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marxist_god
5th December 2007, 18:13
Hello all: Venezuela is not the only place threatened by fascism in this world. US blacks and other minorities are in trouble, we must as revolutionaries deffend all blacks in this country who are harassed and terrorized by white nationalist fascism !!


Kluckers Threaten Jena March

Opposing White Supremacy...and Getting To a Far Better World
A white supremacist group recently announced plans to march and rally in Jena, Louisiana on Martin Luther King Jr. Day, January 21, 2008. These white racists, who call themselves the “Nationalist Movement,” are billing the event as “Jena Justice Day—No to Jena 6, No to King.” And they are very clear about what this means. In what was basically a free advertisement disguised as an article in the Jena Times, these cavemen kluckers were quoted encouraging people to bring homemade signs calling for jailing the Jena 6, opposing the Martin Luther King holiday, and “down with communism.” They suggested that people come in U.S. military or Confederate Civil War uniforms, and they even encouraged people to DISPLAY NOOSES!!

As for these racists and their march, we have one thing to say: THE DAY IS LONG SINCE PAST WHEN VIGILANTE RACISTS RUNNING AMOK AND TERRORIZING BLACK PEOPLE IS TOLERABLE. Go crawl back under your miserable rocks, and get out of the way.

But for those who argue that the Jena 6 case is about six Black youth who need to be punished for beating up a white student...and NOT about nooses being hung on a “whites-only” tree...this alone should make it very clear that this case is truly all about the fact that the nooses hung at Jena High School stood for a whole history and present-day reality of racism, oppression and discrimination…AND the fact that Black students resisted this.

The system came down HARD on six Black youth to make the point—that they will not allow defiant rebellion against the status quo of racist unequal justice, segregation and KKK terror. From the very beginning, high school administrators, city officials, the DA and judges AND officials from the U.S. Justice Department worked together to push forward the outrageous prosecution of the Jena 6. But as word spread throughout the country a real grassroots movement grew. On September 20, tens of thousands of Black people from all over the country demonstrated in Jena, and many more protested in other cities and towns.

But KKK-types then jumped out in a reactionary counter-attack. Families of the Jena 6 got death threats and a white supremacist website encouraged vigilante action against them by posting their names and addresses. As a result of the struggle of the people, the courts were forced to release one of the Jena 6, Mychal Bell, who had been unjustly imprisoned for 10 months. But no sooner was he out than they threw him right back in, supposedly for probation violation from “previous offenses.” Then the DA, the Jena Times newspaper, and the mayor went on a mission in the media to strike back, saying the real “victim” in all this is the white student, Justin Barker, who the Jena 6 are accused of beating up. And the media has also been a launching pad for vilifying the Jena 6 as gangsters and thugs. But support for the Jena 6 has continued to grow, especially among students, and in November thousands of people marched in DC against racist hate crimes, demanding that the Jena 6 be free.

But the DA is going forward with the prosecution of the Jena 6 (see “Update: The Battle to Free the Jena 6,” online at revcom.us). And now white supremacists are saying they will march with their nooses in Jena.

There is a real battle, a profound political struggle, going on that must take off to higher levels, with two sides fighting over a question that, right now, concentrates the oppression of Black people: WHAT WILL BE THE OUTCOME OF THE JENA 6 CASE?

And What Is Your “Southern Way of Life”?

The case of the Jena 6 shines a spotlight on the unequal oppressive social relations and institutions that exist today and are brutally enforced. This is why this case has struck such a nerve among so many Black people.

AND it is also why it has struck such a nerve among the most despicable and hateful proponents of white supremacy. And it is also why these white supremacists have come out swinging in defense of what they call their way of life.

But let’s look at Jena as an example of that “way of life.” Jena is segregated—where people live, where people hang out. The Black neighborhoods are mostly poor and neglected. You walk down the streets of the small downtown—you don’t see a lot of Black people, especially none working in any of the offices or stores. People in some Black neighborhoods will tell you the city doesn’t even come in to pick up the garbage, that they have to go dump their own garbage somewhere.

Caseptla Bailey, the mother of Robert Bailey (one of the Jena 6), is 56 years old and a former Air Force officer. She has a degree in business management, but says she cannot get a job as a bank teller. She lives in an area in Jena called Ward 10 where the majority of Black people live in trailers or wooden shacks. She says whites don’t live here at all. She says, “We want to live better, we want better housing.”

Talk to other Black people who live in Jena. They’ll tell you about how a Black man was stomped to death by a gang of white guys because he bumped into a white woman. You’ll hear other accounts of Black people being attacked, beaten up, killed. Maybe it was a Black man who dated a white woman. Maybe it was a Black youth with an attitude a white cop didn’t like. Or maybe it was someone attacked just for being Black.

It’s not that surprising there was a “whites-only” tree at Jena High School.

On the road leading right out of Jena, you pass a big mansion on a hill, standing all by itself. There’s a big iron fence around it, with a huge gate blocking the driveway. The whole thing is adorned with American AND Confederate flags. Stop at a gas station on the way to Jena and go into the gift shop and see trinkets for sale—ceramic figures of degrading caricatures of Black people. You see t-shirts for sale with Confederate flags and slogans openly promoting white supremacy.

In a place like Jena, you feel the echoes of slavery. You can’t help but be reminded that on this very ground, in these very places, kidnapped Africans were bought and sold, shackled and worked to death. Children ripped from their parents’ hands at the auction block. Plantations where Black people created tremendous wealth for their owners. And white slave-catchers hunted down runaway slaves. THIS economic system of slavery is at the very foundation of the whole way the capitalist system developed and grew in this country.

It took nothing less than the Civil War to end slavery in this country. But even this did not end the systemic oppression and super-exploitation of Black people. Instead, capitalism “re-integrated” millions of Black people in the South into new forms of oppression. Now they were to be exploited as sharecroppers, sometimes working on the same plantation land they, or their parents and grandparents, had worked on as slaves. And coming out of this and in turn propping up all this was the persistent “Southern culture” of KKK cross burnings, lynchings, and Jim Crow laws that required “white only” and “Black only” public schools, drinking fountains, trains, buses and all kinds of other public places.

And this continues right down to today. White racists—admitted and otherwise—will argue that they are just upholding “proud traditions,” “Southern culture,” and “the way of life our parents and grandparents have all enjoyed.” And down in Jena some who loudly say that they are not racist will, in the same conversation, tell you that Black people are dangerous, lazy, criminals with a lower innate intelligence than white people. This is the kind of culture and thinking that in turn bolsters and justifies all the ways that capitalism profits off of the exploitation and oppression of the masses of Black people—subjecting them to the lowest-paid jobs, the worst working conditions, the worst neighborhoods with little or no social services, and the highest unemployment rates.

These unequal and oppressive relations have been and continue to be brutally enforced. And while Black people no longer mainly face widespread lynching and cross-burnings—though the KKK would like to bring them back and there was a cross-burning just recently “up south” in Peekskill, New York—they do face the widespread terror of police brutality and murder.

Now these KKKers have come way out there, and no doubt some of the “good whites” will distance themselves. But these kluckers have been produced by a very specific society, with very specific economic relations and a specific history. In this country the exploitation and oppression of Black people have been built into the whole process of the accumulation of wealth by the capitalist class, from its very beginnings, and first the slaveholders and now these capitalists have built up a whole superstructure of ideas to justify it. At first, it was the Bible; now they still use the Bible, but add onto it pseudo-scientific bullshit about “inherited IQs” and vicious non-stop television shows like Cops, etc.

The division in this country between white people and Black people—and expressions this takes in lynchings and police murder, in “everyday” discrimination and the pervasive racist ideas and attitudes—is deeply rooted in this economic structure and the social relations that go along with this, and it is pushed forward and supported by conscious policies of the big capitalist-imperialists who run this society. Here’s what Bob Avakian, the leader of the RCP, said about this in an article reprinted in Revolution earlier this year:

“Within the U.S. itself, one of the main and most ugly features of the capitalist-imperialist system is the great division between people of the European-American nation (white people) and peoples of color. This great division is not just a matter of racist ideas and attitudes, among white people in particular—although that is one expression of it. This division is deeply rooted in the historical development and the present-day economic and social structure of U.S. society. In imperialist America, with its whole foundation of slavery and genocide, with its whole history and continuing reality of white supremacy, the European-American nation is the oppressor nation. People of European descent, even those who are poor, powerless, and exploited—and even those who may have faced certain aspects of discrimination and prejudice, at least for a certain time, as part of immigrant ‘ethnic groups’—still share the status of being ‘white’ in America, with everything that means. They enjoy certain privileges in relation to people of other nationalities who are the oppressed nationalities. To put it simply, if you are ‘white’ in America, you may be treated badly, you may even suffer horribly at the hands of the system, particularly if you are without wealth and power, but you will not be subjected to certain kinds of discrimination and oppression that people of color cannot escape, even those who do accumulate a certain amount of wealth.

“At the same time, proletarians of all races and nationalities, who are exploited and dictated to under the rule of the capitalists, are all part of one, single, multinational proletariat. Fundamentally, they share a common fate and common interest as a class. For the class-conscious proletariat, for all those who become aware of and take up the revolutionary mission of the proletarian class, one of their most important goals is to completely abolish national oppression—to put an end to discrimination and inequality between nations and, in the U.S. in particular, to put an end to white supremacy and the domination of the European-American nation over peoples of color. This is an absolutely necessary and crucial part of the all-around revolutionary struggle to overthrow and eliminate this system and all forms of exploitation, inequality and oppression.” (from “After the Revolution: Dealing with ‘Racial Divisions,’” reprinted as Part III of the Black History Month series available online at revcom.us/blackhistorymonth)

A Better World Is Possible—
Get with the Revolution!

Human society has come to a place in its historical development where THERE IS NO NEED FOR THINGS TO BE THIS WAY. There is the basis for humanity to get beyond all this. Many people want and dream of a better world, where nooses will only exist on display in historical museums. The necessity and possibility exists to build a whole new economic and social system, a socialist society, in which the masses of people are mobilized and supported in getting rid of all oppressive and exploitative relations, including the oppression of Black people.

But that is only possible through revolution. This new system would get rid of the old capitalist economy that has fed on and reinforced white supremacy, and exploitation of all kinds, all over the world. It will bring in new political forms in which the masses can move to uproot the institutions and transform the thinking that has gone along with, and reinforced that exploitation. In regard to the struggle against white supremacy, that will be an extremely critical front—and the new state would both promote equality and integration throughout society, while it also brought into being areas of autonomy for Black people and other oppressed nationalities (as well as upholding the right of self-determination for Black people).

The article from Chairman Avakian which we cited earlier discusses in some depth what this would look like, including the relationship between integration in the society overall and the right to autonomous areas. He then goes on say:

“At the same time, as we have also made clear: These land and autonomy policies of the proletarian state will not mean that the oppressed peoples will have to live in these areas—which would amount to a new form of segregation. Instead the new proletarian state, while favoring and encouraging unity and integration, will ensure these formerly oppressed peoples’ right to autonomy as part of the policy of promoting real equality between nations and peoples.”

And, somewhat later in this same important article, he relates this crucial struggle against national oppression and inequality to the goal of transforming all of society:

“At the same time, there will not only be the general goal of developing and strengthening the unity of the proletariat and masses of people of all nationalities, on the basis of equality and the common struggle to radically transform all of society. There will also be concrete policies to make this a reality. The socialist state will encourage and promote the development of comradely relations among people of all nationalities, in every sphere of society; and, more specifically, it will foster and provide for the development of communities and neighborhoods, as well as workplaces and schools and other institutions, where people of all races and nationalities not only live and work side-by-side but actually develop close and deep relations of friendship and mutual support in the context of the overall struggle to revolutionize society, to eliminate and eradicate all inequalities and oppressive divisions among people. This struggle will be, and can only be, carried out on the basis of the increasingly conscious and voluntary unity and struggle of the masses of people of all races and nationalities. This is in accordance with and is a very important expression of the advance toward the final aim of communism, world-wide.

“Mao Tsetung gave a very concentrated and powerful description of the communist future, as the era when all of humanity consciously and voluntarily transform themselves and the world. This will be a world without oppression and exploitation, without differences and barriers of class or of nation—truly a global community of freely-associating human beings, sharing a fundamental unity and giving expression to great diversity. But, in order to carry out the world-historic revolutionary transformation to achieve communism, it is necessary to keep in mind the point emphasized by Lenin: The achievement of communism can only be realized through the exercise of the dictatorship of the proletariat in the new socialist society, as a transition to the abolition of all relations of oppression and exploitation and all class distinctions (and the abolition of the state as such, as the means for one class to suppress others). So, too, Lenin added, this world-historic transition will be marked by the struggle to bring about the liberation of colonies and oppressed nations and to achieve equality between all nations, as the necessary path to the ultimate abolition of national boundaries and of separate nations altogether, and the creation of the communist world community of freely-associating human beings. This must be the guiding principle of the proletariat in handling all the complexities of the struggle to overcome every aspect of unequal relations between races and nationalities, every vestige of national oppression, in every sphere of society and everywhere in the world.”

When you think about all this, it is truly inspiring. And it is also no wonder that these Klan types encourage their followers to bring signs saying “down with communism.” But from a historical standpoint, their day is past. Humanity needs revolution and communism!

Send us your comments.

Unapologetic Capitalist
5th December 2007, 19:37
Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 06:12 pm
Hello all: Venezuela is not the only place threatened by fascism in this world. US blacks and other minorities are in trouble, we must as revolutionaries deffend all blacks in this country who are harassed and terrorized by white nationalist fascism !!


Kluckers Threaten Jena March

Opposing White Supremacy...and Getting To a Far Better World
A white supremacist group recently announced plans to march and rally in Jena, Louisiana on Martin Luther King Jr. Day, January 21, 2008. These white racists, who call themselves the “Nationalist Movement,” are billing the event as “Jena Justice Day—No to Jena 6, No to King.” And they are very clear about what this means. In what was basically a free advertisement disguised as an article in the Jena Times, these cavemen kluckers were quoted encouraging people to bring homemade signs calling for jailing the Jena 6, opposing the Martin Luther King holiday, and “down with communism.” They suggested that people come in U.S. military or Confederate Civil War uniforms, and they even encouraged people to DISPLAY NOOSES!!

As for these racists and their march, we have one thing to say: THE DAY IS LONG SINCE PAST WHEN VIGILANTE RACISTS RUNNING AMOK AND TERRORIZING BLACK PEOPLE IS TOLERABLE. Go crawl back under your miserable rocks, and get out of the way.

But for those who argue that the Jena 6 case is about six Black youth who need to be punished for beating up a white student...and NOT about nooses being hung on a “whites-only” tree...this alone should make it very clear that this case is truly all about the fact that the nooses hung at Jena High School stood for a whole history and present-day reality of racism, oppression and discrimination…AND the fact that Black students resisted this.

The system came down HARD on six Black youth to make the point—that they will not allow defiant rebellion against the status quo of racist unequal justice, segregation and KKK terror. From the very beginning, high school administrators, city officials, the DA and judges AND officials from the U.S. Justice Department worked together to push forward the outrageous prosecution of the Jena 6. But as word spread throughout the country a real grassroots movement grew. On September 20, tens of thousands of Black people from all over the country demonstrated in Jena, and many more protested in other cities and towns.

But KKK-types then jumped out in a reactionary counter-attack. Families of the Jena 6 got death threats and a white supremacist website encouraged vigilante action against them by posting their names and addresses. As a result of the struggle of the people, the courts were forced to release one of the Jena 6, Mychal Bell, who had been unjustly imprisoned for 10 months. But no sooner was he out than they threw him right back in, supposedly for probation violation from “previous offenses.” Then the DA, the Jena Times newspaper, and the mayor went on a mission in the media to strike back, saying the real “victim” in all this is the white student, Justin Barker, who the Jena 6 are accused of beating up. And the media has also been a launching pad for vilifying the Jena 6 as gangsters and thugs. But support for the Jena 6 has continued to grow, especially among students, and in November thousands of people marched in DC against racist hate crimes, demanding that the Jena 6 be free.

But the DA is going forward with the prosecution of the Jena 6 (see “Update: The Battle to Free the Jena 6,” online at revcom.us). And now white supremacists are saying they will march with their nooses in Jena.

There is a real battle, a profound political struggle, going on that must take off to higher levels, with two sides fighting over a question that, right now, concentrates the oppression of Black people: WHAT WILL BE THE OUTCOME OF THE JENA 6 CASE?

And What Is Your “Southern Way of Life”?

The case of the Jena 6 shines a spotlight on the unequal oppressive social relations and institutions that exist today and are brutally enforced. This is why this case has struck such a nerve among so many Black people.

AND it is also why it has struck such a nerve among the most despicable and hateful proponents of white supremacy. And it is also why these white supremacists have come out swinging in defense of what they call their way of life.

But let’s look at Jena as an example of that “way of life.” Jena is segregated—where people live, where people hang out. The Black neighborhoods are mostly poor and neglected. You walk down the streets of the small downtown—you don’t see a lot of Black people, especially none working in any of the offices or stores. People in some Black neighborhoods will tell you the city doesn’t even come in to pick up the garbage, that they have to go dump their own garbage somewhere.

Caseptla Bailey, the mother of Robert Bailey (one of the Jena 6), is 56 years old and a former Air Force officer. She has a degree in business management, but says she cannot get a job as a bank teller. She lives in an area in Jena called Ward 10 where the majority of Black people live in trailers or wooden shacks. She says whites don’t live here at all. She says, “We want to live better, we want better housing.”

Talk to other Black people who live in Jena. They’ll tell you about how a Black man was stomped to death by a gang of white guys because he bumped into a white woman. You’ll hear other accounts of Black people being attacked, beaten up, killed. Maybe it was a Black man who dated a white woman. Maybe it was a Black youth with an attitude a white cop didn’t like. Or maybe it was someone attacked just for being Black.

It’s not that surprising there was a “whites-only” tree at Jena High School.

On the road leading right out of Jena, you pass a big mansion on a hill, standing all by itself. There’s a big iron fence around it, with a huge gate blocking the driveway. The whole thing is adorned with American AND Confederate flags. Stop at a gas station on the way to Jena and go into the gift shop and see trinkets for sale—ceramic figures of degrading caricatures of Black people. You see t-shirts for sale with Confederate flags and slogans openly promoting white supremacy.

In a place like Jena, you feel the echoes of slavery. You can’t help but be reminded that on this very ground, in these very places, kidnapped Africans were bought and sold, shackled and worked to death. Children ripped from their parents’ hands at the auction block. Plantations where Black people created tremendous wealth for their owners. And white slave-catchers hunted down runaway slaves. THIS economic system of slavery is at the very foundation of the whole way the capitalist system developed and grew in this country.

It took nothing less than the Civil War to end slavery in this country. But even this did not end the systemic oppression and super-exploitation of Black people. Instead, capitalism “re-integrated” millions of Black people in the South into new forms of oppression. Now they were to be exploited as sharecroppers, sometimes working on the same plantation land they, or their parents and grandparents, had worked on as slaves. And coming out of this and in turn propping up all this was the persistent “Southern culture” of KKK cross burnings, lynchings, and Jim Crow laws that required “white only” and “Black only” public schools, drinking fountains, trains, buses and all kinds of other public places.

And this continues right down to today. White racists—admitted and otherwise—will argue that they are just upholding “proud traditions,” “Southern culture,” and “the way of life our parents and grandparents have all enjoyed.” And down in Jena some who loudly say that they are not racist will, in the same conversation, tell you that Black people are dangerous, lazy, criminals with a lower innate intelligence than white people. This is the kind of culture and thinking that in turn bolsters and justifies all the ways that capitalism profits off of the exploitation and oppression of the masses of Black people—subjecting them to the lowest-paid jobs, the worst working conditions, the worst neighborhoods with little or no social services, and the highest unemployment rates.

These unequal and oppressive relations have been and continue to be brutally enforced. And while Black people no longer mainly face widespread lynching and cross-burnings—though the KKK would like to bring them back and there was a cross-burning just recently “up south” in Peekskill, New York—they do face the widespread terror of police brutality and murder.

Now these KKKers have come way out there, and no doubt some of the “good whites” will distance themselves. But these kluckers have been produced by a very specific society, with very specific economic relations and a specific history. In this country the exploitation and oppression of Black people have been built into the whole process of the accumulation of wealth by the capitalist class, from its very beginnings, and first the slaveholders and now these capitalists have built up a whole superstructure of ideas to justify it. At first, it was the Bible; now they still use the Bible, but add onto it pseudo-scientific bullshit about “inherited IQs” and vicious non-stop television shows like Cops, etc.

The division in this country between white people and Black people—and expressions this takes in lynchings and police murder, in “everyday” discrimination and the pervasive racist ideas and attitudes—is deeply rooted in this economic structure and the social relations that go along with this, and it is pushed forward and supported by conscious policies of the big capitalist-imperialists who run this society. Here’s what Bob Avakian, the leader of the RCP, said about this in an article reprinted in Revolution earlier this year:

“Within the U.S. itself, one of the main and most ugly features of the capitalist-imperialist system is the great division between people of the European-American nation (white people) and peoples of color. This great division is not just a matter of racist ideas and attitudes, among white people in particular—although that is one expression of it. This division is deeply rooted in the historical development and the present-day economic and social structure of U.S. society. In imperialist America, with its whole foundation of slavery and genocide, with its whole history and continuing reality of white supremacy, the European-American nation is the oppressor nation. People of European descent, even those who are poor, powerless, and exploited—and even those who may have faced certain aspects of discrimination and prejudice, at least for a certain time, as part of immigrant ‘ethnic groups’—still share the status of being ‘white’ in America, with everything that means. They enjoy certain privileges in relation to people of other nationalities who are the oppressed nationalities. To put it simply, if you are ‘white’ in America, you may be treated badly, you may even suffer horribly at the hands of the system, particularly if you are without wealth and power, but you will not be subjected to certain kinds of discrimination and oppression that people of color cannot escape, even those who do accumulate a certain amount of wealth.

“At the same time, proletarians of all races and nationalities, who are exploited and dictated to under the rule of the capitalists, are all part of one, single, multinational proletariat. Fundamentally, they share a common fate and common interest as a class. For the class-conscious proletariat, for all those who become aware of and take up the revolutionary mission of the proletarian class, one of their most important goals is to completely abolish national oppression—to put an end to discrimination and inequality between nations and, in the U.S. in particular, to put an end to white supremacy and the domination of the European-American nation over peoples of color. This is an absolutely necessary and crucial part of the all-around revolutionary struggle to overthrow and eliminate this system and all forms of exploitation, inequality and oppression.” (from “After the Revolution: Dealing with ‘Racial Divisions,’” reprinted as Part III of the Black History Month series available online at revcom.us/blackhistorymonth)

A Better World Is Possible—
Get with the Revolution!

Human society has come to a place in its historical development where THERE IS NO NEED FOR THINGS TO BE THIS WAY. There is the basis for humanity to get beyond all this. Many people want and dream of a better world, where nooses will only exist on display in historical museums. The necessity and possibility exists to build a whole new economic and social system, a socialist society, in which the masses of people are mobilized and supported in getting rid of all oppressive and exploitative relations, including the oppression of Black people.

But that is only possible through revolution. This new system would get rid of the old capitalist economy that has fed on and reinforced white supremacy, and exploitation of all kinds, all over the world. It will bring in new political forms in which the masses can move to uproot the institutions and transform the thinking that has gone along with, and reinforced that exploitation. In regard to the struggle against white supremacy, that will be an extremely critical front—and the new state would both promote equality and integration throughout society, while it also brought into being areas of autonomy for Black people and other oppressed nationalities (as well as upholding the right of self-determination for Black people).

The article from Chairman Avakian which we cited earlier discusses in some depth what this would look like, including the relationship between integration in the society overall and the right to autonomous areas. He then goes on say:

“At the same time, as we have also made clear: These land and autonomy policies of the proletarian state will not mean that the oppressed peoples will have to live in these areas—which would amount to a new form of segregation. Instead the new proletarian state, while favoring and encouraging unity and integration, will ensure these formerly oppressed peoples’ right to autonomy as part of the policy of promoting real equality between nations and peoples.”

And, somewhat later in this same important article, he relates this crucial struggle against national oppression and inequality to the goal of transforming all of society:

“At the same time, there will not only be the general goal of developing and strengthening the unity of the proletariat and masses of people of all nationalities, on the basis of equality and the common struggle to radically transform all of society. There will also be concrete policies to make this a reality. The socialist state will encourage and promote the development of comradely relations among people of all nationalities, in every sphere of society; and, more specifically, it will foster and provide for the development of communities and neighborhoods, as well as workplaces and schools and other institutions, where people of all races and nationalities not only live and work side-by-side but actually develop close and deep relations of friendship and mutual support in the context of the overall struggle to revolutionize society, to eliminate and eradicate all inequalities and oppressive divisions among people. This struggle will be, and can only be, carried out on the basis of the increasingly conscious and voluntary unity and struggle of the masses of people of all races and nationalities. This is in accordance with and is a very important expression of the advance toward the final aim of communism, world-wide.

“Mao Tsetung gave a very concentrated and powerful description of the communist future, as the era when all of humanity consciously and voluntarily transform themselves and the world. This will be a world without oppression and exploitation, without differences and barriers of class or of nation—truly a global community of freely-associating human beings, sharing a fundamental unity and giving expression to great diversity. But, in order to carry out the world-historic revolutionary transformation to achieve communism, it is necessary to keep in mind the point emphasized by Lenin: The achievement of communism can only be realized through the exercise of the dictatorship of the proletariat in the new socialist society, as a transition to the abolition of all relations of oppression and exploitation and all class distinctions (and the abolition of the state as such, as the means for one class to suppress others). So, too, Lenin added, this world-historic transition will be marked by the struggle to bring about the liberation of colonies and oppressed nations and to achieve equality between all nations, as the necessary path to the ultimate abolition of national boundaries and of separate nations altogether, and the creation of the communist world community of freely-associating human beings. This must be the guiding principle of the proletariat in handling all the complexities of the struggle to overcome every aspect of unequal relations between races and nationalities, every vestige of national oppression, in every sphere of society and everywhere in the world.”

When you think about all this, it is truly inspiring. And it is also no wonder that these Klan types encourage their followers to bring signs saying “down with communism.” But from a historical standpoint, their day is past. Humanity needs revolution and communism!

Send us your comments.
Just one point: if white nationalists actually wanted to engage in vigilante action, someone would be dead by now. The fact that none of the Jena 6 have been killed and none of the protestors have been killed is a pretty clear sign that vigilante violence is not intended.

Dros
5th December 2007, 20:41
Originally posted by Unapologetic [email protected] 05, 2007 07:36 pm
Just one point: if white nationalists actually wanted to engage in vigilante action, someone would be dead by now. The fact that none of the Jena 6 have been killed and none of the protestors have been killed is a pretty clear sign that vigilante violence is not intended.
No offence or anything but, judging by your name, you should be restricted.

As for your argument: Not at all. The White Nationalists (that is outside the U.S. Gov't) have realized that when they blatantly kill people the FBI comes down on them hard. The fact that the Jena 6 are imprison on these rediculous charges and not the people who have been slinging nooses demonstrates the white nationalist tendency of the U.S. gov't and the gov't of Louisiana.

marxist_god
5th December 2007, 21:27
Originally posted by drosera99+December 05, 2007 08:40 pm--> (drosera99 @ December 05, 2007 08:40 pm)
Unapologetic [email protected] 05, 2007 07:36 pm
Just one point: if white nationalists actually wanted to engage in vigilante action, someone would be dead by now. The fact that none of the Jena 6 have been killed and none of the protestors have been killed is a pretty clear sign that vigilante violence is not intended.
No offence or anything but, judging by your name, you should be restricted.

As for your argument: Not at all. The White Nationalists (that is outside the U.S. Gov't) have realized that when they blatantly kill people the FBI comes down on them hard. The fact that the Jena 6 are imprison on these rediculous charges and not the people who have been slinging nooses demonstrates the white nationalist tendency of the U.S. gov't and the gov't of Louisiana. [/b]

Hello, hahaha, it's ok, let the capitalists be in this forum. Remember that capitalist people are not evil, but victims of the capitalist system indoctrinating system. The upper ruling classes, and the whole capitalist system of exploitation and plunder

marxist_god

Unapologetic Capitalist
5th December 2007, 21:30
Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 08:40 pm
No offence or anything but, judging by your name, you should be restricted.

As for your argument: Not at all. The White Nationalists (that is outside the U.S. Gov't) have realized that when they blatantly kill people the FBI comes down on them hard. The fact that the Jena 6 are imprison on these rediculous charges and not the people who have been slinging nooses demonstrates the white nationalist tendency of the U.S. gov't and the gov't of Louisiana.
No offense taken (I'm new, which I suspect is why I haven't be restricted yet).

That said, the fact that the FBI comes down hard on white nationlists when they commit murder is a sign that that government is not exactly a hub of nationalist fervor (contrast with Sudan, where Arab-nationalists do control the government, and the response to murder over there).

Furthermore, why should the government crack down on noose-slingers? Don't misunderstand me: I think it's repulsive, and in an ideal world the culprits would be punished. However, the culprits aren't actually hurting anyone. Most of the blacks in Jena weren't even very offended (several of the black teachers, for instance, were happy to write it off as a joke in bad taste). A mature person should be able to deal with it (just like police officers deal with being called "pigs"). In contrast, beating a student actually does hurt someone.

marxist_god
5th December 2007, 21:33
Originally posted by Unapologetic Capitalist+December 05, 2007 07:36 pm--> (Unapologetic Capitalist @ December 05, 2007 07:36 pm)
[email protected] 05, 2007 06:12 pm
Hello all: Venezuela is not the only place threatened by fascism in this world. US blacks and other minorities are in trouble, we must as revolutionaries deffend all blacks in this country who are harassed and terrorized by white nationalist fascism !!


Kluckers Threaten Jena March

Opposing White Supremacy...and Getting To a Far Better World
A white supremacist group recently announced plans to march and rally in Jena, Louisiana on Martin Luther King Jr. Day, January 21, 2008. These white racists, who call themselves the “Nationalist Movement,” are billing the event as “Jena Justice Day—No to Jena 6, No to King.” And they are very clear about what this means. In what was basically a free advertisement disguised as an article in the Jena Times, these cavemen kluckers were quoted encouraging people to bring homemade signs calling for jailing the Jena 6, opposing the Martin Luther King holiday, and “down with communism.” They suggested that people come in U.S. military or Confederate Civil War uniforms, and they even encouraged people to DISPLAY NOOSES!!

As for these racists and their march, we have one thing to say: THE DAY IS LONG SINCE PAST WHEN VIGILANTE RACISTS RUNNING AMOK AND TERRORIZING BLACK PEOPLE IS TOLERABLE. Go crawl back under your miserable rocks, and get out of the way.

But for those who argue that the Jena 6 case is about six Black youth who need to be punished for beating up a white student...and NOT about nooses being hung on a “whites-only” tree...this alone should make it very clear that this case is truly all about the fact that the nooses hung at Jena High School stood for a whole history and present-day reality of racism, oppression and discrimination…AND the fact that Black students resisted this.

The system came down HARD on six Black youth to make the point—that they will not allow defiant rebellion against the status quo of racist unequal justice, segregation and KKK terror. From the very beginning, high school administrators, city officials, the DA and judges AND officials from the U.S. Justice Department worked together to push forward the outrageous prosecution of the Jena 6. But as word spread throughout the country a real grassroots movement grew. On September 20, tens of thousands of Black people from all over the country demonstrated in Jena, and many more protested in other cities and towns.

But KKK-types then jumped out in a reactionary counter-attack. Families of the Jena 6 got death threats and a white supremacist website encouraged vigilante action against them by posting their names and addresses. As a result of the struggle of the people, the courts were forced to release one of the Jena 6, Mychal Bell, who had been unjustly imprisoned for 10 months. But no sooner was he out than they threw him right back in, supposedly for probation violation from “previous offenses.” Then the DA, the Jena Times newspaper, and the mayor went on a mission in the media to strike back, saying the real “victim” in all this is the white student, Justin Barker, who the Jena 6 are accused of beating up. And the media has also been a launching pad for vilifying the Jena 6 as gangsters and thugs. But support for the Jena 6 has continued to grow, especially among students, and in November thousands of people marched in DC against racist hate crimes, demanding that the Jena 6 be free.

But the DA is going forward with the prosecution of the Jena 6 (see “Update: The Battle to Free the Jena 6,” online at revcom.us). And now white supremacists are saying they will march with their nooses in Jena.

There is a real battle, a profound political struggle, going on that must take off to higher levels, with two sides fighting over a question that, right now, concentrates the oppression of Black people: WHAT WILL BE THE OUTCOME OF THE JENA 6 CASE?

And What Is Your “Southern Way of Life”?

The case of the Jena 6 shines a spotlight on the unequal oppressive social relations and institutions that exist today and are brutally enforced. This is why this case has struck such a nerve among so many Black people.

AND it is also why it has struck such a nerve among the most despicable and hateful proponents of white supremacy. And it is also why these white supremacists have come out swinging in defense of what they call their way of life.

But let’s look at Jena as an example of that “way of life.” Jena is segregated—where people live, where people hang out. The Black neighborhoods are mostly poor and neglected. You walk down the streets of the small downtown—you don’t see a lot of Black people, especially none working in any of the offices or stores. People in some Black neighborhoods will tell you the city doesn’t even come in to pick up the garbage, that they have to go dump their own garbage somewhere.

Caseptla Bailey, the mother of Robert Bailey (one of the Jena 6), is 56 years old and a former Air Force officer. She has a degree in business management, but says she cannot get a job as a bank teller. She lives in an area in Jena called Ward 10 where the majority of Black people live in trailers or wooden shacks. She says whites don’t live here at all. She says, “We want to live better, we want better housing.”

Talk to other Black people who live in Jena. They’ll tell you about how a Black man was stomped to death by a gang of white guys because he bumped into a white woman. You’ll hear other accounts of Black people being attacked, beaten up, killed. Maybe it was a Black man who dated a white woman. Maybe it was a Black youth with an attitude a white cop didn’t like. Or maybe it was someone attacked just for being Black.

It’s not that surprising there was a “whites-only” tree at Jena High School.

On the road leading right out of Jena, you pass a big mansion on a hill, standing all by itself. There’s a big iron fence around it, with a huge gate blocking the driveway. The whole thing is adorned with American AND Confederate flags. Stop at a gas station on the way to Jena and go into the gift shop and see trinkets for sale—ceramic figures of degrading caricatures of Black people. You see t-shirts for sale with Confederate flags and slogans openly promoting white supremacy.

In a place like Jena, you feel the echoes of slavery. You can’t help but be reminded that on this very ground, in these very places, kidnapped Africans were bought and sold, shackled and worked to death. Children ripped from their parents’ hands at the auction block. Plantations where Black people created tremendous wealth for their owners. And white slave-catchers hunted down runaway slaves. THIS economic system of slavery is at the very foundation of the whole way the capitalist system developed and grew in this country.

It took nothing less than the Civil War to end slavery in this country. But even this did not end the systemic oppression and super-exploitation of Black people. Instead, capitalism “re-integrated” millions of Black people in the South into new forms of oppression. Now they were to be exploited as sharecroppers, sometimes working on the same plantation land they, or their parents and grandparents, had worked on as slaves. And coming out of this and in turn propping up all this was the persistent “Southern culture” of KKK cross burnings, lynchings, and Jim Crow laws that required “white only” and “Black only” public schools, drinking fountains, trains, buses and all kinds of other public places.

And this continues right down to today. White racists—admitted and otherwise—will argue that they are just upholding “proud traditions,” “Southern culture,” and “the way of life our parents and grandparents have all enjoyed.” And down in Jena some who loudly say that they are not racist will, in the same conversation, tell you that Black people are dangerous, lazy, criminals with a lower innate intelligence than white people. This is the kind of culture and thinking that in turn bolsters and justifies all the ways that capitalism profits off of the exploitation and oppression of the masses of Black people—subjecting them to the lowest-paid jobs, the worst working conditions, the worst neighborhoods with little or no social services, and the highest unemployment rates.

These unequal and oppressive relations have been and continue to be brutally enforced. And while Black people no longer mainly face widespread lynching and cross-burnings—though the KKK would like to bring them back and there was a cross-burning just recently “up south” in Peekskill, New York—they do face the widespread terror of police brutality and murder.

Now these KKKers have come way out there, and no doubt some of the “good whites” will distance themselves. But these kluckers have been produced by a very specific society, with very specific economic relations and a specific history. In this country the exploitation and oppression of Black people have been built into the whole process of the accumulation of wealth by the capitalist class, from its very beginnings, and first the slaveholders and now these capitalists have built up a whole superstructure of ideas to justify it. At first, it was the Bible; now they still use the Bible, but add onto it pseudo-scientific bullshit about “inherited IQs” and vicious non-stop television shows like Cops, etc.

The division in this country between white people and Black people—and expressions this takes in lynchings and police murder, in “everyday” discrimination and the pervasive racist ideas and attitudes—is deeply rooted in this economic structure and the social relations that go along with this, and it is pushed forward and supported by conscious policies of the big capitalist-imperialists who run this society. Here’s what Bob Avakian, the leader of the RCP, said about this in an article reprinted in Revolution earlier this year:

“Within the U.S. itself, one of the main and most ugly features of the capitalist-imperialist system is the great division between people of the European-American nation (white people) and peoples of color. This great division is not just a matter of racist ideas and attitudes, among white people in particular—although that is one expression of it. This division is deeply rooted in the historical development and the present-day economic and social structure of U.S. society. In imperialist America, with its whole foundation of slavery and genocide, with its whole history and continuing reality of white supremacy, the European-American nation is the oppressor nation. People of European descent, even those who are poor, powerless, and exploited—and even those who may have faced certain aspects of discrimination and prejudice, at least for a certain time, as part of immigrant ‘ethnic groups’—still share the status of being ‘white’ in America, with everything that means. They enjoy certain privileges in relation to people of other nationalities who are the oppressed nationalities. To put it simply, if you are ‘white’ in America, you may be treated badly, you may even suffer horribly at the hands of the system, particularly if you are without wealth and power, but you will not be subjected to certain kinds of discrimination and oppression that people of color cannot escape, even those who do accumulate a certain amount of wealth.

“At the same time, proletarians of all races and nationalities, who are exploited and dictated to under the rule of the capitalists, are all part of one, single, multinational proletariat. Fundamentally, they share a common fate and common interest as a class. For the class-conscious proletariat, for all those who become aware of and take up the revolutionary mission of the proletarian class, one of their most important goals is to completely abolish national oppression—to put an end to discrimination and inequality between nations and, in the U.S. in particular, to put an end to white supremacy and the domination of the European-American nation over peoples of color. This is an absolutely necessary and crucial part of the all-around revolutionary struggle to overthrow and eliminate this system and all forms of exploitation, inequality and oppression.” (from “After the Revolution: Dealing with ‘Racial Divisions,’” reprinted as Part III of the Black History Month series available online at revcom.us/blackhistorymonth)

A Better World Is Possible—
Get with the Revolution!

Human society has come to a place in its historical development where THERE IS NO NEED FOR THINGS TO BE THIS WAY. There is the basis for humanity to get beyond all this. Many people want and dream of a better world, where nooses will only exist on display in historical museums. The necessity and possibility exists to build a whole new economic and social system, a socialist society, in which the masses of people are mobilized and supported in getting rid of all oppressive and exploitative relations, including the oppression of Black people.

But that is only possible through revolution. This new system would get rid of the old capitalist economy that has fed on and reinforced white supremacy, and exploitation of all kinds, all over the world. It will bring in new political forms in which the masses can move to uproot the institutions and transform the thinking that has gone along with, and reinforced that exploitation. In regard to the struggle against white supremacy, that will be an extremely critical front—and the new state would both promote equality and integration throughout society, while it also brought into being areas of autonomy for Black people and other oppressed nationalities (as well as upholding the right of self-determination for Black people).

The article from Chairman Avakian which we cited earlier discusses in some depth what this would look like, including the relationship between integration in the society overall and the right to autonomous areas. He then goes on say:

“At the same time, as we have also made clear: These land and autonomy policies of the proletarian state will not mean that the oppressed peoples will have to live in these areas—which would amount to a new form of segregation. Instead the new proletarian state, while favoring and encouraging unity and integration, will ensure these formerly oppressed peoples’ right to autonomy as part of the policy of promoting real equality between nations and peoples.”

And, somewhat later in this same important article, he relates this crucial struggle against national oppression and inequality to the goal of transforming all of society:

“At the same time, there will not only be the general goal of developing and strengthening the unity of the proletariat and masses of people of all nationalities, on the basis of equality and the common struggle to radically transform all of society. There will also be concrete policies to make this a reality. The socialist state will encourage and promote the development of comradely relations among people of all nationalities, in every sphere of society; and, more specifically, it will foster and provide for the development of communities and neighborhoods, as well as workplaces and schools and other institutions, where people of all races and nationalities not only live and work side-by-side but actually develop close and deep relations of friendship and mutual support in the context of the overall struggle to revolutionize society, to eliminate and eradicate all inequalities and oppressive divisions among people. This struggle will be, and can only be, carried out on the basis of the increasingly conscious and voluntary unity and struggle of the masses of people of all races and nationalities. This is in accordance with and is a very important expression of the advance toward the final aim of communism, world-wide.

“Mao Tsetung gave a very concentrated and powerful description of the communist future, as the era when all of humanity consciously and voluntarily transform themselves and the world. This will be a world without oppression and exploitation, without differences and barriers of class or of nation—truly a global community of freely-associating human beings, sharing a fundamental unity and giving expression to great diversity. But, in order to carry out the world-historic revolutionary transformation to achieve communism, it is necessary to keep in mind the point emphasized by Lenin: The achievement of communism can only be realized through the exercise of the dictatorship of the proletariat in the new socialist society, as a transition to the abolition of all relations of oppression and exploitation and all class distinctions (and the abolition of the state as such, as the means for one class to suppress others). So, too, Lenin added, this world-historic transition will be marked by the struggle to bring about the liberation of colonies and oppressed nations and to achieve equality between all nations, as the necessary path to the ultimate abolition of national boundaries and of separate nations altogether, and the creation of the communist world community of freely-associating human beings. This must be the guiding principle of the proletariat in handling all the complexities of the struggle to overcome every aspect of unequal relations between races and nationalities, every vestige of national oppression, in every sphere of society and everywhere in the world.”

When you think about all this, it is truly inspiring. And it is also no wonder that these Klan types encourage their followers to bring signs saying “down with communism.” But from a historical standpoint, their day is past. Humanity needs revolution and communism!

Send us your comments.
Just one point: if white nationalists actually wanted to engage in vigilante action, someone would be dead by now. The fact that none of the Jena 6 have been killed and none of the protestors have been killed is a pretty clear sign that vigilante violence is not intended. [/b]


Hello my friend, excuse me but police brutality is on the rise in USA:


http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blo...07/12/05/p21623 (http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/voices.php/2007/12/05/p21623)

America is a hell hole of police repression and violence against american people. Police brutality and murders in small town rural areas were concentrated mostly in the South, and were exemplified primarily by police-permitted lynchings and torture deaths directed towards black Americans in those locales. Video cameras for citizen control by police are everywhere in America, and are being expanded exponentially. Police now carry fully automatic machine-guns as “standard operating procedure” or SOP. Police dress up in “SWAT” semi-military gear letting America know that they are prepared to shoot and kill with minimum provocation.


marxist_god

JWG
5th December 2007, 21:36
The racism in America has always been an underlying problem. Just today on my school bus, a white kid took a vote from everyone is another kid (mixed racially) looks white or black. Since his skin was a tanner tone, the vote was black by 2-3.

I thought this was just a friendly joke. Then the kid said, "See, nigger..nigger..nigger." Then proceeded to shout, "White power!" This all coming from a kid about the age of 13 or 14. I found it appalling and felt for the young fellow taking the abuse.

It definitely is a problem that should not go unchecked. The problem is, it is deeply in-routed in many families who fathers father was racist, etc. It's engulfed in the culture here sadly.

For a nation who thrives on immigrants, we sure do treat them badly.

Unapologetic Capitalist
6th December 2007, 01:33
Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 09:35 pm
The racism in America has always been an underlying problem. Just today on my school bus, a white kid took a vote from everyone is another kid (mixed racially) looks white or black. Since his skin was a tanner tone, the vote was black by 2-3.

I thought this was just a friendly joke. Then the kid said, "See, nigger..nigger..nigger." Then proceeded to shout, "White power!" This all coming from a kid about the age of 13 or 14. I found it appalling and felt for the young fellow taking the abuse.

It definitely is a problem that should not go unchecked. The problem is, it is deeply in-routed in many families who fathers father was racist, etc. It's engulfed in the culture here sadly.

For a nation who thrives on immigrants, we sure do treat them badly.
Look, I don't want to undermine the severity of this story or anything, but teasing happens in high schools. Kids break social mores intentionally. It's not a sign of hate.

Is the kid who shouted "nigger" an idiot and ass? Probably. In all likelihood, is he really any different from the kids who tease glasses-wearers or social misfits? Probably not.

Unapologetic Capitalist
6th December 2007, 01:44
Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 09:32 pm
Hello my friend, excuse me but police brutality is on the rise in USA:


http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blo...07/12/05/p21623 (http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/voices.php/2007/12/05/p21623)

America is a hell hole of police repression and violence against american people. Police brutality and murders in small town rural areas were concentrated mostly in the South, and were exemplified primarily by police-permitted lynchings and torture deaths directed towards black Americans in those locales. Video cameras for citizen control by police are everywhere in America, and are being expanded exponentially. Police now carry fully automatic machine-guns as “standard operating procedure” or SOP. Police dress up in “SWAT” semi-military gear letting America know that they are prepared to shoot and kill with minimum provocation.


marxist_god
I'll agree that police brutality is a problem, and you have perfectly valid concerns. However, I think you need to note a few things:

1. Police brutality is not necessarily a function of racist sentiment (not that you alleged it was, I'm just stating this in the context of the thread).

2. The US is a huge country. Having many examples of police brutality does not necessarily point to an unusually corrupt system; we just have more cops and more people, and therefore more potential for abuse (plus, on whole, we're still in excellent shape when compared with most of the world).

3. The US enjoys greater stability than many countries, in part because we have a very well-armed police force. Unlike much of Europe (another developed area, but one with more restricted police), we don't routinely contend with riots, runaway organized crime or neighborhoods in major cities that are "off-limits" to authority figures (these phenomenon may be noticed, respectively, in France, Russia and Denmark [though some apply to multiple countries]).

4. The US has a history of brutality (like lynchings) in part because we have an unusually ethnically diverse country. This creates strife and abuse. Now that other areas are becoming more ethnically diverse (e.g. Europe and parts of Asia), they're experiencing the same difficulties.

Zurdito
6th December 2007, 01:59
Originally posted by Unapologetic [email protected] 06, 2007 01:43 am
4. The US has a history of brutality (like lynchings) in part because we have an unusually ethnically diverse country. This creates strife and abuse. Now that other areas are becoming more ethnically diverse (e.g. Europe and parts of Asia), they're experiencing the same difficulties.

This might be one of the most blithely insulting posts I've read in a while - I certainly don't expect to read this shit on a communist website.

"Ethnic differences" cause lynching? What a fucking joke. A system built on slavery, forced transportation, violent conquest and segregation caused lynching, more like.

Also, I wasn't aware that lynchings were now common place across Europe and Asia. :rolleyes:

and finally, lynching is not a "difficulty" to be solved by some detached yet benign technocrat. It's an act of barbarism, the root causes of which can only be changed by the victim group itself, through its own liberationa nd eradication of its opressors. Remember what forum you're on. Oh, and have fun in OI :)

Unapologetic Capitalist
6th December 2007, 02:38
Originally posted by Zurdito+December 06, 2007 01:58 am--> (Zurdito @ December 06, 2007 01:58 am)
Unapologetic [email protected] 06, 2007 01:43 am
4. The US has a history of brutality (like lynchings) in part because we have an unusually ethnically diverse country. This creates strife and abuse. Now that other areas are becoming more ethnically diverse (e.g. Europe and parts of Asia), they're experiencing the same difficulties.

This might be one of the most blithely insulting posts I've read in a while - I certainly don't expect to read this shit on a communist website.

"Ethnic differences" cause lynching? What a fucking joke. A system built on slavery, forced transportation, violent conquest and segregation caused lynching, more like.

Also, I wasn't aware that lynchings were now common place across Europe and Asia. :rolleyes:

and finally, lynching is not a "difficulty" to be solved by some detached yet benign technocrat. It's an act of barbarism, the root causes of which can only be changed by the victim group itself, through its own liberationa nd eradication of its opressors. Remember what forum you're on. Oh, and have fun in OI :) [/b]
Ethnic differences almost inevitably lead to strife. That's why there's violence in northern India (Hindu-associated ethnic groups vs. Muslim associated ones), Africa (Hutus vs. Tutsis vs. Bantus), South America (Quechua vs. other indigenous groups vs. Europeans) and just about any place else where multiple groups mix. Humans are aggressive creatures; ethnic lines double as good battle lines.

As for lynchings in Europe and Asia: maybe not lynchings, but you do have the Tamil Tigers and their civil war, numerous Muslim attempts at genocide of Hindus in Kashmere and frequent race-centered riots in France, Denmark and the Netherlands.

Zurdito
6th December 2007, 04:01
where do you think those ethnic differences come from, UC?

also your idea of a Quechua strife against other ethnic groups is wrong. In South America class is often expressed in ethnic terms, ie the poor are the "indios" or "negros" and the rich are the "blancos". Within the poor, the urban are usually classed as mestizo, and the rural as "indio". However the clear struggle there is NOT ethnic, but proletarian/peasantry vs bourgeoisie. Evo Morales sought to unite this struggle by classing the proletariate as "indigena" too. Either way, I challenge you to give any in depth analysis of the struggles there and conclude that they are primarily ethnic struggles and not class based ones which are occassionally expressed in ethnic terms.

In fact I challenge you to go into any real depth about those conflicts you mentioned and show us that ethnicity is the root cause rather than at the least a euphemism for class, and at most a diversion from it. You could start by defining ethnicity.

In other words, if you come onto a communsit forum, *please try harder* rather than just reeling off half-baked arguments we could get on any 2-bob petty-bourgeois blog.

Comrade Rage
6th December 2007, 04:19
Originally posted by Unapologetic Capitalist+December 05, 2007 08:37 pm--> (Unapologetic Capitalist @ December 05, 2007 08:37 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 01:58 am

Unapologetic [email protected] 06, 2007 01:43 am
4. The US has a history of brutality (like lynchings) in part because we have an unusually ethnically diverse country. This creates strife and abuse. Now that other areas are becoming more ethnically diverse (e.g. Europe and parts of Asia), they're experiencing the same difficulties.

This might be one of the most blithely insulting posts I've read in a while - I certainly don't expect to read this shit on a communist website.

"Ethnic differences" cause lynching? What a fucking joke. A system built on slavery, forced transportation, violent conquest and segregation caused lynching, more like.

Also, I wasn't aware that lynchings were now common place across Europe and Asia. :rolleyes:

and finally, lynching is not a "difficulty" to be solved by some detached yet benign technocrat. It's an act of barbarism, the root causes of which can only be changed by the victim group itself, through its own liberationa nd eradication of its opressors. Remember what forum you're on. Oh, and have fun in OI :)
Ethnic differences almost inevitably lead to strife. That's why there's violence in northern India (Hindu-associated ethnic groups vs. Muslim associated ones), Africa (Hutus vs. Tutsis vs. Bantus), South America (Quechua vs. other indigenous groups vs. Europeans) and just about any place else where multiple groups mix. Humans are aggressive creatures; ethnic lines double as good battle lines.

As for lynchings in Europe and Asia: maybe not lynchings, but you do have the Tamil Tigers and their civil war, numerous Muslim attempts at genocide of Hindus in Kashmere and frequent race-centered riots in France, Denmark and the Netherlands. [/b]
Have fun in OI, you TROLL!!

Anyway, before this Unapologetic Troll came in, we were talking about this racist march? Should we have an anti-fa presence there? I'm not sure if I'll be able to get a couple of days off to go down there.

Unapologetic Capitalist
6th December 2007, 04:39
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 04:00 am
where do you think those ethnic differences come from, UC?

also your idea of a Quechua strife against other ethnic groups is wrong. In South America class is often expressed in ethnic terms, ie the poor are the "indios" or "negros" and the rich are the "blancos". Within the poor, the urban are usually classed as mestizo, and the rural as "indio". However the clear struggle there is NOT ethnic, but proletarian/peasantry vs bourgeoisie. Evo Morales sought to unite this struggle by classing the proletariate as "indigena" too. Either way, I challenge you to give any in depth analysis of the struggles there and conclude that they are primarily ethnic struggles and not class based ones which are occassionally expressed in ethnic terms.

In fact I challenge you to go into any real depth about those conflicts you mentioned and show us that ethnicity is the root cause rather than at the least a euphemism for class, and at most a diversion from it. You could start by defining ethnicity.

In other words, if you come onto a communsit forum, *please try harder* rather than just reeling off half-baked arguments we could get on any 2-bob petty-bourgeois blog.
An ethnicity is any group that, due to a historical period of isolation, has developed identifiable physical traits (usually also distinguished by unique cultural traits).

Look, I've worked with the Quechua. I have friends who've been missionaries there (yes, as in Christian missionaries) for years. They consider themselves a distinct group, and they don't like the non-hill dwelling groups. This doesn't have to do with capitalism; it has to do with the fact that these groups have been fighting for years because ethnic lines make good battle lines.

Look, here's how you can show me wrong: find me one example of multiple ethnic groups (as I defined them, and as identified by the natives) co-existing peacefully for extended periods of time. It can be before or after industrialization and the bourgeoisie, whichever you prefer. CAVEAT: Imperial peaces (e.g. Pax Romana) don't count, since they were imposed by force).

Zurdito
6th December 2007, 04:50
Look, I've worked with the Quechua. I have friends who've been missionaries there (yes, as in Christian missionaries) for years. They consider themselves a distinct group, and they don't like the non-hill dwelling groups. This doesn't have to do with capitalism; it has to do with the fact that these groups have been fighting for years because ethnic lines make good battle lines.

well I spent half my life in Latin America, and the last 2 years in England amongst the academic elite of Britain which studies indigenous groups in Latin America, so your missionary tales don't impress me. I never met one serious social scientist who backs up your belief that "them there Indians always been fightin each other and always will, it's in their nature". I know the Quechua consider themselves a distinct group: so what? the defining struggles of Bolivia have not been Quechua vs Aymara, have they?

Unapologetic Capitalist
6th December 2007, 05:16
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 04:49 am

Look, I've worked with the Quechua. I have friends who've been missionaries there (yes, as in Christian missionaries) for years. They consider themselves a distinct group, and they don't like the non-hill dwelling groups. This doesn't have to do with capitalism; it has to do with the fact that these groups have been fighting for years because ethnic lines make good battle lines.

well I spent half my life in Latin America, and the last 2 years in England amongst the academic elite of Britain which studies indigenous groups in Latin America, so your missionary tales don't impress me. I never met one serious social scientist who backs up your belief that "them there Indians always been fightin each other and always will, it's in their nature". I know the Quechua consider themselves a distinct group: so what? the defining struggles of Bolivia have not been Quechua vs Aymara, have they?
Does the term "Inca Empire" mean anything to you? You know, the big, Quechua run group that conquered most of western South America? I'd say war was a pretty defining part of the culture.

P.S. Do you have the counter-example I asked for?

Zurdito
6th December 2007, 05:43
[/QUOTE]

Does the term "Inca Empire" mean anything to you? You know, the big, Quechua run group that conquered most of western South America? I'd say war was a pretty defining part of the culture.

what does that prove? the celts were driven out of Britain by the romans. they're not at war today. and the Quechua today don't share the same culture of the Inca Empire, do they? They are the product of 500 years of subjugation, and it's impossible to prove any "common ancestry" anyway.


P.S. Do you have the counter-example I asked for?

ethnicity is a social construct. if people are divided into nationalities then they will be by definition be placed into conflict with each other, that's the point of nationalities, genius. however it is capitalism which is upholding the nation state and the dvision of workers, and not ethnicity which is a root cause in itself. there is no scientific basis for ethnicity.

Tatarin
6th December 2007, 07:03
1. Police brutality is not necessarily a function of racist sentiment (not that you alleged it was, I'm just stating this in the context of the thread).

But it can be used with that intent.


2. The US is a huge country. Having many examples of police brutality does not necessarily point to an unusually corrupt system; we just have more cops and more people, and therefore more potential for abuse (plus, on whole, we're still in excellent shape when compared with most of the world).

Or, it could be that the laws that you have indirectly creates unecessary criminals. It is also important to count how transparent the policeforce is. Is it normal, for example, that the police is assigned to infiltrate a demonstration? Or to allow them to plant drugs or "fish" people with drugs.

Prison is another problem you seem to have. Not long ago, a man was sentenced to 20 years behind bars just for having sex in a special way with his partner. What will he know but stories and deals during his time in prison, along with sharing cells with potentially dangerous murdurers. Is that normal too?


3. The US enjoys greater stability than many countries, in part because we have a very well-armed police force.

Then you must also enjoy a greater sence of fear. It takes very little to corrupt a whole state, because it is those at the top who can direct the actions of many. And they have the mighty police force to protect them.

Then, what will you finally do when people start realizing the call to overthrow the domestic enemy, just like your constitution demands of you? What chance do you have against the heavily armed government? Or will you join them when they establish racist laws, restrict the ownership of guns, abolish all religions but the one they pick?


Unlike much of Europe (another developed area, but one with more restricted police), we don't routinely contend with riots,

Riots happen for a reason. The media may very well portray riots as angry mobs having a lot of fun when they torch this car, or throw stones at corporate stores. Riots show that something is wrong, and that it must be corrected, or changed etc.

Take the riots in Australia in 2005. They clearly show that something with integrating immigrants there is wrong, and probably underlines the segregation there too. Or the riots in France. Is it that strange that people get mad when they are placed miles outside the city in poor neighbourhoods with a higher crime rate?


...runaway organized crime or neighborhoods in major cities that are "off-limits" to authority figures...

Which means that illegal stuff is still for sale, and someone have to distribute/produce it - may it be drugs, prostitution, weapons etc. There is also a lot of money in that business. The answer to that problem is to create socialism and build a society for all humans. More cops is not the answer.


4. The US has a history of brutality (like lynchings) in part because we have an unusually ethnically diverse country. This creates strife and abuse. Now that other areas are becoming more ethnically diverse (e.g. Europe and parts of Asia), they're experiencing the same difficulties.

Ethnicity ended centuries ago. The lynchings were going on far beyond that. What is it that takes so long for people to understand that humans are all just that, human? And if ethnicity creates strife and abuse - why did they continue with immigration?


...frequent race-centered riots in France, Denmark and the Netherlands.

So, what "race" was fighting? The "arab race" against the "white race"? Or was it for another reason?

Dros
6th December 2007, 22:41
Originally posted by marxist_god+December 05, 2007 09:26 pm--> (marxist_god @ December 05, 2007 09:26 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 08:40 pm

Unapologetic [email protected] 05, 2007 07:36 pm
Just one point: if white nationalists actually wanted to engage in vigilante action, someone would be dead by now. The fact that none of the Jena 6 have been killed and none of the protestors have been killed is a pretty clear sign that vigilante violence is not intended.
No offence or anything but, judging by your name, you should be restricted.

As for your argument: Not at all. The White Nationalists (that is outside the U.S. Gov't) have realized that when they blatantly kill people the FBI comes down on them hard. The fact that the Jena 6 are imprison on these rediculous charges and not the people who have been slinging nooses demonstrates the white nationalist tendency of the U.S. gov't and the gov't of Louisiana.

Hello, hahaha, it's ok, let the capitalists be in this forum. Remember that capitalist people are not evil, but victims of the capitalist system indoctrinating system. The upper ruling classes, and the whole capitalist system of exploitation and plunder

marxist_god [/b]
Doesn't mean he doesn't belong in OI. I didn't say ban him...

Dros
6th December 2007, 22:47
Originally posted by Unapologetic Capitalist+December 05, 2007 09:29 pm--> (Unapologetic Capitalist @ December 05, 2007 09:29 pm)
[email protected] 05, 2007 08:40 pm
No offence or anything but, judging by your name, you should be restricted.

As for your argument: Not at all. The White Nationalists (that is outside the U.S. Gov't) have realized that when they blatantly kill people the FBI comes down on them hard. The fact that the Jena 6 are imprison on these rediculous charges and not the people who have been slinging nooses demonstrates the white nationalist tendency of the U.S. gov't and the gov't of Louisiana.
No offense taken (I'm new, which I suspect is why I haven't be restricted yet).

That said, the fact that the FBI comes down hard on white nationlists when they commit murder is a sign that that government is not exactly a hub of nationalist fervor (contrast with Sudan, where Arab-nationalists do control the government, and the response to murder over there).

Furthermore, why should the government crack down on noose-slingers? Don't misunderstand me: I think it's repulsive, and in an ideal world the culprits would be punished. However, the culprits aren't actually hurting anyone. Most of the blacks in Jena weren't even very offended (several of the black teachers, for instance, were happy to write it off as a joke in bad taste). A mature person should be able to deal with it (just like police officers deal with being called "pigs"). In contrast, beating a student actually does hurt someone. [/b]
Beating a racist pig student is an act of rebellion against the racism of the system. The noose-slinging and the beating can't be taken out of context. It was thrown up over a "whites only" tree. Fist, that seems to qualify as hate speech. Secondly, the beating occured when whites tried to get the black people to leave the whites only tree! This policy was essentially endorsed by the school. Sounds like institutionalized racism to me.

Secondly, the Sudan analogy is rediculous. Firstly, the United States needs to keep up the appearence of being a progressive neoliberal, tolerant power for numerous political and economic reasons. The fact is, this government is still a white nationalist entity that systematically oppresses blacks as a nation.

Lenin II
13th December 2007, 02:57
Racism on the whole is on a rise in America, and not just against blacks. These days the oppression against those people of Arab descent and homosexuals is at an unbelievable high. This all has to do with the rising crest of xenophobia and conservativism that has taken over the nation. America has now come face-to-face with the results of the imperialist, Zionist and capitalist policies they've pursued for so long, and the population is split down the middle between those who support it and those who want to see a change for the worse. Obviously, the latter is currently in power.

There should be more posts about that Klan march, btw. We need to be out in force!

bootleg42
13th December 2007, 05:59
Originally posted by Lenin [email protected] 13, 2007 02:56 am
Racism on the whole is on a rise in America, and not just against blacks. These days the oppression against those people of Arab descent and homosexuals is at an unbelievable high. This all has to do with the rising crest of xenophobia and conservativism that has taken over the nation. America has now come face-to-face with the results of the imperialist, Zionist and capitalist policies they've pursued for so long, and the population is split down the middle between those who support it and those who want to see a change for the worse. Obviously, the latter is currently in power.

There should be more posts about that Klan march, btw. We need to be out in force!
The good thing is that the U.S. middle class has become more upset and now has more hatred with the current system. We can see this all over.

The bad thing, this is driving that same middle class more to the right, blaming the poor, undocumented workers, AND the current bourgeoisie for the way they feel.

They blame George Bush for all the chaos happening.......they then blame the undocumented workers just as much. They then blame the poor saying that we should not help them, that they were lazy and the middle class should not buy them out of their poverty (hence the belief that poor people are lazy from the U.S. white middle class).

This all leads to the racism against blacks, arabs, homosexuals, and of course my latino people here, as the U.S. white middle class YELLS to us "speak english".