What to be done about street gangs

[thescarface1989]

It seems all these gangs do is kill each other because of stupid racist reasons, what are we going to do with them after the revolution?

[Red_Hooligan]

Gang-murders aren't usually racially-motivated, unless you mean white-supremacists. Most "streetgangs" exist to protect and expand petty crime, such as drug-dealing, prostitution, or extortion. Murders happen over money and/or drugs, not race.

Speaking about what "we" are going to do in a classless society is purely speculative, but I'll give my opinion. I think that without a law denying people from using substances, and without poverty, there won't be much of a "reason" for gangs to exist. It's not something you need police to enforce, it'll be something that will naturally fade away, due to economic evolution.

It would be part of the "consumers'" power, too. If you can get 100% untainted, pure and regulated "Chicago Drug Commune-Approved" cocaine,why would you want to have to meet with dangerous drug-dealers, to buy probably impure substances, with no regulation or assurance?

[bootleg42]

Just create conditions where gangs don't need to exist (ex: everyone in good economic conditions, drugs are free to use for everyone and the knowledge of what those drugs do and their effects is known by all, etc).

If after that gangs continue to exist, then the people will just wash them away. Remember, gang bosses and mafia types are lumpenproletariat which are regressive and can easily be counter-recolutionary for THEIR own benefits.

[patient persuasion]

seems a bit utopian to think that gangs will magically drift away after the rapturous revolution.

it's hard for me to imagine a revolutionary process happening without the involvement (on the people's side) of some of the lower stratum of these gangs - mainly comprised of youth of color from the working class.

[Ander]

You should also consider the idea that many youths join gangs in order to feel as if they belong to something. It makes them feel important, cared about, and protected.

Although I am no expert, it can be argued that gangs are often formed and maintained due to economic factors perpetuated by the inequalities of the capitalist system, as others in this thread have touched upon.

It is interesting to debate whether in a more egalitarian society the motives for the existence of gangs would diminish.

[RedStaredRevolution]

I agree with jello. The main reason for the creation of gangs is not to help make petty crimes easier. The first real gangs started back when the Irish immigrants started coming over. These people were almost completely shut out from the mainstream society. So most people think (there are other reasons) that gangs started naturally occuring in areas like this to stimulate a sense of being in a family and having other people who will look out for you. Gangs have changed a lot since then but I think that the reason (isolation) for people joining them is the same.

In a stateless, classless society i think these people would feel more like a part of society and thus being part of it would give them better alternatives to gangs to the point where gangs would eventually die out.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

In addition to what has been said, a lot of petty criminals become full-fledged gang members through the prison system. That needs to be radically changed.

[Labor Shall Rule]

I would also agree with Jello.

The Latin Kings are an extraordinary example of how street gangs can play a revolutionary role. After all, they are composed of working class malcontent youth that need to provide for their family through other means. It is the tasks of worker-communists to gain leadership over peace organizing efforts between feuding parties. I don't think we should demean anyone for trying to make ends meet when they come from such a background; we do not have a criteria for mindlessly judging the decisions of black and latino youth, who honestly have no other choice but running to gangs.

[blackstone]

Originally posted by Labor Shall [email protected] 07, 2007 09:15 am
I would also agree with Jello.

The Latin Kings are an extraordinary example of how street gangs can play a revolutionary role. After all, they are composed of working class malcontent youth that need to provide for their family through other means. It is the tasks of worker-communists to gain leadership over peace organizing efforts between feuding parties. I don't think we should demean anyone for trying to make ends meet when they come from such a background; we do not have a criteria for mindlessly judging the decisions of black and latino youth, who honestly have no other choice but running to gangs.
What do you mean, "honestly have no choice"? My observations suggest that they do have a choice. Maybe out in LA where you are at is different, because the gang culture is different over there than here in the EastCoast.



It is the tasks of worker-communists to gain leadership over peace organizing efforts between feuding parties.

Why do communists have to gain leadership over peace organizing efforts? Most treaties and successful efforts have been done at grass roots level by not communists, but regular citizens taking control over their community.

[Ultra-Violence]

Gang-murders aren't usually racially-motivated, unless you mean white-supremacists

not necessarily gang crime is becoming increasing racialy motivated trust me on his since prison gangs are seperated by race that prison violence is coming out onto the streets that why you see alot of sureno gangs killing black gangs and vice versa and Becuase of that blacks and mestizos are having increasing racial tensions



IMO gangs will be obsorbed into the revolution and so will people in prison since hey will be free and i belive willing to fight for thier freedom. Gangs are valuable because they are armed! 2. they have nothing to lose and with some work on are part fight for the cuase will it hapen? i dont know but id like to work towards that and hope fully making it into a reality.

[dannthraxxx]

gang-violence being related to "racial" problems is purely media based and mostly propaganda. it's used as subversive material to frighten people.


gang violence is normally over drugs/money/territory/etc.


if "money" wasn't such a necessity, obviously drugs would not need to be sold.


in my opinion gangs could easily be used, all we have to do is spread the word/knowledge to them. there are easily more gang members than "authority" figures in this country.

[Tatarin]

in my opinion gangs could easily be used, all we have to do is spread the word/knowledge to them. there are easily more gang members than "authority" figures in this country.

If you mean spreading the knowledge about communism - why would gang leaders want to promote an idea that is against their authority and their profits?

[dannthraxxx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 06:24 am

in my opinion gangs could easily be used, all we have to do is spread the word/knowledge to them. there are easily more gang members than "authority" figures in this country.

If you mean spreading the knowledge about communism - why would gang leaders want to promote an idea that is against their authority and their profits?
because the only reason guys start gangs and do such things is because they're fucking broke and fed up.

[dannthraxxx]

basically, that was a lame reply.


what you're doing is making broad generalizations that gangs are "evil." which they could be. but what the tv doesnt tell you is that most kids join gangs for community and shelter, it's not fucking fun and games, it's a way to survive and it's a struggle.

no, i'm not talking about communism, to be honest, i cant stand communism anymore, fuck marx i'm glad he's dead and his ideas with him. let an 18th century idea die.


it's time for new things. we shouldnt be arguing on the internet trying to figure out how to bring ancient ideas into play.


personally i fucking hate gang members, but i cant hold it against them. i'd personally starve to death before i'd sling drugs to kids. in my opinion all drug lords should be shot in the face and put to death, i'm also a fan of prohibition, but hey you know, that's not very anarchist now is it.


but that doesnt mean that there arent some kids out there who will die for what they believe in, because hey, they're dying every day killing their own brothers for a place to live and food to eat.


i hate how closed minded this community has become, which is why i never post anymore.

[SouthernBelle82]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 01:21 pm
In addition to what has been said, a lot of petty criminals become full-fledged gang members through the prison system. That needs to be radically changed.
Oh definitley. The national geographic channel not too long ago this month had a really good show about that called "Prison Nation" talking about how the prison's are getting very crowded and with that comes prison gangs and whatnot. People stick together to survive for the most part. Definitley something that needs to be addressed but it's hard to because people flock together naturally so I have no idea how to stop that except isolation which isn't very nice.

[Ismail]

We shouldn't view gangs as "evil" or anything like that. "Drug lords" and so on are the real problem. When you hear of a "thugs life" and such in rap songs, those aren't "Hey, look at me, I'm cool!' but rather the reaction against poverty and racism combined (those two usually go hand in hand), albeit one with the wrong aim. Many members of gangs are more class conscious than most people, but it doesn't get much farther than "The rich are exploitive" due to:
A. Spending 96% of life trying not to die from gunshot/knife wound/starvation
B. Taking 4% left focusing on petty crime or self-destructive entertainment activities


no, i'm not talking about communism, to be honest, i cant stand communism anymore, fuck marx i'm glad he's dead and his ideas with him. let an 18th century idea die.I was unaware that Marx wrote, walked, or was even born in the 1700's.

[Tatarin]

because the only reason guys start gangs and do such things is because they're fucking broke and fed up.

Yes, I never disputed that. But gangs have a strong hierarchy alongside what I said before, once they gain profits from the underground market it becomes just like Murdoch's media empire (not the size, but the function).


what you're doing is making broad generalizations that gangs are "evil." which they could be. but what the tv doesnt tell you is that most kids join gangs for community and shelter, it's not fucking fun and games, it's a way to survive and it's a struggle.

I never said they were "evil" or anything like that. What I am pointing out is that gangs functions like any other groups that are dependent on making money.

And kids don't join gangs for fun. Capitalism makes them join by alienation, economic difficulties and so on. In a system where all humans benefit the gang element will soon be eliminated.


...i cant stand communism anymore, fuck marx i'm glad he's dead and his ideas with him. let an 18th century idea die.

His ideas aren't dead and probably never will. This forum is an excellent example of that. Venezuela may just be another.

[spartan]

His ideas aren't dead and probably never will. This forum is an excellent example of that. Venezuela may just be another.
I personally thought that Venezuela was more of an example of Democratic Socialism rather than Marxism?

EDIT: Oh yeah i just noticed the "may just be" part :D

[Dros]

I think gangs will lose membership rapidly under socialism as people won't need to resort to crime to live.

But I think this opens a more interesting question: What should be our approach to gangs before the revolution?

These are just some thoughts I had. It seems to me that the vanguard could act as an alternative to gangs. If the Vanguard had a street presence in the inner city, we could gain recruits from the population that would become gangs. I think that would be an incredibly powerful way to strenghten our movement.

[bezdomni]

let an 18th century idea die.


lol

what did marx publish in the 18th century?

[Red Heretic]

This is sort of old, but a worthwhile read.

How Maoist Revolution Wiped Out Drug Addiction in China
by C. Clark Kissinger

In the United States today, ending drug addiction seems impossible. The system claims to be ``fighting drugs'' -- with cops, new medications, religion, new therapies, and ``just say no'' campaigns. But despite all of this the drug problem won't go away -- while armed police enforcers harass and brutalize the people.

Why? Because this dog-eat-dog system causes drug use, and because powerful forces within the system profit off of drug sales. The production, transportation and sale of drugs is a multi-billion-dollar business. It is run by big-time capitalists who have ties throughout the U.S. government, the CIA and the police. Meanwhile, the top rulers of this system blame the people for the ``drug problem'' -- especially poor ghetto youth.

MAOISTS SAY: ALL OPPRESSION, INCLUDING DRUG ADDICTION, CAN BE OVERTHROWN!

How do we know? Because after Maoist revolution won in China, in 1949, the people themselves led by the Communist Party of China used Maoist methods to wipe out drug addiction. This experience and these methods are very relevant to the world today!

Revolutionaries all over the planet are studying the contributions of Mao Tsetung, the greatest revolutionary of our time. And they are teaching the people how Mao's theory and practice can show people today how to liberate themselves. On Mao's 100th birthday, December 26, 1993, celebrations of the Mao Centenary went into high gear.

This story of how Maoist Revolution ended drug addiction shows that ``WHEN REVOLUTION HAS ITS DAY, PEOPLE SEE THINGS A DIFFERENT WAY.''

Old China Had the World's Biggest Drug Problem

Before Mao's revolution won, in 1949, the people of China were miserably poor, ruled by a handful of rich landowners, warlords and foreign capitalists.

Under that old society, many people were strung out on the pipe. There were 70 million junkies in China -- addicted to opium, morphine and heroin. Half-starving laborers used the sweet opium dreams to cover the pain of hunger and hopelessness. And the lazy rich used drugs to fill up their empty hours. In some areas everyone even children, smoked opium. In the cities, tiny bottles of drugs were sold on the streetcorners like ice cream. People got high on the job.

The people of old China suffered terribly from this drug addiction. Many poor people used their pennies on the pipe instead of food. Addicts often abandoned their children or even SOLD their children to buy more drugs. Addicted women were often forced to become prostitutes and many died of diseases.

How the System Started this Drug Addiction

Drugs were forced on China by the rich colonialists of Europe and America. The British government even waged the famous Opium War in 1839 to force China to accept opium brought on English ships. Malcolm X wrote: ``Imagine! Declare war upon someone who objects to being narcotized!''

This drug trade started because big capitalists could make fortunes selling addictive drugs, and because colonialist governments needed that trade to finance their takeover of China itself. Corrupt Chinese officials profited too, by helping the foreign capitalists enslave the people. This is similar to the way the U.S. ruling class helped create today's worldwide plague of drug addiction. The U.S. ruling class is tied into the drug traffic at all levels -- they often organize it, finance it and defend it. In the 1960s, the CIA flooded heroin into oppressed communities to pay for their secret war in Laos. Then, in Reagan's 1980s, the CIA expanded cocaine traffic to finance their secret war against Nicaragua. U.S. drug companies make profit off speed and downers which are sold in both legal and ``illegal'' ways. The official connection goes down to the street level -- where cops demand their ``cut'' of drug profits.

The experience of both China and the U.S. shows why this system can never solve drug addiction. The system causes the suffering and isolation that makes many people escape into drugs. The system uses drug addiction to weaken the people and enslave them. And all kinds of capitalists and officials then make big money from drugs. In short, this system CAUSES drug addiction and profits from it.

In China, the Maoist revolution ended drug addiction QUICKLY. Mao's revolutionary armies defeated the oppressors' armies in 1949. THREE YEARS LATER, in 1952, there were no more addicts, no more pushers, no more opium poppies grown, and no more drugs smuggled in. In only three short years China went from 70 million drug addicts to none.

How Did the Maoist Revolution End Drug Addiction?

In China, the revolution created a People's Liberation Army and then a new People's Government. This government and the revolutionary masses were led by the Maoist vanguard party, the Communist Party of China. When the revolution won in 1949, the power in society SERVED THE PEOPLE for the first time, not the oppressors. There were big problems of all kinds, left over from the old society. But now it was possible for the people to be organized in their own interests to solve those problems.

From the first months of the NEW POWER, the revolution used the Maoist method of MASS LINE to take on drug addiction. This campaign did not rely on social workers talking down to the people or on punishments. The revolutionary communists relied on THE MASSES OF PEOPLE -- throughout cities and countryside -- to organize themselves to end drug manufacturing, sale and use.

The Maoist revolutionaries called on the addicts themselves to step forward, kick their habit and join the struggle for a new society. The Maoist revolutionaries organized the people in the communities to struggle with their addicted brothers and sisters: to persuade them and educate them. Ex-addicts and their families joined big marches and rallies. Drugs were burned at neighborhood celebrations. Kids were organized in their schools. The NEW POWER meant that the newspapers and radio were mobilized to support the revolutionary campaign.

It was hard to kick the habit, and many addicts resisted at first. But the masses knew if an addict was still copping drugs. Children argued with parents. Wives argued with husbands. Everyone asked the addicts to get with the new society.

At the same time, the revolutionaries organized the people to bust up the business networks that sold drug poison to the people. This meant that supplies were disappearing -- it was getting harder and harder for addicts to stay high.

In short, the struggle against drug addiction became a large-scale mass movement -- the kind of mass movement only a true revolutionary government of the people can create.

Ending Drug Addiction Is Part of the CLASS Struggle

Mao Tsetung said "UNITE ALL WHO CAN BE UNITED AGAINST THE REAL ENEMY." In China, the vanguard taught people that ending drug addiction was part of the CLASS STRUGGLE against the old society -- and people were urged to make clear distinctions between the people and the enemy.

The Maoists said that the system and its big-time supporters should be considered enemies, and that the addicts should be considered part of the people and should be treated as victims of the system. This is the opposite approach from the pig-cops and most religious preachers who act like ``the system is OK'' and who treat addicts like human trash and criminals.

Because of these class distinctions, addicts were not arrested when they ``went public.'' Instead, the people praised the addicts for doing the RIGHT AND REVOLUTIONARY thing. Because the people were in power, the addicts eventually lost their fear of seeking help. Deadlines were set: addicts got several months to get clean. During this period, they could keep a little opium and they were given injections to ease the muscle cramps of withdrawal.

Mao's revolutionary government also said small-time drug dealers would not be treated as Enemies of the People -- IF these small-time operators helped end the drug trade. The revolutionary government offered small-time dealers a one-time-only deal: Mao's government bought out all ``the product'' that small dealers and growers had. In exchange, these small-time operators had to get out of the drug business for good. Some small-time drug dealers resisted this deal -- they were called out by the people and arrested. Some were put under constant neighborhood surveillance, others went to prison to be re-educated.

This revolutionary policy treated all poor people as brothers and sisters. Poor addicts and dealers got ``A WAY OUT'' of the drug trade. They were given jobs and were encouraged to join the struggle for a new society.

A different approach was taken toward the big-time drug traffickers who got rich off the suffering of the people. They were classified "Enemies of the People." These big-time criminals were put on trial in front of thousands of people. People whose lives were ruined by drugs testified against them. These big-time oppressors got COLD HARD JUSTICE: life in prison or public execution. There weren't many such executions -- only five or ten in the largest cities.

Mao's Anti-Addiction Campaign was a Great Success

By the end of 1951 the New China News Agency announced that the drug problem had been ``fundamentally wiped out'' in northern China (which had been liberated first). Southern China, which included many opium-growing areas, took another year or so.

The fact that there was a new revolutionary STATE POWER made all this possible: There was new money issued and revolutionary control of banking that stopped money laundering. The discipline and consciousness of the revolutionary movement meant that drug dealers couldn't buy off people in the new government. And the development of a new SOCIALIST economy meant that it was possible to provide jobs and eliminate the poverty that forced people into the drug trade.

China had almost no drug addiction for over twenty years. Then it came back, after 1976. This is because the Maoist revolution was overthrown. As soon as old-style capitalism came back, drug addiction started to reappear. In a bitter way, this capitalist restoration also shows how YOU CAN'T FREE THE PEOPLE WITHOUT MAKING REVOLUTION AND THEN STAYING ON THE REVOLUTIONARY ROAD.

Maoist revolution rejected the whole BOURGEOIS approach to drugs: Maoism is not about a few reforms, ``some money for drug rehabilitation.'' It's not about individual ``solutions'' through one-on-one therapy. It's not about filling prisons with addicts while allowing big capitalists to get rich on drug trade. It is not about the hypocrisy and useless moralism of the preachers. Any talk about getting rid of drugs without proletarian revolution is just a pipe dream.

Mao's revolution was about real solutions -- it was about stopping the terrible slavery to drugs, and stopping the capitalist drug trade that profited off people's suffering. And lots of other oppression was being wiped out too. Using Maoist methods, the revolutionary masses got rid of prostitution, sale of children, brutal poverty, illiteracy, unemployment, wife beating, crime, police brutality, and so on. The revolution completely changed the lives and thinking of millions and millions of people. It led the people to do things that were unthinkable only a couple years before.

MAOIST REVOLUTION WORKS because it gets to the root of the problems: Maoist revolution overthrows the oppressors and their old system, and then relies on the masses to continue the revolution and build a whole new society.

That's what it's gonna take here too: a revolution. Real change is way past due.

[Comrade Rage]

No offense to all, but do any of you guys believe that gangsters will fade away because of a change of conditions alone? If so, after the end of prohibition they would've.

They didn't.

They just did what they always do. Find a new racket. After the revolution the current operation of gangs will probably be government corruption, but on a higher degree.

Gangs are reactionary force today! Selling destructive substances to the working class, hurting people and violating women.

I also think that they will play a somewhat reactionary role during the revolution as well.

My solution? It's quite simple: Point and shoot. Repeat as necessary.

[Labor Shall Rule]

You obviously haven't been to African-American or Hispanic communities. The income elastisticity of most colored households has showed that they stayed in the lowest quintile of the income spectrum, and moreover, that undernourishment is rampant, which directly effects brain development. It is, moreover, a social disease that has to be cured, rather than a germ that must be wiped out.

They have to 'gain leadership' because if we, as socialists, we able to bring our class analysis to the table, the working class youth could relate with what we are saying, and see the true, objective root of the problem, rather than running to gangs to solve their real or perceived obstacles.

[Ultra-Violence]

My solution? It's quite simple: Point and shoot. Repeat as necessary.

WTF? no fuck that and let you kill my freinds? No they HAVE NO HOPE AND ARE DESPERATE now i know the gang leadership probably needs to get fucking balsted but not the kids I can tell you storeis upon stories about the shit these kids go through as some have posted before its just struggling to survive AND ALSO womyn are joining gangs in increasing numbers and are more Violent their blasting people too. We don't need to kill em just show em *this is why your life is fucked up and this is how were goana change it lets work together etc...

[Dros]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 11, 2007 12:55 am
No offense to all, but do any of you guys believe that gangsters will fade away because of a change of conditions alone? If so, after the end of prohibition they would've.

They didn't.

They just did what they always do. Find a new racket. After the revolution the current operation of gangs will probably be government corruption, but on a higher degree.

Gangs are reactionary force today! Selling destructive substances to the working class, hurting people and violating women.

I also think that they will play a somewhat reactionary role during the revolution as well.

My solution? It's quite simple: Point and shoot. Repeat as necessary.
Please. I wouldn't say crime is going to end after the revolution. But large scale criminal societies will probably die out to a certain extent. This is due to the fact that these people were driven to this course of life. Now that doesn't justify their actions but it does explain it. When people become reenfranchised and there is societal orginization to meet the needs of society, these societies won't be necessary and will simply lose recruiting grounds.