Progress of human society?

[La Comédie Noire]

For all you cappies who don't believe in a revolution or a progression to Socialism what do you think the future holds for man kind?

Are we witnessing the end of history right now?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_Hi...nd_the_Last_Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_History_and_the_Last_Man)

Or do you believe that the world will end in destruction?

Or do you believe in another form of society?

I'd like to know.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 06, 2007 03:22 am
For all you cappies who don't believe in a revolution or a progression to Socialism what do you think the future holds for man kind?

Are we witnessing the end of history right now?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_Hi...nd_the_Last_Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_History_and_the_Last_Man)

Or do you believe that the world will end in destruction?

Or do you believe in another form of society?

I'd like to know.
The whole "End of History" thing is a load of total bullshit, and this is from someone who could give a shit about Marxism.

Eventually the world will end when the sun envelopes us.

[Lynx]

Triumphalism is not my cup of tea.
How can history end when you still got politics?

[JazzRemington]

There is no "end" to history. Period. This is metaphysical nonsense claiming that there is some point that all of history is somehow striving for, which is bunk. If anything, this book is supportive of Marx's theories because according to most Marxists the world will probably be mostly capitalist, in some form or another, in the future before anything happens. If anything, more and more countries being capitalist is a good thing.

Saying that the present system is the highest development of mankind is painfully familiar. Probably be most other societies might have thought the same thing. The Romans sure as hell did.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 03:56 am
There is no "end" to history. Period. This is metaphysical nonsense claiming that there is some point that all of history is somehow striving for, which is bunk. If anything, this book is supportive of Marx's theories because according to most Marxists the world will probably be mostly capitalist, in some form or another, in the future before anything happens. If anything, more and more countries being capitalist is a good thing.

Saying that the present system is the highest development of mankind is painfully familiar. Probably be most other societies might have thought the same thing. The Romans sure as hell did.
Isn't Marxism a "End of History" philosophy as well?

[JazzRemington]

Marxism, yes.

[RGacky3]

Capitalists talk about the progress Capitalism has made, but if you look at this socalled progress, what have we accomplished, ruined the earth, made massiave weapons that kill and maim thousands, made a ton of pretty technology that alienates people, and is pretty much wasted, we've put a man on the moon but still millions starve to death. So "progress" under Capitalism does'nt account to much.

[KC]

Isn't Marxism a "End of History" philosophy as well?
Marxism, yes.

No it isn't.

[blackstone]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 01:01 pm
Capitalists talk about the progress Capitalism has made, but if you look at this socalled progress, what have we accomplished, ruined the earth, made massiave weapons that kill and maim thousands, made a ton of pretty technology that alienates people, and is pretty much wasted, we've put a man on the moon but still millions starve to death. So "progress" under Capitalism does'nt account to much.
Whitey on the Moon - Gil-Scott Heron (1972)


A rat done bit my sister Nell with Whitey on the moon.

Her face and arms began to swell and Whitey's on the moon.

I can't pay no doctor bills but Whitey's on the moon.

Ten years from now I'll be payin' still while Whitey's on the moon.

The man just upped my rent last night cuz Whitey's on the moon.

No hot water, no toilets, no lights but Whitey's on the moon.

I wonder why he's uppin me. Cuz Whitey's on the moon?

I was already givin' him fifty a week but now Whitey's on the moon.

Taxes takin' my whole damn check,

The junkies makin' me a nervous wreck,

The price of food is goin' up,

And as if all that shit wasn't enough:

A rat done bit my sister Nell with Whitey on the moon.

Her face and arms began to swell but Whitey's on the moon.

Was all that money I made last year for Whitey on the moon?

How come there ain't no money here? Hmm! Whitey's on the moon.

Ya know, I just about had my fill of Whitey on the moon.

I think I'll send these doctor bills

airmail special....

to Whitey on the moon.

http://power-2-people.blogspot.com/2007/10...ey-on-moon.html (http://power-2-people.blogspot.com/2007/10/whitey-on-moon.html)

[Kwisatz Haderach]

In my experience, capitalists either believe that capitalism will last forever or that human civilization will collapse.

[pusher robot]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 06:01 pm
Capitalists talk about the progress Capitalism has made, but if you look at this socalled progress, what have we accomplished, ruined the earth, made massiave weapons that kill and maim thousands, made a ton of pretty technology that alienates people, and is pretty much wasted, we've put a man on the moon but still millions starve to death. So "progress" under Capitalism does'nt account to much.

ruined the earth

No...



made massiave weapons that kill and maim thousands

Yes...



made a ton of pretty technology that alienates people

Dig a hole and crawl into it. You are a luddite.

Human life has improved in almost every conceivable way in the past couple of centuries. Would you reject all this because it comes with a few new problems?

[RGacky3]

No...


Ask a scientist.


Human life has improved in almost every conceivable way in the past couple of centuries. Would you reject all this because it comes with a few new problems?

Has health improved for the Average person? Has Social life improved as general? Are people smarter? happier? more free? better off? Some of it has improved life, but Capitalist progress is like carpet bombing a mouse, sure you might a couple mice, but a lot of it is wasted and it causes a lot of problems.

I'm not rejecting techonolgy, I"m rejecting the idea that Capitalisms wrongs are Oked because now we have cell phones that play videos (If you can afford it). None the less progress won't stop under Socialism.

[pusher robot]

No...


Ask a scientist.


I just did. She said that while there are problems to be solved, it's ridiculous to say that the Earth is "ruined," as there are more people able to live on it than ever before.

So, where's your evidence?


Has health improved for the Average person?Vastly.
Has Social life improved as general?Almost certainly.
Are people smarter?They know more, if that's what you mean.
happier?In aggregate, yes.
more free?Absolutely.
better off?Yes, according to all evidence.
None the less progress won't stop under Socialism.And neither will new problems stop arising. Technology increases the power of humanity, both to do good and evil. Ah, but I forget - you materialists reject morality.

[JazzRemington]

Originally posted by Zampanò@December 06, 2007 01:06 pm


Isn't Marxism a "End of History" philosophy as well?
Marxism, yes.

No it isn't.
From what I understand of it, Marxists seem to think that at communism there would be no significant development.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

History will only end when the human race is extinct. Since developing civilisation (and thus starting history) the human race has contantly been on the move. Even the longest lasting empires were mere moments in the millennial span of human
history.


Whitey on the Moon - Gil-Scott Heron (1972)

Why does the astronaut's race matter at all? Exploiting others and being priveleged is not unique to white people.


Originally posted by RGacky3
Has health improved for the Average person?

Yes. Sanitation and medicine means that those who have access to it no longer die early of diseases like cholera, tuberculosis and the plague. You remember the Black Death right? The disease that to all intents and purposes depopulated Europe?


Has Social life improved as general?

Yes. Cultures are generally more intermixed and less isolationist. Communications technology is helping in breaking down barriers between humans. This is to the good.


Are people smarter?

People have access to education and knowledge undreamed of in earlier times. We are probing the very workings of the universe.


happier?

People actually live to see their great-grandchildren, so I would guess so.


more free?

Slavery was once common and accepted the world over. Now it is reviled and rejected by civilised people across the globe.


better off?

Furniture was once only had by the nobility. Electrical and other manufactured goods are common in people's homes. People used to carry what little wealth they had around with them - now they have so much it's impractical and even risky for most people to do so.


Some of it has improved life, but Capitalist progress is like carpet bombing a mouse, sure you might a couple mice, but a lot of it is wasted and it causes a lot of problems.

No, the problem is that while a lot of people have benefitted, not everyone has. Things have gotten better, but not good enough.

[blackstone]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 03:05 pm


Whitey on the Moon - Gil-Scott Heron (1972)

Why does the astronaut's race matter at all? Exploiting others and being priveleged is not unique to white people.


I guess that whole poem went over your head.

[KC]

From what I understand of it, Marxists seem to think that at communism there would be no significant development.

Marxists recognize that communism is the end of the history of class society but not humanity in general. There could certainly be plenty of significant historical developments after class society is done away with, the most obvious example probably being that of technology.

[jasmine]

History will only end when the human race is extinct. Since developing civilisation (and thus starting history) the human race has contantly been on the move. Even the longest lasting empires were mere moments in the millennial span of human history.

The history of the human race will end with its extinction. But history will not end here. The planet will continue to revolve around the sun. The universe will continue indifferent to the fate of humans.

[RebelDog]

I would say that Marxism and dialectical materialism support the view that its 'history forever' obviously for as long as humans can survive. Once the social dialectic is over (class society) the remaining dialectic is humans and nature and the syntheses being the destruction of both if the universe is to end or the victory of one over the other.

The whole 'end of history' thing is an exaggerated phrase to describe the fall of the USSR and the supposed victory of capitalism.

[RebelDog]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 08:57 pm

History will only end when the human race is extinct. Since developing civilisation (and thus starting history) the human race has contantly been on the move. Even the longest lasting empires were mere moments in the millennial span of human history.

The history of the human race will end with its extinction. But history will not end here. The planet will continue to revolve around the sun. The universe will continue indifferent to the fate of humans.
There are many quantum physicists who would be inclined to disagree with that.

[pusher robot]

Originally posted by The Dissenter+December 06, 2007 09:09 pm--> (The Dissenter @ December 06, 2007 09:09 pm)
[email protected] 06, 2007 08:57 pm

History will only end when the human race is extinct. Since developing civilisation (and thus starting history) the human race has contantly been on the move. Even the longest lasting empires were mere moments in the millennial span of human history.

The history of the human race will end with its extinction. But history will not end here. The planet will continue to revolve around the sun. The universe will continue indifferent to the fate of humans.
There are many quantum physicists who would be inclined to disagree with that. [/b]
Really? Why?

[RebelDog]

Originally posted by pusher robot+December 06, 2007 09:13 pm--> (pusher robot @ December 06, 2007 09:13 pm)
Originally posted by The [email protected] 06, 2007 09:09 pm

[email protected] 06, 2007 08:57 pm

History will only end when the human race is extinct. Since developing civilisation (and thus starting history) the human race has contantly been on the move. Even the longest lasting empires were mere moments in the millennial span of human history.

The history of the human race will end with its extinction. But history will not end here. The planet will continue to revolve around the sun. The universe will continue indifferent to the fate of humans.
There are many quantum physicists who would be inclined to disagree with that.
Really? Why? [/b]
Because it is a fact that quantum entities (particles) change their behavior or state under human observation. If this fact is true for the whole universe then its clear that a universe cannot continue to exist in the same fashion. The statement "The universe will continue indifferent to the fate of humans." would therefore be untrue.

If you wish to probe further this may be of help:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_interpretation

[Dean]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 03:26 am
The whole "End of History" thing is a load of total bullshit, and this is from someone who could give a shit about Marxism.

Eventually the world will end when the sun envelopes us.
One day the sun will grow
and swallow up our homes
destroying all we own
with pleasure I will groan

[Dean]

Originally posted by blackstone+December 06, 2007 06:08 pm--> (blackstone @ December 06, 2007 06:08 pm)
[email protected] 06, 2007 01:01 pm
Capitalists talk about the progress Capitalism has made, but if you look at this socalled progress, what have we accomplished, ruined the earth, made massiave weapons that kill and maim thousands, made a ton of pretty technology that alienates people, and is pretty much wasted, we've put a man on the moon but still millions starve to death. So "progress" under Capitalism does'nt account to much.
Whitey on the Moon - Gil-Scott Heron (1972)


A rat done bit my sister Nell with Whitey on the moon. [/b]
Mary Alice quit askin' why I do the things I do
I ain't sayin' that she likes it, but what else I'm gonna do?
If I could solve the world's problems I'd probably start with hers and mine
But they can put a man on the moon
And I'm stuck in Muscle Shoals just barely scraping by
Putting People On The Moon by Drive By Truckers

[ComradeRed]

Originally posted by The [email protected] 06, 2007 01:27 pm
Because it is a fact that quantum entities (particles) change their behavior or state under human observation. If this fact is true for the whole universe then its clear that a universe cannot continue to exist in the same fashion. The statement "The universe will continue indifferent to the fate of humans." would therefore be untrue.
NO NO NO!!!

This is a vulgar misinterpretation of the Copenhagen paradigm!

It's not just "human" observers, but any observing system.

This is generalized in Everett's only paper on a relative state formulation of quantum mechanics. This was picked up by Rovelli lately (i.e. within the past 10 years) and made significant progress as relational quantum mechanics (or "evolving constants of nature").

It's not just humans that change crap, but observers in general! Human or non-human, conscious or unconscious, any observer that makes an observation changes the state!

Hell, even the wikipedia article you linked made special note (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_interpretation#Alternatives) that:

"Consciousness causes collapse is often confused with the Copenhagen interpretation."

Understandably it is a complex subject, but please do not confuse these two schools for each other!

[TheDifferenceEngine]

The End of History will be when/if we reach technological singularity.

Or if we are all dead.

I prefer the first one.

[pusher robot]

Originally posted by The [email protected] 06, 2007 09:27 pm
Because it is a fact that quantum entities (particles) change their behavior or state under human observation. If this fact is true for the whole universe then its clear that a universe cannot continue to exist in the same fashion. The statement "The universe will continue indifferent to the fate of humans." would therefore be untrue.
[img]http://www.papadeltabravo.com/pics/mc_psp_morbo.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' class='attach' />
QUANTUM MECHANICS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY! GOOD NIGHT!

[RebelDog]

Given that humans are the ones that build non-conscious tools to observe the quantum world and deep in to space, and other life cannot see so small and far how am I incorrect?

[RebelDog]

Originally posted by pusher robot+December 07, 2007 03:12 pm--> (pusher robot @ December 07, 2007 03:12 pm)
The [email protected] 06, 2007 09:27 pm
Because it is a fact that quantum entities (particles) change their behavior or state under human observation. If this fact is true for the whole universe then its clear that a universe cannot continue to exist in the same fashion. The statement "The universe will continue indifferent to the fate of humans." would therefore be untrue.
[img]http://www.papadeltabravo.com/pics/mc_psp_morbo.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' class='attach' />
QUANTUM MECHANICS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY! GOOD NIGHT! [/b]
Patrons are reminded not to post pictures of themselves.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by blackstone+December 06, 2007 08:42 pm--> (blackstone @ December 06, 2007 08:42 pm)
Originally posted by NoXion+December 06, 2007 03:05 pm--> (NoXion @ December 06, 2007 03:05 pm)

Whitey on the Moon - Gil-Scott Heron (1972)

Why does the astronaut's race matter at all? Exploiting others and being priveleged is not unique to white people.

[/b]
I guess that whole poem went over your head.[/b]
No, I've heard all the arguments before about "Spending money solving problems on Earth before going elsewhere" and it's bullshit. It's based on a simplistic worldview.

And you didn't answer my question. Why the fuck does the astronauts' skin colour matter, you racist piece of shit? :angry: And don't give that bullshit about ragging on white people not being racism. It is racism, it's just a whole lot more accepted among the left because colonialism and imperialism are wrongly percieved as being A) unique to white people and B) the only source of oppression.


The [email protected]
Because it is a fact that quantum entities (particles) change their behavior or state under human observation.

Bzzzzt! Wrong! States and behaviours are changed when any observation is made, and it does not matter what is making that observation - it could be a human or it could be an automated instrument.

And in the first place, that is only one interpretation of quantum theory, and not necessarily the most correct one.


The DifferenceEngine
The End of History will be when/if we reach technological singularity.

Nobody knows what will happen when/if we reach the technological singularity, so I think it a little premature to start predicting the end of history already.

[RebelDog]

Bzzzzt! Wrong! States and behaviours are changed when any observation is made, and it does not matter what is making that observation - it could be a human or it could be an automated instrument.

The context under which this was being discussed was in a post-human universe, that is why I referred to human observation, or their instruments if you like.


And in the first place, that is only one interpretation of quantum theory, and not necessarily the most correct one.

Well that depends on what "most correct" means. I don't necessarily subscribe to the Copenhagen Interpretation. What I am saying is that it is reasonable to say, in fact its correct to say from what we can garner from quantum mechanics at this time, that a universe without human observation (using instruments or not) will not behave in the same way as a universe with humans.

[Red Puppy]

As a high school student struggling to actually get an education, an education that the school system no way comes close to, I have trouble understanding quantum mechanics and theory. However, as I see it, quantum theory is just that--theory, am I right? It is possible according to evidence given, but in all, it still is theory and there's no solid proof.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

As far as the topic goes, one thing that scares me is the Large Hadron Collider beneath Switzerland, maybe not the end of history, but if we're unlucky, it could be the end of civilization or humanity...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider <-- Related

[Lynx]

In science, a theory is an explanation for observable facts. Facts are derived from repeated measurements of the phenomena.

If something does go wrong with one of them mini black holes, hopefully the consequences will be quick and painless.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

oops

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 08:57 pm
The history of the human race will end with its extinction. But history will not end here. The planet will continue to revolve around the sun. The universe will continue indifferent to the fate of humans.
History is just human records. That&#39;s why we call periods that existed before our records, prehistoric, after we&#39;re gone history will have no definition.

[hajduk]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 06, 2007 03:22 am
For all you cappies who don&#39;t believe in a revolution or a progression to Socialism what do you think the future holds for man kind?

Are we witnessing the end of history right now?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_Hi...nd_the_Last_Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_History_and_the_Last_Man)

Or do you believe that the world will end in destruction?

Or do you believe in another form of society?

I&#39;d like to know.
it will be what it happened to be