Chavezistas

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Read the details here:

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2007/12/ms-...e-chavista.html (http://leninology.blogspot.com/2007/12/ms-chavista-que-nunca-more-chavista.html)

[SouthernBelle82]

Only thing I was surprised to learn was this was Chavez's first political loss since the 1992 coup attempt that failed. Not too bad. Only thing I really agreed with was not having term limits. I find them to be undemocratic and not really the people deciding. However I disagree with the idea of the president appointing governor's. That's not democratic in my view. I'm glad that Chavez is accepting his defeat and not pressing the issue and he could always try again if he is that passionate about it.

[KC]

How is not having term limits undemocratic? It's more democratic.

[SouthernBelle82]

Originally posted by Zampanò@December 09, 2007 12:33 am
How is not having term limits undemocratic? It's more democratic.
Uhm if you read what I said I said the only thing I supported was them removing term limits and how I find them undemocratic. What I find undemocratic is the president appointing governor's. I find term limits undemocratic is what I said.

[Bilan]

there's already an on going discussion of this.
:P


Link. (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=73901)

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Thanks for that, but this is a different discussion.

:P squared!

[Bilan]

Well, touche!
hehe

♥

[Herman]

This is merely a small setback. Nothing has been lost and in fact, much has been gained. The opposition now has been taken away from their main argument: Chavez is not a dictator and Venezuela is not a dictatorship.

So what happens now?

There are several things to do. Serious changes have to take place within the movement.

Here are a few things that must be done:

- A purge/sweep of the moderates/right-wingers who occupy prominent positions within the governmental institutions. These people hold back the bolivarian revolution, while they give a bad reputation to the whole movement by wearing golden watches, expensive suits and in general living in luxury. It is in their interest to keep the revolution from going too far.

- The complete construction of the PSUV. As it is now, it is still not a party per se. The old MVR was a "vote machine" and was able to mobilize with ease. The new PSUV must be fully constructed, disciplined, with a defined ideology and institutions. It must also participate in the communal councils and universities, organizing events and educating, teaching, informing the students, poor and workers.

- Increase of the minimum salary, increased worker's rights, increase in public funding, especially in the "misiones". More expropiation of factories and more support to workers who occupy factories.

- Complete crackdown on "Globovision" and other any other private media who have been sabotaging, lying, outright calling for violence, etc.

[marxist_god]

Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2007 12:31 am
Only thing I was surprised to learn was this was Chavez's first political loss since the 1992 coup attempt that failed. Not too bad. Only thing I really agreed with was not having term limits. I find them to be undemocratic and not really the people deciding. However I disagree with the idea of the president appointing governor's. That's not democratic in my view. I'm glad that Chavez is accepting his defeat and not pressing the issue and he could always try again if he is that passionate about it.

Un-limited elections, are not un-limited kingship. Let's be specific here my friend. Un-limited electoral systems means that people decide if they want their president un-limited times, if people don't want him, they have option to send him home. Unlimited electoral systems are nothing new, or crazy, France, UK, and other countries have them.

marxist_god

[marxist_god]

Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2007 11:57 am
This is merely a small setback. Nothing has been lost and in fact, much has been gained. The opposition now has been taken away from their main argument: Chavez is not a dictator and Venezuela is not a dictatorship.

So what happens now?

There are several things to do. Serious changes have to take place within the movement.

Here are a few things that must be done:

- A purge/sweep of the moderates/right-wingers who occupy prominent positions within the governmental institutions. These people hold back the bolivarian revolution, while they give a bad reputation to the whole movement by wearing golden watches, expensive suits and in general living in luxury. It is in their interest to keep the revolution from going too far.

- The complete construction of the PSUV. As it is now, it is still not a party per se. The old MVR was a "vote machine" and was able to mobilize with ease. The new PSUV must be fully constructed, disciplined, with a defined ideology and institutions. It must also participate in the communal councils and universities, organizing events and educating, teaching, informing the students, poor and workers.

- Increase of the minimum salary, increased worker's rights, increase in public funding, especially in the "misiones". More expropiation of factories and more support to workers who occupy factories.

- Complete crackdown on "Globovision" and other any other private media who have been sabotaging, lying, outright calling for violence, etc.


Well let's go ahead and call Castro, Evo Morales and Chavez dictators. However we would have to call USA, Mexico, UK and other capitalist countries dictatorships too.

But the difference between a capitalist-dictatorship like USA, Mexico, Colombia, Dominican Republic, Salvador, UK and other capitalist countries is that a capitalist dictatorship is a dictatorship that *benefits* the small rich class, and *hurts*, the majority (middle and lower classes)


A socialist-dictatorship *hurts* the rich, and *benefits* the majority (the lower and middle classes) that is the difference between a capitalist plutocratic dictatorship and a socialistic one

marxist_god

[Herman]

Well let's go ahead and call Castro, Evo Morales and Chavez dictators. However we would have to call USA, Mexico, UK and other capitalist countries dictatorships too.

But the difference between a capitalist-dictatorship like USA, Mexico, Colombia, Dominican Republic, Salvador, UK and other capitalist countries is that a capitalist dictatorship is a dictatorship that *benefits* the small rich class, and *hurts*, the majority (middle and lower classes)


A socialist-dictatorship *hurts* the rich, and *benefits* the majority (the lower and middle classes) that is the difference between a capitalist plutocratic dictatorship and a socialistic one

marxist_god

So... what exactly are you trying to say here?

[marxist_god]

Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2007 11:36 pm

Well let's go ahead and call Castro, Evo Morales and Chavez dictators. However we would have to call USA, Mexico, UK and other capitalist countries dictatorships too.

But the difference between a capitalist-dictatorship like USA, Mexico, Colombia, Dominican Republic, Salvador, UK and other capitalist countries is that a capitalist dictatorship is a dictatorship that *benefits* the small rich class, and *hurts*, the majority (middle and lower classes)


A socialist-dictatorship *hurts* the rich, and *benefits* the majority (the lower and middle classes) that is the difference between a capitalist plutocratic dictatorship and a socialistic one

marxist_god

So... what exactly are you trying to say here?

That socialism is a "proletarian dictatorship" (workers state, a gov. to serve exclusively the workers and people) while capitalism is a "capitalist dictatorship" (plutocracy)

marxist_god

[SouthernBelle82]

Originally posted by marxist_god+December 09, 2007 08:27 pm--> (marxist_god @ December 09, 2007 08:27 pm)
[email protected] 09, 2007 12:31 am
Only thing I was surprised to learn was this was Chavez's first political loss since the 1992 coup attempt that failed. Not too bad. Only thing I really agreed with was not having term limits. I find them to be undemocratic and not really the people deciding. However I disagree with the idea of the president appointing governor's. That's not democratic in my view. I'm glad that Chavez is accepting his defeat and not pressing the issue and he could always try again if he is that passionate about it.

Un-limited elections, are not un-limited kingship. Let's be specific here my friend. Un-limited electoral systems means that people decide if they want their president un-limited times, if people don't want him, they have option to send him home. Unlimited electoral systems are nothing new, or crazy, France, UK, and other countries have them.

marxist_god [/b]
Please go back and read what I said. No where did I say I was against getting rid of term limits. I've at least twice have said I am not for them. Please read again: what I wasn't for was for the president appointing governor's. That should be up to the people. PLEASE for all things holy read what I've written k? All you're doing is repeating what I've already said.

[MT5678]

Chavez isn't a dictator. We all know that. But he is too soft.
Like Herman, I support the purge of capitalist-careerists in the PSUV, opportunistic labor leaders that betrayed the workers, and the owners of private capital. After seeing the neoliberal hell that the white bourgeois up North put Latin America thru, I would argue that it would be justified. Remember what Eugene Debs stated: If the capitalists begin the program, we shall end it.

Chavez should show the evidence of Operation PLIERS and the stillborn Operation Tenaza (another coup? ay-ay-ay). With this, and America's lovely history of coups and economic imperialism, he could argue for the destruction of the bourgeois system he has so far had to work in.

Chavez should then turn Venezuela into a one-party state with the PSUV as the "Party". Of course, officers are democratically elected. These officers then choose a General Secretary.

A personality cult should help get support for Chavez. I can see the signs now: Chairman Chavez is the red sun in our hearts! We shall thoroughly destroy the Yankee-Imperialist reactionary line!

[ComradeR]

While I agree with the idea that they should purge the cappies from the PSUV I can see why Chavez and his allies are hesitant to do so. At lest it looks like to me is that if it is done prematurely (as in the movement is still fragile) would lead to complete international isolation and civil war that would destroy any advances Venezuela has made.

Originally posted by MT5678
A personality cult should help get support for Chavez. I can see the signs now: Chairman Chavez is the red sun in our hearts! We shall thoroughly destroy the Yankee-Imperialist reactionary line!
I sincerely hope your joking.

[RedAnarchist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 06:32 am
Chavez isn't a dictator. We all know that. But he is too soft.
Like Herman, I support the purge of capitalist-careerists in the PSUV, opportunistic labor leaders that betrayed the workers, and the owners of private capital. After seeing the neoliberal hell that the white bourgeois up North put Latin America thru, I would argue that it would be justified. Remember what Eugene Debs stated: If the capitalists begin the program, we shall end it.

Chavez should show the evidence of Operation PLIERS and the stillborn Operation Tenaza (another coup? ay-ay-ay). With this, and America's lovely history of coups and economic imperialism, he could argue for the destruction of the bourgeois system he has so far had to work in.

Chavez should then turn Venezuela into a one-party state with the PSUV as the "Party". Of course, officers are democratically elected. These officers then choose a General Secretary.

A personality cult should help get support for Chavez. I can see the signs now: Chairman Chavez is the red sun in our hearts! We shall thoroughly destroy the Yankee-Imperialist reactionary line!
Well, we all know how weel that worked out in the USSR, China, Cambodia etc :rolleyes:

[bootleg42]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 06:32 am
Chavez isn't a dictator. We all know that. But he is too soft.
Like Herman, I support the purge of capitalist-careerists in the PSUV, opportunistic labor leaders that betrayed the workers, and the owners of private capital. After seeing the neoliberal hell that the white bourgeois up North put Latin America thru, I would argue that it would be justified. Remember what Eugene Debs stated: If the capitalists begin the program, we shall end it.

Chavez should show the evidence of Operation PLIERS and the stillborn Operation Tenaza (another coup? ay-ay-ay). With this, and America's lovely history of coups and economic imperialism, he could argue for the destruction of the bourgeois system he has so far had to work in.

Chavez should then turn Venezuela into a one-party state with the PSUV as the "Party". Of course, officers are democratically elected. These officers then choose a General Secretary.

A personality cult should help get support for Chavez. I can see the signs now: Chairman Chavez is the red sun in our hearts! We shall thoroughly destroy the Yankee-Imperialist reactionary line!
You were making a good post until that last paragraph.

Plus Chavez himself has also tried to get the people to think of "Chavismo sin Chavez" or "Chavismo without Chavez". He's tried his best to avoid a personality cult so I hope and doubt any personality cult is going to happen.

[marxist_god]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 06:32 am
Chavez isn't a dictator. We all know that. But he is too soft.
Like Herman, I support the purge of capitalist-careerists in the PSUV, opportunistic labor leaders that betrayed the workers, and the owners of private capital. After seeing the neoliberal hell that the white bourgeois up North put Latin America thru, I would argue that it would be justified. Remember what Eugene Debs stated: If the capitalists begin the program, we shall end it.

Chavez should show the evidence of Operation PLIERS and the stillborn Operation Tenaza (another coup? ay-ay-ay). With this, and America's lovely history of coups and economic imperialism, he could argue for the destruction of the bourgeois system he has so far had to work in.

Chavez should then turn Venezuela into a one-party state with the PSUV as the "Party". Of course, officers are democratically elected. These officers then choose a General Secretary.

A personality cult should help get support for Chavez. I can see the signs now: Chairman Chavez is the red sun in our hearts! We shall thoroughly destroy the Yankee-Imperialist reactionary line!

Hello my friends: reality is too hard, it is too hard to implement socialism, a society is complex, things are hard, people are not easy, life is real and complex, it is not easy to apply a socialist system

marxist_god

[letsgetfree]

Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2007 11:57 am
This is merely a small setback. Nothing has been lost and in fact, much has been gained. The opposition now has been taken away from their main argument: Chavez is not a dictator and Venezuela is not a dictatorship.

So what happens now?

There are several things to do. Serious changes have to take place within the movement.

Here are a few things that must be done:

- A purge/sweep of the moderates/right-wingers who occupy prominent positions within the governmental institutions. These people hold back the bolivarian revolution, while they give a bad reputation to the whole movement by wearing golden watches, expensive suits and in general living in luxury. It is in their interest to keep the revolution from going too far.

- The complete construction of the PSUV. As it is now, it is still not a party per se. The old MVR was a "vote machine" and was able to mobilize with ease. The new PSUV must be fully constructed, disciplined, with a defined ideology and institutions. It must also participate in the communal councils and universities, organizing events and educating, teaching, informing the students, poor and workers.

- Increase of the minimum salary, increased worker's rights, increase in public funding, especially in the "misiones". More expropiation of factories and more support to workers who occupy factories.

- Complete crackdown on "Globovision" and other any other private media who have been sabotaging, lying, outright calling for violence, etc.
lol

this guy says chavez isnt a dictator than asks chavez to do things that would make him a dictator

very stalinist post