build bridges.

In this case, the only bridge they hope to build leads to the bank.

And I am sure you can put away your thoughts about the poor police officers not receiving enough money for the Christmas holidays. Their pay is substantially higher, at least where I am, than the average wage. And forgive me, but riding around in your pigmobile isn't exactly hard work, or deserving of any respect.

But I wouldn't give a shit if they received half of the average wage. Their ideals and class position rests solely with the perpetuation of the current system.

Nothing gets around that.

All this has already been explained in the thread: Police Unions

i know thier reactionary peices of shit but i cant help but feeling sad for them its just the way i feel fuck you know some times i care about other human beings regardless if they agree with me or not or even if they want to hurt me, if their was a sack of shit nazi dying in the desert and he was dying f dehydration i would still help him even tough he wants to kill me i want to kill him etc.. for the simple fact that he's another human bieng and its just the way i was brought up and i would do it for anyone regardless if they did it for me or not. like i said it was just a thought or what im not supose to think anymore? :P

Comrade Nadezhda

12th December 2007, 22:08

Originally posted by Ultra-[email protected] 12, 2007 03:01 pm

Yeah I spose shooting all those Blacks does get tiring after a while!

An ample reward is deserving.

Your talking to some one from l.a were the pigs stop me every time garunteed if im out after a certain time and harras me and give me shit because im brown and i live on the wrong side of town my GF got shot at by the cops and so did too of my freinds at the May1 Melee at macarthur park fucking beating the shit out of people and blasting at us with fucking rubber bullets and tear gas

I FUCKING HATE COPS
just wanna make that clear

And a fucking retarded one at that.

Cops don't want to build bridges.

In this case, the only bridge they hope to build leads to the bank.

And I am sure you can put away your thoughts about the poor police officers not receiving enough money for the Christmas holidays. Their pay is substantially higher, at least where I am, than the average wage. And forgive me, but riding around in your pigmobile isn't exactly hard work, or deserving of any respect.

But I wouldn't give a shit if they received half of the average wage. Their ideals and class position rests solely with the perpetuation of the current system.

Nothing gets around that.

All this has already been explained in the thread: Police Unions

i know thier reactionary peices of shit but i cant help but feeling sad for them its just the way i feel fuck you know some times i care about other human beings regardless if they agree with me or not or even if they want to hurt me, if their was a sack of shit nazi dying in the desert and he was dying f dehydration i would still help him even tough he wants to kill me i want to kill him etc.. for the simple fact that he's another human bieng and its just the way i was brought up and i would do it for anyone regardless if they did it for me or not. like i said it was just a thought or what im not supose to think anymore? :P
Keep in mind that the police are instruments of the ruling class. They are subject to the bourgeois state apparatus- so the police force isn't simply the cause of the conditions- though they certainly serve to protect the bourgeois state and bourgeois property.

It is important to recognize that the police force is an instrument of the bourgeois ruling class, not in the position of a ruling class itself.

I see why there is hate for police (I'm opposed to the police force under the bourgeois state); however, it is important to realize that the police are subject to bourgeois rule- just as small business owners (petit-bourgeois) are subject to it. They aren't bourgeois- but they are instruments of the bourgeoisie. Yes, they serve in the interest of the bourgeois state- but the police aren't serving their own "personal" interest, do you see- they are serving the interests of the bourgeoisie- i.e. eliminating the police force won't eliminate the problem. Police are merely an instrument. They aren't effective without being used as a means of protecting the bourgeois state. Their interests aren't necessarily bourgeois. It is important to remember that police, like proletarians, are subject to the bourgeois state apparatus.

Again, I am not arguing in favor of the police force- just trying to show there is more involved in this; the police don't cause the problem, the police lock people up, shoot and kill them not because they benefit personally- do you see, it is for the benefit of the bourgeois state. The police cannot be equated with the bourgeois ruling class.

RedArmyFaction

14th December 2007, 23:43

why should the police get a pay increase ?? They never do anything anyway !!

bloody_capitalist_sham

15th December 2007, 00:08

The Ideology of the Police force, is fairly racist, very conservative and very patriotic.

They are also a group of workers that receive extraordinary benefits, even compared to most other state sector benefits.

They however, don't believe in the ideology of the police force, but accept that it is their job to enforce that ideology amongst the rest of the public. Hence, why we see so much connections and profiteering with the criminals.

However, like all workers, when their experience clashes with their ideology, their ideology get weaker and weaker.

So, i hope the government repeatedly deny them their money, and it brakes the back of the police force. And we can be there to show them the truth when they decide to leave their line work and choose another.

Dr Mindbender

15th December 2007, 00:12

i thnk politically angry cops would be more likely to turn to fascism than come to us. Probably helps to explain why there is so much police-nazi collusion.

redarmyfaction38

15th December 2007, 00:14

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 11:42 pm
why should the police get a pay increase ?? They never do anything anyway !!
because they are public service workers and public service workers are under attack.
this is an opportunity for the left in britain; having suffered in the past from divisive pay awards that guaranteed the support of the police in order to crush workers resistance, gordon brown has presented the left with the best chance ever to bring "workers in uniform" bach into the fold.
can you imagine the furore in the right wing press if the police federation declares itself a trade union? and affiliates to the tuc?
the state will shit itself! the capitalists will turn cartwheels in order to prevent this happening!
this will demonstrate to the rest of the working class just how weak the capitalist bcontrol of britain actually is.
yes, it's an acorn, but it could grow into a mighty oak with which to bludgeon the bourgeouisie.

redarmyfaction38

15th December 2007, 00:30

Originally posted by Comrade Nadezhda+December 12, 2007 10:07 pm--> (Comrade Nadezhda @ December 12, 2007 10:07 pm)
Ultra-[email protected] 12, 2007 03:01 pm

Yeah I spose shooting all those Blacks does get tiring after a while!

An ample reward is deserving.

Your talking to some one from l.a were the pigs stop me every time garunteed if im out after a certain time and harras me and give me shit because im brown and i live on the wrong side of town my GF got shot at by the cops and so did too of my freinds at the May1 Melee at macarthur park fucking beating the shit out of people and blasting at us with fucking rubber bullets and tear gas

I FUCKING HATE COPS
just wanna make that clear

And a fucking retarded one at that.

Cops don't want to build bridges.

In this case, the only bridge they hope to build leads to the bank.

And I am sure you can put away your thoughts about the poor police officers not receiving enough money for the Christmas holidays. Their pay is substantially higher, at least where I am, than the average wage. And forgive me, but riding around in your pigmobile isn't exactly hard work, or deserving of any respect.

But I wouldn't give a shit if they received half of the average wage. Their ideals and class position rests solely with the perpetuation of the current system.

Nothing gets around that.

All this has already been explained in the thread: Police Unions

i know thier reactionary peices of shit but i cant help but feeling sad for them its just the way i feel fuck you know some times i care about other human beings regardless if they agree with me or not or even if they want to hurt me, if their was a sack of shit nazi dying in the desert and he was dying f dehydration i would still help him even tough he wants to kill me i want to kill him etc.. for the simple fact that he's another human bieng and its just the way i was brought up and i would do it for anyone regardless if they did it for me or not. like i said it was just a thought or what im not supose to think anymore? :P
Keep in mind that the police are instruments of the ruling class. They are subject to the bourgeois state apparatus- so the police force isn't simply the cause of the conditions- though they certainly serve to protect the bourgeois state and bourgeois property.

It is important to recognize that the police force is an instrument of the bourgeois ruling class, not in the position of a ruling class itself.

I see why there is hate for police (I'm opposed to the police force under the bourgeois state); however, it is important to realize that the police are subject to bourgeois rule- just as small business owners (petit-bourgeois) are subject to it. They aren't bourgeois- but they are instruments of the bourgeoisie. Yes, they serve in the interest of the bourgeois state- but the police aren't serving their own "personal" interest, do you see- they are serving the interests of the bourgeoisie- i.e. eliminating the police force won't eliminate the problem. Police are merely an instrument. They aren't effective without being used as a means of protecting the bourgeois state. Their interests aren't necessarily bourgeois. It is important to remember that police, like proletarians, are subject to the bourgeois state apparatus.

Again, I am not arguing in favor of the police force- just trying to show there is more involved in this; the police don't cause the problem, the police lock people up, shoot and kill them not because they benefit personally- do you see, it is for the benefit of the bourgeois state. The police cannot be equated with the bourgeois ruling class. [/b]
you're missing something here comrade, in a bourgeouise democratic society the police play a dual role, obviously, first and foremost, they are protectors of position and property, however, in order to function in a "democratic" society, they have to be seen to protect the security of the general public.
in the past, policemen have had to be bribed with higher wages and conditions of service to put the interests of capitalist govts. in front of the interest of the general public (the working class).
capitalist govt. has now decided that it no longer needs to bribe this section of the working class with higher than average wages, it no longer needs them, socialist revolution is off the agenda, capitalism has triumphed.apparently.
the very fact that the police are balloting on the right to strike is great leap forward for the left, personal prejudice, old scores that need settling have to be put aside. we should be encouraging the police to ballot, we should be presenting them with the economic and social arguments that will encourage them to break with the capitalist state. imo

Zurdito

15th December 2007, 01:33

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 02:51 pm
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs...2226067,00.html (http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,,2226067,00.html)

This is unbelievable!

Would you support a strike by the police?

Are the police fellow workers or just the upholders of the Bourgeoisie and their oppressive laws and private property?

Or are they both in the sense that most policemen and women come from working class backgrounds but uphold reactionary laws?

Look at it like this: the Bolsheviks turned the rank and file army against the officers, right? The fact the army is a bourgeois institution didn't change that, in fact, it was key to the revolution.

we should do the same with soldiers and the police. The anti- war movement for example should spend much more time leafletting soldiers. I know Miltiant in the 1980's leafletted the Falklands troops, and many when they returned joined.

The same with the police - we need to try to turn them against their bosses. Right now they are being offered a 1.9% pay rise, a real slap in the face when inflation is 5%. Of course we hate "the police" but individual officers are worth targetting for support. Also, the less the state pays any employee, the easier that makes it for the state to run, so of course we should support any demand for a pay rise. Less money for officers=more for the institution.

The Feral Underclass

15th December 2007, 02:10

The police are not workers. They are servants of the state and defend and maintain bourgeois hegemony.

There is absolutely no way that revolutionary organisations should support striking police.

The Feral Underclass

15th December 2007, 02:17

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 02:32 am
Look at it like this: the Bolsheviks turned the rank and file army against the officers, right? The fact the army is a bourgeois institution didn't change that, in fact, it was key to the revolution.
In a revolutionary situation yes, not in an historical period of reaction when the ideas of the ruling class prevail.

The same with the police - we need to try to turn them against their bosses.

The police are ideologically trained. They exist to maintain bourgeois control; they're not a revolutionary force and will not be convinced by activists who attempt to argue a revolutionary line. There job is to maintain[/b] state authority and it is a job they pride themselves on doing.

It is total madness to suggest that we can "turn" the police against the state. They [i]are the state.

we need to try to turn them against their bosses. Right now they are being offered a 1.9% pay rise, a real slap in the face when inflation is 5%.

Are you taking the piss? Are you seriously contending that revolutionary organisations should come out and support striking police in their bid to be paid more money to defend capitalism?

That's totally insane!

Of course we hate "the police" but individual officers are worth targetting for support.

Which they'll never give you.

Also, the less the state pays any employee, the easier that makes it for the state to run, so of course we should support any demand for a pay rise. Less money for officers=more for the institution.

That doesn't even make any sense! Your logic is totally fucked up. It doesn't work like that.

Zurdito

15th December 2007, 02:25

In a revolutionary situation yes, not in an historical period of reaction when the ideas of the ruling class prevail.

and you hope to advance us out of this period of reaction by not supporting strikes?

The police are ideologically trained. They exist to maintain bourgeois control; they're not a revolutionary force and will not be convinced by activists who attempt to argue a revolutionary line. There job is to maintain state authority and it is a job they pride themselves on doing.[/b]

all workers are ideologically trained. yes the police's job is to maintain state control,congratulations on significantly adding to the argument with that line. :rolleyes:

It is total madness to suggest that we can "turn" the police against the state. They [i]are the state.

But the state doesn't serve them, and at times they can work against their bosses, like, when they are on strike.

Are you taking the piss? Are you seriously contending that revolutionary organisations should come out and support striking police in their bid to be paid more money to defend capitalism?

Yes, the more the state has to pay them the weaker it becomes.

Which they'll never give you.

no policemean can ever be turned? just like no soldier can ever be turned, right? :rolleyes: but oh wait I thought it was possible in a period of revolutiary upheaval. So your idea is, we just wait for the revolution to happen, then we adopt revolutionary politics. that's a good one.

That doesn't even make any sense! Your logic is totally fucked up. It doesn't work like that.

Why doesn't it work liek that? Just saying it doesn't make it true. If the state feels the need to antagonise the police with a pay-cut greater than even the one it is giving to the rest of the public sector, then it's doing it for a reason. Why should we just sit back and let the state save all the money it wants to and run its institutions with the exact budget it would like to? are yous aying that the urling class doesn't benefit? or that somehow them getting what they want isn't a defeat for us?

The Feral Underclass

15th December 2007, 02:42

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 03:24 am

In a revolutionary situation yes, not in an historical period of reaction when the ideas of the ruling class prevail.

and you hope to advance us out of this period of reaction by not supporting strikes?
That's a strawman argument. This isn't about not supporting strikes, this is about not support a police strike.

all workers are ideologically trained.

Erm, no they're not. Workers don't spend months being taught how to maintain state control.

yes the police's job is to maintain state control,congratulations on significantly adding to the argument with that line.

If you want to be rude, go right ahead, the fact remains the same; the police are and can never be apart of class struggle on this basis.

It is total madness to suggest that we can "turn" the police against the state. They are the state.

But the state doesn't serve them, and at times they can work against their bosses, like, when they are on strike.

They are the state. This is an inter-ruling class conflict not a working class one. Supporting the police on their strike is not a revolutionary goal because you will never be able to impart revolutionary consciousness or argue for militant action, which is the point of supporting a workers strike.

We don't just support strikes because it's a strike, we support striking workers to argue revolutionary politics and methods so that workers can gain confidence to take control of their workplaces and communities through force.

You'll never be able to convince the police of such things because they are ideologically trained to oppose this sort of thing. You want us to support the police in their job, but their job is to smash workers democracy and maintain the state and capitalism.

That's an incredibly reactionary view to take. Why would we support our enemies in making their conditions of pay better so that they can get paid more to smash working class movement?

Yes, the more the state has to pay them the weaker it becomes.

:wacko:

How is that possible?

Which they'll never give you.

no policemean can ever be turned?

Why would they? How could they?

just like no soldier can ever be turned, right? :rolleyes:

Soldiers are not ideologically trained to defend the state. The army is used for external battles where they fight foreign enemies and do what they're told. The police force are designed to fight internal enemies i.e. the working class to defend capitalism and the state, which they are taught is the bedrock of civilisation.

but oh wait I thought it was possible in a period of revolutiary upheaval.

Well yeah, obviously. When the ideas prevailing society begin to break down people are forced to reevaluate their situation and in a moment of social crisis soldiers are not going to start killing their own families when they are calling for better conditions.

The police on the other hand are ideologically trained to deal with any crisis in the same way, including if family break the law. They are taught that they must defend the state at all costs and their training is designed to break down sentimentality towards family so that there main focus is defending the law.

So your idea is, we just wait for the revolution to happen, then we adopt revolutionary politics.

No.

That doesn't even make any sense! Your logic is totally fucked up. It doesn't work like that.

Why doesn't it work liek that?

The actual money it requires to increase this pay-rise has absolutely no effect on the overall income of the government. The state will still be able to run as effectively as before.

Zurdito

15th December 2007, 03:09

They are the state. This is an inter-ruling class conflict

you think police officers are part of the bourgeoisie now? :rolleyes:

We don't just support strikes because it's a strike, we support striking workers to argue revolutionary politics and methods so that workers can gain confidence to take control of their workplaces and communities through force.

wrong, we also support a strike because a defeat is a victory for the bourgeoisie. a strike is a grass level result of the need to expand the rate of profit clashing with ordinary people's interests.

That's an incredibly reactionary view to take. Why would we support our enemies in making their conditions of pay better so that they can get paid more to smash working class movement?

well actually it's not about making their pay better it's about opposing a pay cut, which is something happening to all public sector workers, because the bourgoeisie here have decided that the state needs to be cut back. as revolutionaries we obviously oppose that, because we are in a class war against the bourgeoisie and want to adopt the key elements of their battle plan.

:wacko:

How is that possible?

are you actually stupid?

Soldiers are not ideologically trained to defend the state.

:huh:

:blink:

:blink:

The army is used for external battles where they fight foreign enemies and do what they're told.

what side would the army be on in a revolution at home then? would they stay out of it? what did they do in Northern Ireland, British-administered territory? what were theyd oing int he 1970's in Britain when they were plotting a military coup? what do they do in any country when parliamentary demcoracy becomes unviable? also you can't seperate freeing up markets for the imperialist state abroad from the class war at home, that's just primitive.

Well yeah, obviously. When the ideas prevailing society begin to break down people are forced to reevaluate their situation and in a moment of social crisis soldiers are not going to start killing their own families when they are calling for better conditions.

but how do the ideas "begin to break down"? revolutionaries have to break them down. a police strike is chaos for the state, we want that, and we have to intervene and make it happen. I say leaflet the hell out of police centres.

The actual money it requires to increase this pay-rise has absolutely no effect on the overall income of the government. The state will still be able to run as effectively as before.

That's not the point, the bourgeosiie has decided the public sector needs to be downsized and attacked. They don't just provoke trouble for no reason, they don't risk police strikes, a catastroph for them, for no reason. Maybe you aren't that familiar with Marx so I'll be understanding of you, but basically, the point isn't that scarcity results from the lack of the means to produce enough for everyone, or that the bourgeoisie suffers crises because it is no longer running a rpofit, rather that different corporations and therefore states need to compete with each other as everyone tries to outdo the other's increase int he rate of profitability, thereby gaining a monopoly. The more "inefficient" (i.e., efficient, but less so than its ocmpetitors) the British state is, the more its competitors can establsih monopolies in key sectors and drive sections of our bourgeoisie out of business. Or do you think pre-Thatcher that the pay conditions and public sepnding actually were beyond the means of the state and bourgeoisie? bollocks. these attacks happen because running at a sustainable level is not enough, the rate of profit must be continually increased above the rate of ones competitiors.

Therefore, the current pay-cuts and spending-cuts are very important to the British ruling class.

Tatarin

15th December 2007, 04:04

I oppose this strike because the cops should not be paid more. On the contrary, the less money a cop recieves, the more he or she will form suspicion and disaffection of the state.

you think police officers are part of the bourgeoisie now?

The police is there to protect the state, and they are well read on what arguments eventual demonstrators have. They are like an internal army of sorts. You may be familiar with the saying "the thin blue line, the last defence" or something like that, well, that is the position of the police. They are the thin line that encircles the bourgeois.

wrong, we also support a strike because a defeat is a victory for the bourgeoisie.

Which in most cases means strikes for workers who actually make this system go around. If we support the cops on this, we will recieve a pat on the back (if even that), and then it is back to the same old thing a week later.

I mean, would you support a strike by the FBI? Or the CIA? The NSA?

How does a cop-strike help the communist movement, let alone workers?

well actually it's not about making their pay better it's about opposing a pay cut, which is something happening to all public sector workers, because the bourgoeisie here have decided that the state needs to be cut back.

And who is protecting the bourgeois? The cops do. Who is going to protect them when other public sector-workers goes on strike?

If we help the cops to win this strike, then they will be there to defend the state once the demonstrations from all the other sections begins.

but how do the ideas "begin to break down"? revolutionaries have to break them down. a police strike is chaos for the state, we want that, and we have to intervene and make it happen.

If anything, revolutionaries would ideally sabotage the strike, or rather, prolong it, make it harder for the police. The faster they get their demands, the sooner they will be out on the streets and once again upholding the state.

Marsella

15th December 2007, 05:59

I oppose this strike because the cops should not be paid more. On the contrary, the less money a cop recieves, the more he or she will form suspicion and disaffection of the state.

Whilst I am not one to argue for the increase of police wages, I am not sure of the validity of this statement.

If you've ever been to a south-east Asian country, like Thailand for example - or even China, you will notice the extreme corruption of the police force who are not paid well at all, although probably better than the average worker.

Although, this isn't taking into account their 'side-tips' which they receive. Having a gun helps in that sense.

My father who lives in Thailand has paid cops off several times for speeding or simply to leave him alone. All very common place.

But if pigs earn pittance, then they may not be loyal to their government - but that may simply point to the desire for a new government and a wage increase - certainly not something very revolutionary.

A police-state would be very beneficial to their interests.

Marion

15th December 2007, 10:22

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 04:03 am
I oppose this strike because the cops should not be paid more. On the contrary, the less money a cop recieves, the more he or she will form suspicion and disaffection of the state.

Out of interest, you could use exactly the same argument against pay rises for other public sector employees.

The Feral Underclass

15th December 2007, 11:52

Originally posted by Marion+December 15, 2007 11:21 am--> (Marion @ December 15, 2007 11:21 am)
[email protected] 15, 2007 04:03 am
I oppose this strike because the cops should not be paid more. On the contrary, the less money a cop recieves, the more he or she will form suspicion and disaffection of the state.

Out of interest, you could use exactly the same argument against pay rises for other public sector employees. [/b]
But why would you?

The Feral Underclass

15th December 2007, 13:43

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 06:58 am
But if pigs earn pittance, then they may not be loyal to their government
The police don't earn pittance, even if they don't get a pay rise. The government are never going to allow the situation to get so bad that the police go on strike, are they? How would that benefit their interests.

The government will give into their demands because they need them and the police no this, that's why they're making these threats. They're the police, they can do whatever they want and the government will have to abide by it; unless of course they want to draft the army in and call marshall law.

Do you honestly see Gorden Brown declaring Marshall law in Britain. Come on guys, let's get some perspective!

Dr Mindbender

15th December 2007, 17:19

If the police did go on strike and were successful do you think this would create a positive precedence for workers in the 'worker' sense to do the same thing?

But i have to agree, i dont think it will get that bad. Even if it does happen the state will draft in reserve cops and possibly even soldiers to scab on them. Plus they'll no doubt get a helping hand from eager fascists who fancy a go at playing little hitler.

Wanted Man

16th December 2007, 11:54

A lot of people in this thread seem to have an easy, quick-fix solution ready... I guess that's what happens when one fits the entire world into a black and white ideological view. THEY are ALL bastards, so they are objectively useless to class struggle. A cop on strike is no better than a cop who hits you with a baton, apparently.

In the Netherlands, cops are currently also striking, for a better labour agreement. In fact, because of this, this weekend's two vital football matches of Ajax - PSV and Feyenoord - AZ had to be cancelled, because the public safety can't be guaranteed. The Dutch FA was crying the loudest, because now there are no cops to do the dirty work of protecting their interests from their fans.

But I guess that they are also all dirty bastards.

The Feral Underclass

16th December 2007, 14:14

Originally posted by Van [email protected] 16, 2007 12:53 pm
In the Netherlands, cops are currently also striking, for a better labour agreement. In fact, because of this, this weekend's two vital football matches of Ajax - PSV and Feyenoord - AZ had to be cancelled, because the public safety can't be guaranteed. The Dutch FA was crying the loudest, because now there are no cops to do the dirty work of protecting their interests from their fans.

But I guess that they are also all dirty bastards.
And so what? What does that actually mean?

An archist

16th December 2007, 17:20

Hey, if cops are on strike, at least they're not on the streets harassing us (or you UK comrades).

Invader Zim

16th December 2007, 18:54

The police don't earn pittance, even if they don't get a pay rise.

Exactly, they earn a fair bit more than others on the public service payrole, i.e. fire service, nurses, paramedics, tec.

RebelDog

16th December 2007, 20:50

Originally posted by Invader [email protected] 16, 2007 06:53 pm

The police don't earn pittance, even if they don't get a pay rise.

Exactly, they earn a fair bit more than others on the public service payrole, i.e. fire service, nurses, paramedics, tec.
Correct, and these people do a far more worthwhile job.

There are some instances of strikes that we should not support like managers striking in Venezuela, sectarian strikes and so on. If the police do go on strike (which I really doubt will happen) then they should receive no support from the working class for the reasons stressed many times above. If they do go on strike they should let the miners steam in and break up the pickets so they can get their revenge on the bastards.

redarmyfaction38

16th December 2007, 22:01

Originally posted by Van [email protected] 16, 2007 11:53 am
A lot of people in this thread seem to have an easy, quick-fix solution ready... I guess that's what happens when one fits the entire world into a black and white ideological view. THEY are ALL bastards, so they are objectively useless to class struggle. A cop on strike is no better than a cop who hits you with a baton, apparently.

In the Netherlands, cops are currently also striking, for a better labour agreement. In fact, because of this, this weekend's two vital football matches of Ajax - PSV and Feyenoord - AZ had to be cancelled, because the public safety can't be guaranteed. The Dutch FA was crying the loudest, because now there are no cops to do the dirty work of protecting their interests from their fans.

But I guess that they are also all dirty bastards.
so, why would the odd cop be seen buying "the socialist " at the climate change demonstration?
if they are so reactionary, why are they asking for a ballot in the first place?
wht would they even consider affiliating to the tuc?
that is not the action of reactionaries, that is the reaction of a group of workers recognising where their industrial strenght lies.
i don't know about all the "cop haters" on here, but, i for one, have been on the wrong end of a police baton on more than one occassion, some political occassions and some just having a bit of "fun".
i can assure you, i was treated no different on political battering than i was on mischief battering.
in fact, when i got arrested for both, political discussion ensued.
now, you can either chant all coppers are bastards or you put aside your prejudices and try to bring this particular group of public servants back into the fold.

RebelDog

16th December 2007, 22:30

Originally posted by redarmyfaction38+December 16, 2007 10:00 pm--> (redarmyfaction38 @ December 16, 2007 10:00 pm)
Van [email protected] 16, 2007 11:53 am
A lot of people in this thread seem to have an easy, quick-fix solution ready... I guess that's what happens when one fits the entire world into a black and white ideological view. THEY are ALL bastards, so they are objectively useless to class struggle. A cop on strike is no better than a cop who hits you with a baton, apparently.

In the Netherlands, cops are currently also striking, for a better labour agreement. In fact, because of this, this weekend's two vital football matches of Ajax - PSV and Feyenoord - AZ had to be cancelled, because the public safety can't be guaranteed. The Dutch FA was crying the loudest, because now there are no cops to do the dirty work of protecting their interests from their fans.

But I guess that they are also all dirty bastards.
so, why would the odd cop be seen buying "the socialist " at the climate change demonstration?
if they are so reactionary, why are they asking for a ballot in the first place?
wht would they even consider affiliating to the tuc?
that is not the action of reactionaries, that is the reaction of a group of workers recognising where their industrial strenght lies.
i don't know about all the "cop haters" on here, but, i for one, have been on the wrong end of a police baton on more than one occassion, some political occassions and some just having a bit of "fun".
i can assure you, i was treated no different on political battering than i was on mischief battering.
in fact, when i got arrested for both, political discussion ensued.
now, you can either chant all coppers are bastards or you put aside your prejudices and try to bring this particular group of public servants back into the fold. [/b]
You have just inadvertently shown what is different and wrong about the police. Why should they treat people who are involved in political demonstration in the same way as people disturbing the peace or committing assaults in town centres? How many truncheons have met the head of a worker who is fighting for his class and some social justice as apposed to the bosses that cause the misery. Why don't the police attack the bosses? They are the greedy, ruthless bastards that cause all the trouble in the first place. The British miners didn't even want anything more than what they had, they wanted to save the pits and their communities and they were crushed by the state and the police are an essential part of that. How different would the outcome of the miners strike been if there had been no police to beat up miners, harass them and their families, jail union leaders and all the other things they done in that war against the working class? They used to hold up their pay-packets to show the starving miners how much they were making with all the overtime. The police are fucking scum in my book and if I see them picketing I would gladly cross that picket line. Fuck them all.

redarmyfaction38

16th December 2007, 22:47

Originally posted by The Dissenter+December 16, 2007 10:29 pm--> (The Dissenter @ December 16, 2007 10:29 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 10:00 pm

Van [email protected] 16, 2007 11:53 am
A lot of people in this thread seem to have an easy, quick-fix solution ready... I guess that's what happens when one fits the entire world into a black and white ideological view. THEY are ALL bastards, so they are objectively useless to class struggle. A cop on strike is no better than a cop who hits you with a baton, apparently.

In the Netherlands, cops are currently also striking, for a better labour agreement. In fact, because of this, this weekend's two vital football matches of Ajax - PSV and Feyenoord - AZ had to be cancelled, because the public safety can't be guaranteed. The Dutch FA was crying the loudest, because now there are no cops to do the dirty work of protecting their interests from their fans.

But I guess that they are also all dirty bastards.
so, why would the odd cop be seen buying "the socialist " at the climate change demonstration?
if they are so reactionary, why are they asking for a ballot in the first place?
wht would they even consider affiliating to the tuc?
that is not the action of reactionaries, that is the reaction of a group of workers recognising where their industrial strenght lies.
i don't know about all the "cop haters" on here, but, i for one, have been on the wrong end of a police baton on more than one occassion, some political occassions and some just having a bit of "fun".
i can assure you, i was treated no different on political battering than i was on mischief battering.
in fact, when i got arrested for both, political discussion ensued.
now, you can either chant all coppers are bastards or you put aside your prejudices and try to bring this particular group of public servants back into the fold.
You have just inadvertently shown what is different and wrong about the police. Why should they treat people who are involved in political demonstration in the same way as people disturbing the peace or committing assaults in town centres? How many truncheons have met the head of a worker who is fighting for his class and some social justice as apposed to the bosses that cause the misery. Why don't the police attack the bosses? They are the greedy, ruthless bastards that cause all the trouble in the first place. The British miners didn't even want anything more than what they had, they wanted to save the pits and their communities and they were crushed by the state and the police are an essential part of that. How different would the outcome of the miners strike been if there had been no police to beat up miners, harass them and their families, jail union leaders and all the other things they done in that war against the working class? They used to hold up their pay-packets to show the starving miners how much they were making with all the overtime. The police are fucking scum in my book and if I see them picketing I would gladly cross that picket line. Fuck them all. [/b]
i was there mate, the wounds still run deep, however, you miss the point, at that time, the police were rewarded for their "loyalty" to the british state by fat pay packets and above inflation pay rises.
incidentally, one of the reasons policemen were imported into the coalfields from the south and udm areas was local police refused to carry out the kind of "policing" the state demanded. even during the miners strike there was disaffection amongst ordinary community based police officers, i was even introduced to a senior police officer that resigned his post because of the political role he was asked to persue!
you cannot dismiss, out of hand, any section of the working class as reactionary.
experience determines their actions and political consciousness.
also, a fact that might or might not be relevant, as a southern based football supporter, we often waved our hands in the air chanting "loads of money", even though we were less well paid than our northern counterparts, winding each other up is part and parcel of working class existence.

RebelDog

16th December 2007, 23:07

Originally posted by redarmyfaction38+December 16, 2007 10:46 pm--> (redarmyfaction38 @ December 16, 2007 10:46 pm)
Originally posted by The [email protected] 16, 2007 10:29 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 10:00 pm

Van [email protected] 16, 2007 11:53 am
A lot of people in this thread seem to have an easy, quick-fix solution ready... I guess that's what happens when one fits the entire world into a black and white ideological view. THEY are ALL bastards, so they are objectively useless to class struggle. A cop on strike is no better than a cop who hits you with a baton, apparently.

In the Netherlands, cops are currently also striking, for a better labour agreement. In fact, because of this, this weekend's two vital football matches of Ajax - PSV and Feyenoord - AZ had to be cancelled, because the public safety can't be guaranteed. The Dutch FA was crying the loudest, because now there are no cops to do the dirty work of protecting their interests from their fans.

But I guess that they are also all dirty bastards.
so, why would the odd cop be seen buying "the socialist " at the climate change demonstration?
if they are so reactionary, why are they asking for a ballot in the first place?
wht would they even consider affiliating to the tuc?
that is not the action of reactionaries, that is the reaction of a group of workers recognising where their industrial strenght lies.
i don't know about all the "cop haters" on here, but, i for one, have been on the wrong end of a police baton on more than one occassion, some political occassions and some just having a bit of "fun".
i can assure you, i was treated no different on political battering than i was on mischief battering.
in fact, when i got arrested for both, political discussion ensued.
now, you can either chant all coppers are bastards or you put aside your prejudices and try to bring this particular group of public servants back into the fold.
You have just inadvertently shown what is different and wrong about the police. Why should they treat people who are involved in political demonstration in the same way as people disturbing the peace or committing assaults in town centres? How many truncheons have met the head of a worker who is fighting for his class and some social justice as apposed to the bosses that cause the misery. Why don't the police attack the bosses? They are the greedy, ruthless bastards that cause all the trouble in the first place. The British miners didn't even want anything more than what they had, they wanted to save the pits and their communities and they were crushed by the state and the police are an essential part of that. How different would the outcome of the miners strike been if there had been no police to beat up miners, harass them and their families, jail union leaders and all the other things they done in that war against the working class? They used to hold up their pay-packets to show the starving miners how much they were making with all the overtime. The police are fucking scum in my book and if I see them picketing I would gladly cross that picket line. Fuck them all.
i was there mate, the wounds still run deep, however, you miss the point, at that time, the police were rewarded for their "loyalty" to the british state by fat pay packets and above inflation pay rises.
incidentally, one of the reasons policemen were imported into the coalfields from the south and udm areas was local police refused to carry out the kind of "policing" the state demanded. even during the miners strike there was disaffection amongst ordinary community based police officers, i was even introduced to a senior police officer that resigned his post because of the political role he was asked to persue!
you cannot dismiss, out of hand, any section of the working class as reactionary.
experience determines their actions and political consciousness.
also, a fact that might or might not be relevant, as a southern based football supporter, we often waved our hands in the air chanting "loads of money", even though we were less well paid than our northern counterparts, winding each other up is part and parcel of working class existence. [/b]
I don't know how you have come to these conclusions but a few anecdotes about a few policemen understanding what they were doing was wrong is not going to convince the people here to see it your way. When the police intimidated the miners by showing their pay-packets it wasn't a bit of banter between working class people. It was a shower of gloating low-life bastards (who were at the frontline of this war against the working class) exacerbating the whole situation and reveling in the misery of people fighting for survival. If you were there as you claim you must have had your eyes shut or you were one of the coppers.

Splended

18th December 2007, 21:25

The police are an “armed body of men” (and women) of the capitalist state and they are defiantly the enemy of the working class, no matter what class they come from. Most of them understand this and are content with their role in the state. They are the queen’s ‘constables’, defenders of inequality, thug enforcers at evictions of oppressed families and workers strikes. They spy on community organisations and political movements in the working class. They fit people up on false charges and will beat senseless, lock-up or shoot dead anyone their masters tell them to. So if this special violent section of the state are arguing or fighting with their political masters we should be pleased. We don’t have to “support” them, simply because we don’t, “support” them, but we should encourage them (if at all possible) to fight the political head of the state. And a defeat for the government would encourage others to “have a go at it” and expose more weakness in the state as a whole.

"Smash the coppers" but smash the government more!