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Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg
8th December 2007, 11:01
Reichstag Fire

At 21:15 on the night of February 27, 1933, a Berlin fire station received an alarm call that the Reichstag building, the assembly location of the German Parliament, was ablaze. The fire was started in the Session Chamber, and by the time the police and firemen arrived, the main Chamber of Deputies was in flames. Inside the building, the police quickly found a shirtless Marinus van der Lubbe. Van der Lubbe was a Dutch Jewish insurrectionist council communist and unemployed bricklayer who had recently arrived in Germany, ostensibly to carry out his political activities.

Dispute about van der Lubbe's role in the Reichstag Fire

Historians generally agree that van der Lubbe was involved in the Reichstag fire. The extent of the damage, however, has led to considerable debate over whether he acted alone. Considering the speed with which the fire engulfed the building, van der Lubbe's reputation as a mentally disturbed arsonist hungry for fame, and cryptic comments by leading Nazi officials, it was generally believed at the time the Nazi hierarchy was involved in order to reap political gain. Some have contended that van der Lubbe acted alone, and the Reichstag fire was merely a stroke of good luck for the Nazis. It is alleged that the idea he was a "half-wit" or "mentally disturbed" was propaganda spread by the Communist party to distance themselves from an insurrectionist anti-fascist who was once a member of the party and took action where they failed to. The historian Hans Mommsen concluded that the Nazi leadership was in a state of panic the night of the Reichstag fire, and they seemed to have regarded the Reichstag Fire as a confirmation that all their propaganda about a Communist revolution being imminent was actually true.

British reporter Sefton Delmer witnessed the events of that night firsthand, and his account of the fire provides a number of details. Delmer viewed van der Lubbe as solely responsible, that the Nazis sought to make it appear to be a "Communist gang" who set the fire, whereas the Communists sought to make it appear that van der Lubbe was working for the Nazis, and that they had plotted the whole thing.

In 1960, the West German Social Democratic journalist Fritz Tobias published a series of articles in Der Spiegel, later turned into a book, which showed that Van Der Lubbe had acted alone. At the time, Tobias was widely attacked for his articles, which showed that Van der Lubbe was a pyromaniac with a long history of burning down buildings or attempting to burn down buildings. In particular, Tobias established that Van der Lubbe had attempted to burn down a number of buildings in the days prior to February 27. In March 1973, the Swiss historian Walter Hofer organized a conference intended to rebut the claims made by Tobias. At the conference, Hofer claimed to have found evidence that some of the detectives who had investigated the fire may have been Nazis. Mommsen commented on Hofer's claims by stating "Professor Hofer's rather helpless statement that the accomplices of Van der Lubbe 'could only have been Nazis' is tacit admission that the committee did not actually obtain any positive evidence in regard to the alleged accomplices' identity".


Who ever did it, it had hude political conciquences...



The day after the fire, Hitler asked for and received from President Hindenburg the Reichstag Fire Decree, signed into law by Hindenburg using Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution. The Reichstag Fire Decree suspended most civil liberties in Germany. As a consequence of the Reichstag Fire Decree, the Communist Party of Germany was banned on March 1, 1933 under the grounds that they were preparing a putsch (revolution/uprising). In the March 5, 1933 Reichstag elections, the Nazis increased their share of the vote to 44 percent, which gave the Nazis and their allies (the German National People's Party who won 8% of the vote) a majority of 52% in the Reichstag. The gained form porpoganda spread against the socialists and the baning of thier magazines and papers. The Nazis emerged as winners, but they had fallen short of their goal, which was 50%–55% of the vote. This would make it more difficult to obtain the two-thirds majority needed to pass the Enabling Act, to allow Hitler to rule without the reichstag. Nevertheless, the Nazis were able to capitalize on national security concerns and obtain the additional support needed, thus granting Chancellor Hitler the right to rule by decree. The vote took place on March 23, 1933, and only the Social Democrats opposed the measure, which came into effect on March 27. Had the Communist Party participated, its representatives would have contributed 17% of the Reichstag votes, persumably all against the meassure. Instead, their representatives were under arrest for their suspect role in the Reichstag Fire.


What are your opinions on this.....?

Devrim
8th December 2007, 14:16
This is an interesting (but badly translated) article on some of the background:Dutch Council Communism and Van der Lubbe Burning the Reichstag - The question of "exemplary acts" (http://libcom.org/library/reichstag-fire-dutch-communism)
Devrim

Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg
8th December 2007, 18:02
Good link....an interesting article

Comrade Rage
8th December 2007, 19:56
Originally posted by Y Chwildro Comiwnyddol [email protected] 08, 2007 05:00 am
What are your opinions on this.....?
Well, I like most people believe van der Lubbe was framed, and that this was, in fact started by the Sturmabteilung (Brown Shirts). There were reports that policemen saw two brownshirts leave the building shortly before they noticed a fire, not to mention that the watchman on duty near Hermann Goering's office in the Reichstag was dismissed by Goering himself. (Goering was a deputy from Preussen, or Prussia in English.)

Now this could really just be one hell of a coincidence, but I severely doubt that.

Devrim
8th December 2007, 20:03
Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 08, 2007 07:55 pm
Well, I like most people believe van der Lubbe was framed,
The fact that he himself said that he had done it is evidence against this.

Devrim

Comrade Rage
8th December 2007, 20:07
Originally posted by Devrim+December 08, 2007 02:02 pm--> (Devrim @ December 08, 2007 02:02 pm)
COMRADE [email protected] 08, 2007 07:55 pm
Well, I like most people believe van der Lubbe was framed,
The fact that he himself said that he had done it is evidence against this.

Devrim [/b]
Given the nature of Nazi intimidation techinques, I highly doubt he was telling the truth.

Devrim
8th December 2007, 21:01
Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 08, 2007 08:06 pm
Given the nature of Nazi intimidation techinques, I highly doubt he was telling the truth.
It is strange then that latter when he went on hunger strike he didn't retract his confession. Going on hunger strike is not usually the action you associate with someone who has been broken by torture.

Devrim

Comrade Rage
8th December 2007, 21:04
Originally posted by Devrim+December 08, 2007 03:00 pm--> (Devrim @ December 08, 2007 03:00 pm)
COMRADE [email protected] 08, 2007 08:06 pm
Given the nature of Nazi intimidation techinques, I highly doubt he was telling the truth.
It is strange then that latter when he went on hunger strike he didn't retract his confession. Going on hunger strike is not usually the action you associate with someone who has been broken by torture.

Devrim [/b]
I'm not saying he was necessarily tortured, just intimidated.

BTW, what do you think happened?

Devrim
8th December 2007, 21:16
Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 08, 2007 09:03 pm
I'm not saying he was necessarily tortured, just intimidated.


It still wouldn't make sense.


BTW, what do you think happened?

Van der Lubbe obviously did it. I don't know whether he acted alone as he claimed, and I can imagine him lying protect his comrades.

Devrim

Comrade Rage
8th December 2007, 21:25
Originally posted by Devrim+December 08, 2007 03:15 pm--> (Devrim @ December 08, 2007 03:15 pm)
Originally posted by COMRADE CRUM+December 08, 2007 09:03 pm--> (COMRADE CRUM @ December 08, 2007 09:03 pm) I'm not saying he was necessarily tortured, just intimidated.
[/b]
It still wouldn't make sense. [/b]
Well, the guy was a nutter to an extent...


[email protected]


moi
BTW, what do you think happened?

Van der Lubbe obviously did it. I don't know whether he acted alone as he claimed, and I can imagine him lying protect his comrades.

Devrim
I don't believe he did it, besides--what about the question about the nightwatchman?

Comrade Rage
8th December 2007, 21:29
I also forgot to add this other bit of 'coincidence' to my argument:


Originally posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire
Hitler, Goebbels, the Vice-Chancellor Franz von Papen and Prince Heinrich Günther von Hohenzollern were taken by car to the Reichstag where they were met by Hermann Göring. Göring told Hitler "This is a Communist outrage! One of the Communist culprits has been arrested".

Odd that he was down there at 9 at night, isn't it?

jaffe
8th December 2007, 21:39
Originally posted by COMRADE CRUM+December 08, 2007 08:06 pm--> (COMRADE CRUM @ December 08, 2007 08:06 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 02:02 pm

COMRADE [email protected] 08, 2007 07:55 pm
Well, I like most people believe van der Lubbe was framed,
The fact that he himself said that he had done it is evidence against this.

Devrim
Given the nature of Nazi intimidation techinques, I highly doubt he was telling the truth. [/b]
hihi yesterday i bought a little book about it and look what appears on revleft :rolleyes:

yes actually he did it. He made several statement in which he said he did it.
yes he was framed...by both nazis and stalinists.

Van Der Lubbe was an active member of the CPH (communist party holland) but quit because he was disappointed with the bureaucratic way the party leaders were acting. He said he wanted a revolution from below.
Because of that he turned into a council-communist and joined severall dutch council-communist party's.

When he ran out of the burning Reichstag he was followed by a policeman and the housekeeper. When the housekeeper asked why did he do it, he said: 'out of protest, protest'. When the police started interrogate him he immediately told he did it for a political reason. He wanted to trigger the german proleriat with his action.

But before his trial many political partys started to paint van der Lubbe as a pyroman, madmen, somebody told he was a fascist in Holland and in the Brownbook (book against fascism one part is good the other sucks) it was told that M. van der Lubbe was the gay slave of SA leader Ernst Rohm.

In protest van der Lubbes friends published roodboek (redbook). In this book they refuted the lies from Brownbook. Dutch communists from CPN hated it a said it was pure trash!

He was accused of setting the Reichstag on fire with a few bulgarian communists. Dimitrov being the most important of them, he was the leader of the west-european bureau. But during the Reichstag fire he was on the train from Munchen to Berlin. During the trial it got clear that Dimitrov knew what was comming, he accused van der Lubbe of being an enemy of the workng class. He and the three other bulgarian communists were set free because there was a 'lack of evidence'. M. van der Lubbe told he was the only one who did it but. Because of his hungerstrike he was very tired and weakened. And when he found out his trial was a fake one, used by communists and nazis to blame each other for setting the Reichstag on fire he gave up.

Devrim
8th December 2007, 21:59
Originally posted by COMRADE CRUM+December 08, 2007 09:28 pm--> (COMRADE CRUM @ December 08, 2007 09:28 pm) I also forgot to add this other bit of 'coincidence' to my argument:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire
Hitler, Goebbels, the Vice-Chancellor Franz von Papen and Prince Heinrich Günther von Hohenzollern were taken by car to the Reichstag where they were met by Hermann Göring. Göring told Hitler "This is a Communist outrage! One of the Communist culprits has been arrested".

Odd that he was down there at 9 at night, isn't it? [/b]
Yes, it is really odd that someone works late. It is obviously much more convincing evidence that Van der Lubbe's confession.

Devrim

Sugar Hill Kevis
9th December 2007, 10:04
The common opinion was that he was framed, wasn't he pardoned by West Germany in the 80s?

I find it overwhelmingly unlikely that a man with about 30% vision was able to run through the Reichstag, dodging furniture etc and start fires in 7(?) places simultaneously...

Plus, I don't know if this is fact - and is probably impossible to prove knowing the destruction of records by the Nazis- but weren't the Brownshirts that were seen near the Reichstag on the night of the fire later killed during the night of the long knives?

jaffe
9th December 2007, 11:48
Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2007 10:03 am
I find it overwhelmingly unlikely that a man with about 30% vision was able to run through the Reichstag, dodging furniture etc and start fires in 7(?) places simultaneously...

It took him 15-20 minutes

Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg
9th December 2007, 19:14
Is it possible that the Nazis knew he was planing an arson (as he had tries several in the run up to the reichstag fire) and let him do so. Then using that as an excuse for their attacks on the communists freedom?


I was told that it was 20 places the fore was started in?

jaffe
9th December 2007, 20:56
No he tried to set other buildings on fire. But all these attempts failed. The Reichstag was his last shot.

IronColumn
10th December 2007, 03:06
At any rate, calling him retarded is just a ridiculous slander. He had much more sense than the millions of workers putting their faith in the Socialists or Stalin. Also the fact that the Nazis were so worried is proof they didn't plan this Reichstag fire.