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RedKnight
7th December 2007, 17:09
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with 100 stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. (Koran 24:2)

IN the last few weeks, in three widely publicized episodes, we have seen Islamic justice enacted in ways that should make Muslim moderates rise up in horror.

A 20-year-old woman from Qatif, Saudi Arabia, reported that she had been abducted by several men and repeatedly raped. But judges found the victim herself to be guilty. Her crime is called “mingling”: when she was abducted, she was in a car with a man not related to her by blood or marriage, and in Saudi Arabia, that is illegal. Last month, she was sentenced to six months in prison and 200 lashes with a bamboo cane.

Two hundred lashes are enough to kill a strong man. Women usually receive no more than 30 lashes at a time, which means that for seven weeks the “girl from Qatif,” as she’s usually described in news articles, will dread her next session with Islamic justice. When she is released, her life will certainly never return to normal: already there have been reports that her brother has tried to kill her because her “crime” has tarnished her family’s honor.

We also saw Islamic justice in action in Sudan, when a 54-year-old British teacher named Gillian Gibbons was sentenced to 15 days in jail before the government pardoned her this week; she could have faced 40 lashes. When she began a reading project with her class involving a teddy bear, Ms. Gibbons suggested the children choose a name for it. They chose Muhammad; she let them do it. This was deemed to be blasphemy.

Then there’s Taslima Nasreen, the 45-year-old Bangladeshi writer who bravely defends women’s rights in the Muslim world. Forced to flee Bangladesh, she has been living in India. But Muslim groups there want her expelled, and one has offered 500,000 rupees for her head. In August she was assaulted by Muslim militants in Hyderabad, and in recent weeks she has had to leave Calcutta and then Rajasthan. Taslima Nasreen’s visa expires next year, and she fears she will not be allowed to live in India again.

It is often said that Islam has been “hijacked” by a small extremist group of radical fundamentalists. The vast majority of Muslims are said to be moderates.

But where are the moderates? Where are the Muslim voices raised over the terrible injustice of incidents like these? How many Muslims are willing to stand up and say, in the case of the girl from Qatif, that this manner of justice is appalling, brutal and bigoted — and that no matter who said it was the right thing to do, and how long ago it was said, this should no longer be done?

Usually, Muslim groups like the Organization of the Islamic Conference are quick to defend any affront to the image of Islam. The organization, which represents 57 Muslim states, sent four ambassadors to the leader of my political party in the Netherlands asking him to expel me from Parliament after I gave a newspaper interview in 2003 noting that by Western standards some of the Prophet Muhammad’s behavior would be unconscionable. A few years later, Muslim ambassadors to Denmark protested the cartoons of Muhammad and demanded that their perpetrators be prosecuted.

But while the incidents in Saudi Arabia, Sudan and India have done more to damage the image of Islamic justice than a dozen cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad, the organizations that lined up to protest the hideous Danish offense to Islam are quiet now.

I wish there were more Islamic moderates. For example, I would welcome some guidance from that famous Muslim theologian of moderation, Tariq Ramadan. But when there is true suffering, real cruelty in the name of Islam, we hear, first, denial from all these organizations that are so concerned about Islam’s image. We hear that violence is not in the Koran, that Islam means peace, that this is a hijacking by extremists and a smear campaign and so on. But the evidence mounts up.

Islamic justice is a proud institution, one to which more than a billion people subscribe, at least in theory, and in the heart of the Islamic world it is the law of the land. But take a look at the verse above: more compelling even than the order to flog adulterers is the command that the believer show no compassion. It is this order to choose Allah above his sense of conscience and compassion that imprisons the Muslim in a mindset that is archaic and extreme.

If moderate Muslims believe there should be no compassion shown to the girl from Qatif, then what exactly makes them so moderate?

When a “moderate” Muslim’s sense of compassion and conscience collides with matters prescribed by Allah, he should choose compassion. Unless that happens much more widely, a moderate Islam will remain wishful thinking.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a former member of the Dutch Parliament and a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, is the author of “Infidel.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/07/opinion/07ali.html

graffic
9th December 2007, 18:23
I agree Moderate Muslims need to do alot more in the Media over here. The Majority of Muslims here in the UK supported the 7/7 bombings which makes the line between moderate and fundamental not as clear as it should be.

Revolution Until Victory
9th December 2007, 19:55
I agree Moderate Muslims need to do alot more in the Media over here. The Majority of Muslims here in the UK supported the 7/7 bombings which makes the line between moderate and fundamental not as clear as it should be.

no "moderate Muslims" don't need to do anything. You and your ilk need to fuck off however.

And concering the article, not surprising to see Red Knight supporting yet another pro-imperilasit, bigoted, and racist character.

spartan
9th December 2007, 20:18
no "moderate Muslims" don't need to do anything. You and your ilk need to fuck off however.
Well if the moderates dont want Islam to be seen as evil all the time then i would suggest that they do speak out against these horrific acts instead of hiding away because of fears from death threats or, even worse, being cowards and agreeing with the actions of these fundamentalist Muslims.

And concering the article, not surprising to see Red Knight supporting yet another pro-imperilasit, bigoted, and racist character.
I dont know alot about her but how is she racist?

She is a black Somalian (Who was muslim but is now atheist :) ) who is a Feminist and a member of a Liberal political party who stands up to the sexist oppression of all women (Especially muslim women who are probably the most oppressed ATM) which is currently almost universally standard for most Muslim countries.

Something tells me RUV that if the words "Islam" and "muslim" were replaced with "Christianity" and "Christian" or "Judaism" and "Jewish" respectively that you would be agreeing with Red Knight here.

Double standards anyone?

graffic
9th December 2007, 20:18
no "moderate Muslims" don't need to do anything. You and your ilk need to fuck off however.

"your Ilk" - You mean anyone who isnt Muslim?

Revolution Until Victory
9th December 2007, 21:40
"your Ilk" - You mean anyone who isnt Muslim?

:lol:

I mean imperialist, racist, anti-communist, bigoted, Zionist scum of the earth.

Revolution Until Victory
9th December 2007, 22:17
Well if the moderates dont want Islam to be seen as evil all the time then i would suggest that they do speak out against these horrific acts instead of hiding away because of fears from death threats or, even worse, being cowards and agreeing with the actions of these fundamentalist Muslims.

no, those "moderates" (an imperialsit term) got nothing to prove to the racist imperialists.


I dont know alot about her but how is she racist?

That scum is a member of the Americn Enerpirse Institue, an imperialsit, racist, and neo-con "think tank" that, according to their own website, have the mission of "to defend the principles and improve the institutions of American freedom and democratic capitalism — limited government, private enterprise, individual liberty and responsibility, vigilant and effective defense and foreign policies, political accountability, and open debate" Not surprised to see you supporting imperialist, racist scum as long as they demonize the head-chopping, brown Muslims.

This is the "About" page of their website (http://www.aei.org/about/filter.all/default.asp)

now, what would be your next question? how are the imperialists racist?? honsetly, I won't be surprised if you and that other RedKnight idiot asked such question.


who is a Feminist

:lol:

damn, I knew you were the funniest member here, should've voted for you!!!

but as they said, you are hiliarious without intention ;)

Great Helmsman
9th December 2007, 22:36
If a black man commits a crime, is the entire black community supposed to come out and apologize for him? So how come Muslims are expected to?

Hirsi is a well-known spokesperson for European fascists and neoconservatives in the U.S. Real feminists don't support naked imperialism and bigotry of this sort. Nevermind some of the very same groups she attacks are some of the most principled anti-imperialists.

Revolution Until Victory
9th December 2007, 22:38
If a black man commits a crime, is the entire black community supposed to come out and apologize for him? So how come Muslims are expected to?

well said, comrade. Why would the black community around the first world care what the white racists and neo-nazis think of them? they got nothing to prove to those scum.

synthesis
9th December 2007, 22:44
I agree; you don't see moderate Christians jumping over each other to distance themselves from the abortion clinic bombings.

spartan
9th December 2007, 23:13
If a black man commits a crime, is the entire black community supposed to come out and apologize for him? So how come Muslims are expected to?
Well when you put it like that i suppose that you are right.

I just never thought of it like that before myself.

RedKnight
10th December 2007, 00:32
I just put it up for discussion. Ali's views are her own. I do not necessarily concur with all of her points of view, as I oppose western militarism, as well as Muslim terrorism.

Os Cangaceiros
10th December 2007, 00:41
Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2007 11:12 pm

If a black man commits a crime, is the entire black community supposed to come out and apologize for him? So how come Muslims are expected to?
Well when you put it like that i suppose that you are right.

I just never thought of it like that before myself.
That's kind of a ridiculous comparison, for obvious reasons. There is no train of thought or philosophy that goes into being "black". However, Islam, like all organized religions, is a distinct philosophy on life, and one that I consider oppresive, as is the case with all religion. I would assume that oppresive structures of thought should be opposed and denounced.

That being said though, I don't think Muslims have an obligation to apologize for the actions of fanatics.

Andy Bowden
10th December 2007, 12:27
The majority of Muslims in the UK did not back the 7/7 bombings. That is bollocks.

spartan
10th December 2007, 13:54
The majority of Muslims in the UK did not back the 7/7 bombings. That is bollocks.
I agree.

The fact is where did these people get the evidence to make a statement such as "The majority of British muslims supported the 7/7 bombings"?

Did they ask every single British muslim?

Somehow i dont think so :lol:

The fact is it isnt the job of moderate muslims to come out and denounce these terrorist attacks.

And just because they dont come out and denounce them it doesnt mean that they agree with the terrorists.

graffic
10th December 2007, 16:50
Originally posted by Andy [email protected] 10, 2007 12:26 pm
The majority of Muslims in the UK did not back the 7/7 bombings. That is bollocks.
I apologise, I heard off someone that it was the majority.

The correct statistic is 1/4 - which is still shocking.

Andy Bowden
10th December 2007, 17:07
What poll is it - I presume its the dispatches one, but I cant find a link for the poll itself; and its pretty important to distinguish between Muslims who thought the bombers cause was justified (a significant minority) and those who believed the bombing was wholly justified (1% according to an earlier poll).

Guardian report on poll (http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,,2095736,00.html)


An ICM poll last year indicated that a fifth of Muslims had sympathy with the "feelings and motives" of the suicide bombers in the July 7 2005 attack, although 99% thought they were wrong to carry out the attack.

Honggweilo
31st December 2007, 02:03
Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2007 08:17 pm

I dont know alot about her but how is she racist?

She is a black Somalian (Who was muslim but is now atheist :) ) who is a Feminist and a member of a Liberal political party who stands up to the sexist oppression of all women (Especially muslim women who are probably the most oppressed ATM) which is currently almost universally standard for most Muslim countries.


Liberal in the classical European sence..

the VVD is a classical right-winged conservative liberal party, like the torries in the UK :lol: I can recall numerous VVD members saying the "women emancipation has gone too far" <_<

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is also one of the biggest neo-liberal oppertunists i know.

Do some background research spartan

ÑóẊîöʼn
9th January 2008, 18:19
no, those "moderates" (an imperialsit term)

No, it is not an imperialist term, any more than "moderate Christian" or "liberal Jew". Are you seriously suggesting that there is no difference between Sufism and Wahabism?

In any case, there is a common conception in the West of Islam being more "extreme" than other religions. This is mainly due to the terrorist attacks, but also by the amount of airtime given to Bin Laden and other Muslim shit-stirrers. It is difficult to tell whether this represents the true nature of the Muslim community at large not, due to said community's insularity.

Sky
9th January 2008, 21:51
It is often said that Islam has been “hijacked” by a small extremist group of radical fundamentalists. The vast majority of Muslims are said to be moderates. This implication is hard to reconcile for the praise towards so-called "moderates" issued to strongmen such as Mubarak, Musharaff, and the reactionary monarchies in Jordan, Morocco, and others that faithfully act in the interests of the imperialist monopolies. This is inconsistent with the allegation by the bourgeois liberal parties in Pakistan and elsewhere that only 10&#37; of the population favors Islamist groups.


Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a former member of the Dutch Parliament and a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, is the author of “Infidel.”

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a hatemonger, traitor, and an extraordinary liar. The "American Enterprise Institute" is one of the most venomous right-wing think tanks in the United States. Among prominent contributors to the "American Enterprise Institute" include Paul Wolfowitz, John Bolton, Richard Perle, and Newt Gringrich. If Ali and others are outraged when people are punished under Sharia, they should also be concerned when Iraqi women are murdered by American bullets. The fact of the matter is the occupation of Iraq makes far exceeds anything that occurs under the sharia.