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View Full Version : Rothbard and the "Homestead Principle"



Os Cangaceiros
5th December 2007, 17:41
Now, I'm not an AnCap, but I did find this interesting, partly because a lot of extreme capitalist Minarchists and AnCaps don't put a lot (or any, in fact) emphasis on worker's self management. Rothbard (who is the father of anarcho capitalism) wrote this back in the 60s, and he seems to be advocating some variation of syndicates.

Karl Hess's brilliant and challenging article in this issue raises a problem of specifics that ranges further than the libertarian movement. For example, there must be hundreds of thousands of "professional" anti-Communists in this country. Yet not one of these gentry, in the course of their fulminations, has come up with a specific plan for de-Communization. Suppose, for example, that Messers. Brezhnev and Co. become converted to the principles of a free society; they than ask our anti-Communists, all right, how do we go about de-socializing? What could our anti-Communists offer them?

This question has been essentially answered by the exciting developments of Tito's Yugoslavia. Beginning in 1952, Yugoslavia has been de-socializing at a remarkable rate. The principle the Yugoslavs have used is the libertarian "homesteading" one: the state-owned factories to the workers that work in them! The nationalized plants in the "public" sector have all been transferred in virtual ownership to the specific workers who work in the particular plants, thus making them producers' coops, and moving rapidly in the direction of individual shares of virtual ownership to the individual worker. What other practicable route toward destatization could there be? The principle in the Communist countries should be: land to the peasants and the factories to the workers, thereby getting the property out of the hands of the State and into private, homesteading hands.

The homesteading principle means that the way that unowned property gets into private ownership is by the principle that this property justly belongs to the person who finds, occupies, and transforms it by his labor. This is clear in the case of the pioneer and virgin land. But what of the case of stolen property?

Suppose, for example, that A steals B's horse. Then C comes along and takes the horse from A. Can C be called a thief? Certainly not, for we cannot call a man a criminal for stealing goods from a thief. On the contrary, C is preforming a virtuous act of confiscation, for he is depriving thief A of the fruits of his crime of aggression, and he is at least returning the horse to the innocent "private" sector and out of the "criminal" sector. C has done a noble act and should be applauded. Of course, it would be still better if he returned the horse to B, the original victim. But even if he does not, the horse is far more justly in C's hands than it is in the hands of A, the thief and criminal.

Let us now apply our libertarian theory of property to the case of property in the hands of, or derived from, the State apparatus. The libertarian sees the State as a giant gang of organized criminals, who live off the theft called "taxation" and use the proceeds to kill, enslave, and generally push people around. Therefore, any property in the hands of the State is in the hands of thieves, and should be liberated as quickly as possible. Any person or group who liberates such property, who confiscates or appropriates it from the State, is performing a virtuous act and a signal service to the cause of liberty. In the case of the State, furthermore, the victim is not readily identifiable as B, the horse-owner. All taxpayers, all draftees, all victims of the State have been mulcted. How to go about returning all this property to the taxpayers? What proportions should be used in this terrific tangle of robbery and injustice that we have all suffered at the hands of the State? Often, the most practical method of de-statizing is simply to grant the moral right of ownership on the person or group who seizes the property from the State. Of this group, the most morally deserving are the ones who are already using the property but who have no moral complicity in the State's act of aggression. These people then become the homesteaders" of the stolen property and hence the rightful owners.

Take, for example, the State universities. This is property built on funds stolen from the taxpayers. Since the State has not found or put into effect a way of returning ownership of this property to the taxpaying public, the proper owners of this university are the "homesteaders", those who have already been using and therefore "mixing their labor" with the facilities. The prime consideration is to deprive the thief, in this case the State, as quickly as possible of the ownership and control of its ill-gotten gains, to return the property to the innocent, private sector. This means student and/or faculty ownership of the universities.

As between the two groups, the students have a prior claim, for the students have been paying at least some amount to support the university whereas the faculty suffer from the moral taint of living off State funds and thereby becoming to some extent a part of the State apparatus.

The same principle applies to nominally "private" property which really comes from the State as a result of zealous lobbying on behalf of the recipient. Columbia University, for example, which receives nearly two-thirds of its income from government, is only a "private" college in the most ironic sense. It deserves a similar fate of virtuous home-steading confiscation.

But if Columbia University, what of General Dynamics? What of the myriad of corporations which are integral parts of the military-industrial complex, which not only get over half or sometimes virtually all their revenue from the government but also participate in mass murder? What are their credentials to "private" property? Surely less than zero. As eager lobbyists for these contracts and subsidies, as co-founders of the garrison state, they deserve confiscation and reversion of their property to the genuine private sector as rapidly as possible. To say that their "private" property must be respected is to say that the property stolen by the horsethief and the murdered must be "respected".

But how then do we go about destatizing the entire mass of government property, as well as the "private property" of General Dynamics? All this needs detailed thought and inquiry on the part of libertarians. One method would be to turn over ownership to the homesteading workers in the particular plants; another to turn over pro-rata ownership to the individual taxpayers. But we must face the fact that it might prove the most practical route to first nationalize the property as a prelude to redistribution. Thus, how could the ownership of General Dynamics be transferred to the deserving taxpayers without first being nationalized enroute? And, further more, even if the government should decide to nationalize General Dynamics--without compensation, of course-- per se and not as a prelude to redistribution to the taxpayers, this is not immoral or something to be combatted. For it would only mean that one gang of thieves--the government--would be confiscating property from another previously cooperating gang, the corporation that has lived off the government. I do not often agree with John Kenneth Galbraith, but his recent suggestion to nationalize businesses which get more than 75% of their revenue from government, or from the military, has considerable merit. Certainly it does not mean aggression against private property, and, furthermore, we could expect a considerable diminution of zeal from the military-industrial complex if much of the profits were taken out of war and plunder. And besides, it would make the American military machine less efficient, being governmental, and that is surely all to the good. But why stop at 75%? Fifty per cent seems to be a reasonable cutoff point on whether an organization is largely public or largely private.

And there is another consideration. Dow Chemical, for example, has been heavily criticized for making napalm for the U.S. military machine. The percentage of its sales coming from napalm is undoubtedly small, so that on a percentage basis the company may not seem very guilty; but napalm is and can only be an instrument of mass murder, and therefore Dow Chemical is heavily up to its neck in being an accessory and hence a co-partner in the mass murder in Vietnam. No percentage of sales, however small, can absolve its guilt.

This brings us to Karl's point about slaves. One of the tragic aspects of the emancipation of the serfs in Russia in 1861 was that while the serfs gained their personal freedom, the land--their means of production and of life, their land was retained under the ownership of their feudal masters. The land should have gone to the serfs themselves, for under the homestead principle they had tilled the land and deserved its title. Furthermore, the serfs were entitled to a host of reparations from their masters for the centuries of oppression and exploitation. The fact that the land remained in the hands of the lords paved the way inexorably for the Bolshevik Revolution, since the revolution that had freed the serfs remained unfinished.

The same is true of the abolition of slavery in the United States. The slaves gained their freedom, it is true, but the land, the plantations that they had tilled and therefore deserved to own under the homestead principle, remained in the hands of their former masters. Furthermore, no reparations were granted the slaves for their oppression out of the hides of their masters. Hence the abolition of slavery remained unfinished, and the seeds of a new revolt have remained to intensify to the present day. Hence, the great importance of the shift in Negro demands from greater welfare handouts to "reparations", reparationsfor the years of slavery and exploitation and for the failure to grant the Negroes their land, the failure to heed the Radical abolitionist's call for "40 acres and a mule" to the former slaves. In many cases, moreover, the old plantations and the heirs and descendants of the former slaves can be identified, and the reparations can become highly specific indeed.

Alan Milchman, in the days when he was a brilliant young libertarian activist, first pointed out that libertarians had misled themselves by making their main dichotomy "government" vs. "private" with the former bad and the latter good. Government, he pointed out, is after all not a mystical entity but a group of individuals, "private" individuals if you will, acting in the manner of an organized criminal gang. But this means that there may also be "private" criminals as well as people directly affiliated with the government. What we libertarians object to, then, is not government per se but crime, what we object to is unjust or criminal property titles; what we are for is not "private" property per se but just, innocent, non-criminal private property. It is justice vs. injustice, innocence vs. criminality that must be our major libertarian focus.

link (http://williamgillis.blogspot.com/2007/11/all-power-to-soviets-following-is.html)

Thoughts?

pusher robot
5th December 2007, 18:15
Interesting ideas indeed. I find a lot to agree with, but I think that this is a step too far:

What of the myriad of corporations which are integral parts of the military-industrial complex, which not only get over half or sometimes virtually all their revenue from the government but also participate in mass murder?

The moral culpability in the confiscation is less, though I agree some exists. In our horse analogy, suppose that C is a horse dealer that regularly buys horses from B. How morally culpable is C in B's thievery? Assuming (to make the analogy work) that C is well aware of how B obtains his horses, I think we would agree that C has some moral culpability, though not as great as that of B, because C is enabling B's behavior.

But culpability for mass murder is too far. Suppose in the above scenario, C buys one of B's horses and uses it to commit a murder. Is B thus culpable for murder? I doubt few would agree to that. It is a common libertarian principle that one person can not be held culpable for the independent intervening acts of another.

Os Cangaceiros
5th December 2007, 18:21
Originally posted by pusher [email protected] 05, 2007 06:14 pm
Interesting ideas indeed. I find a lot to agree with, but I think that this is a step too far:

What of the myriad of corporations which are integral parts of the military-industrial complex, which not only get over half or sometimes virtually all their revenue from the government but also participate in mass murder?

The moral culpability in the confiscation is less, though I agree some exists. In our horse analogy, suppose that C is a horse dealer that regularly buys horses from B. How morally culpable is C in B's thievery? Assuming (to make the analogy work) that C is well aware of how B obtains his horses, I think we would agree that C has some moral culpability, though not as great as that of B, because C is enabling B's behavior.

But culpability for mass murder is too far. Suppose in the above scenario, C buys one of B's horses and uses it to commit a murder. Is B thus culpable for murder? I doubt few would agree to that. It is a common libertarian principle that one person can not be held culpable for the independent intervening acts of another.
I think that's true. I do think though that if B sells a horse to C and knows that that particular horse will be used to commit a murder, then B definitely shares some blame, although less blame than C.

pusher robot
5th December 2007, 19:00
I think that's true. I do think though that if B sells a horse to C and knows that that particular horse will be used to commit a murder, then B definitely shares some blame, although less blame than C.

Yes, I agree. B is not a murderer but to the extent B enables C, B does have some culpability. So I think it would be fair to say that defense contractors should not necessarily sleep easily, but I don't think they can be justifiably be called "mass murders."

The whole analogy is suspect for another reason: the purpose of homesteading, according to the article, is redistributing improperly confiscated property in a fair way. But the defense contractors were never improperly confiscated; the wealth that went into the defense contractor was generated by the defense contractor's ability to create value in excess of the costs the state was willing to endure. I could see a stronger case for homesteading the weapons themselves, which are the direct fruits of the confiscated wealth, than the defense contractors, whose wealth is accrued from the surplus value they themselves generated. Alternatively, you could argue that the defense contractors themselves homesteaded that confiscated wealth through the input of their work to minimize the costs.

synthesis
5th December 2007, 20:35
It never said they were actually mass murderers themselves. It said they participated in mass murder, for example, through arming military dictatorships against communist revolution.

I have a question for you capitalists. What do you think of the concept of "odious debt"?

Os Cangaceiros
6th December 2007, 22:07
Originally posted by STJ+December 06, 2007 09:16 pm--> (STJ @ December 06, 2007 09:16 pm)
[email protected] 05, 2007 05:40 pm
Now, I'm not an AnCap, but I did find this interesting, partly because a lot of extreme capitalist Minarchists and AnCaps don't put a lot (or any, in fact) emphasis on worker's self management. Rothbard (who is the father of anarcho capitalism) wrote this back in the 60s, and he seems to be advocating some variation of syndicates.

Karl Hess's brilliant and challenging article in this issue raises a problem of specifics that ranges further than the libertarian movement. For example, there must be hundreds of thousands of "professional" anti-Communists in this country. Yet not one of these gentry, in the course of their fulminations, has come up with a specific plan for de-Communization. Suppose, for example, that Messers. Brezhnev and Co. become converted to the principles of a free society; they than ask our anti-Communists, all right, how do we go about de-socializing? What could our anti-Communists offer them?

This question has been essentially answered by the exciting developments of Tito's Yugoslavia. Beginning in 1952, Yugoslavia has been de-socializing at a remarkable rate. The principle the Yugoslavs have used is the libertarian "homesteading" one: the state-owned factories to the workers that work in them! The nationalized plants in the "public" sector have all been transferred in virtual ownership to the specific workers who work in the particular plants, thus making them producers' coops, and moving rapidly in the direction of individual shares of virtual ownership to the individual worker. What other practicable route toward destatization could there be? The principle in the Communist countries should be: land to the peasants and the factories to the workers, thereby getting the property out of the hands of the State and into private, homesteading hands.

The homesteading principle means that the way that unowned property gets into private ownership is by the principle that this property justly belongs to the person who finds, occupies, and transforms it by his labor. This is clear in the case of the pioneer and virgin land. But what of the case of stolen property?

Suppose, for example, that A steals B's horse. Then C comes along and takes the horse from A. Can C be called a thief? Certainly not, for we cannot call a man a criminal for stealing goods from a thief. On the contrary, C is preforming a virtuous act of confiscation, for he is depriving thief A of the fruits of his crime of aggression, and he is at least returning the horse to the innocent "private" sector and out of the "criminal" sector. C has done a noble act and should be applauded. Of course, it would be still better if he returned the horse to B, the original victim. But even if he does not, the horse is far more justly in C's hands than it is in the hands of A, the thief and criminal.

Let us now apply our libertarian theory of property to the case of property in the hands of, or derived from, the State apparatus. The libertarian sees the State as a giant gang of organized criminals, who live off the theft called "taxation" and use the proceeds to kill, enslave, and generally push people around. Therefore, any property in the hands of the State is in the hands of thieves, and should be liberated as quickly as possible. Any person or group who liberates such property, who confiscates or appropriates it from the State, is performing a virtuous act and a signal service to the cause of liberty. In the case of the State, furthermore, the victim is not readily identifiable as B, the horse-owner. All taxpayers, all draftees, all victims of the State have been mulcted. How to go about returning all this property to the taxpayers? What proportions should be used in this terrific tangle of robbery and injustice that we have all suffered at the hands of the State? Often, the most practical method of de-statizing is simply to grant the moral right of ownership on the person or group who seizes the property from the State. Of this group, the most morally deserving are the ones who are already using the property but who have no moral complicity in the State's act of aggression. These people then become the homesteaders" of the stolen property and hence the rightful owners.

Take, for example, the State universities. This is property built on funds stolen from the taxpayers. Since the State has not found or put into effect a way of returning ownership of this property to the taxpaying public, the proper owners of this university are the "homesteaders", those who have already been using and therefore "mixing their labor" with the facilities. The prime consideration is to deprive the thief, in this case the State, as quickly as possible of the ownership and control of its ill-gotten gains, to return the property to the innocent, private sector. This means student and/or faculty ownership of the universities.

As between the two groups, the students have a prior claim, for the students have been paying at least some amount to support the university whereas the faculty suffer from the moral taint of living off State funds and thereby becoming to some extent a part of the State apparatus.

The same principle applies to nominally "private" property which really comes from the State as a result of zealous lobbying on behalf of the recipient. Columbia University, for example, which receives nearly two-thirds of its income from government, is only a "private" college in the most ironic sense. It deserves a similar fate of virtuous home-steading confiscation.

But if Columbia University, what of General Dynamics? What of the myriad of corporations which are integral parts of the military-industrial complex, which not only get over half or sometimes virtually all their revenue from the government but also participate in mass murder? What are their credentials to "private" property? Surely less than zero. As eager lobbyists for these contracts and subsidies, as co-founders of the garrison state, they deserve confiscation and reversion of their property to the genuine private sector as rapidly as possible. To say that their "private" property must be respected is to say that the property stolen by the horsethief and the murdered must be "respected".

But how then do we go about destatizing the entire mass of government property, as well as the "private property" of General Dynamics? All this needs detailed thought and inquiry on the part of libertarians. One method would be to turn over ownership to the homesteading workers in the particular plants; another to turn over pro-rata ownership to the individual taxpayers. But we must face the fact that it might prove the most practical route to first nationalize the property as a prelude to redistribution. Thus, how could the ownership of General Dynamics be transferred to the deserving taxpayers without first being nationalized enroute? And, further more, even if the government should decide to nationalize General Dynamics--without compensation, of course-- per se and not as a prelude to redistribution to the taxpayers, this is not immoral or something to be combatted. For it would only mean that one gang of thieves--the government--would be confiscating property from another previously cooperating gang, the corporation that has lived off the government. I do not often agree with John Kenneth Galbraith, but his recent suggestion to nationalize businesses which get more than 75% of their revenue from government, or from the military, has considerable merit. Certainly it does not mean aggression against private property, and, furthermore, we could expect a considerable diminution of zeal from the military-industrial complex if much of the profits were taken out of war and plunder. And besides, it would make the American military machine less efficient, being governmental, and that is surely all to the good. But why stop at 75%? Fifty per cent seems to be a reasonable cutoff point on whether an organization is largely public or largely private.

And there is another consideration. Dow Chemical, for example, has been heavily criticized for making napalm for the U.S. military machine. The percentage of its sales coming from napalm is undoubtedly small, so that on a percentage basis the company may not seem very guilty; but napalm is and can only be an instrument of mass murder, and therefore Dow Chemical is heavily up to its neck in being an accessory and hence a co-partner in the mass murder in Vietnam. No percentage of sales, however small, can absolve its guilt.

This brings us to Karl's point about slaves. One of the tragic aspects of the emancipation of the serfs in Russia in 1861 was that while the serfs gained their personal freedom, the land--their means of production and of life, their land was retained under the ownership of their feudal masters. The land should have gone to the serfs themselves, for under the homestead principle they had tilled the land and deserved its title. Furthermore, the serfs were entitled to a host of reparations from their masters for the centuries of oppression and exploitation. The fact that the land remained in the hands of the lords paved the way inexorably for the Bolshevik Revolution, since the revolution that had freed the serfs remained unfinished.

The same is true of the abolition of slavery in the United States. The slaves gained their freedom, it is true, but the land, the plantations that they had tilled and therefore deserved to own under the homestead principle, remained in the hands of their former masters. Furthermore, no reparations were granted the slaves for their oppression out of the hides of their masters. Hence the abolition of slavery remained unfinished, and the seeds of a new revolt have remained to intensify to the present day. Hence, the great importance of the shift in Negro demands from greater welfare handouts to "reparations", reparationsfor the years of slavery and exploitation and for the failure to grant the Negroes their land, the failure to heed the Radical abolitionist's call for "40 acres and a mule" to the former slaves. In many cases, moreover, the old plantations and the heirs and descendants of the former slaves can be identified, and the reparations can become highly specific indeed.

Alan Milchman, in the days when he was a brilliant young libertarian activist, first pointed out that libertarians had misled themselves by making their main dichotomy "government" vs. "private" with the former bad and the latter good. Government, he pointed out, is after all not a mystical entity but a group of individuals, "private" individuals if you will, acting in the manner of an organized criminal gang. But this means that there may also be "private" criminals as well as people directly affiliated with the government. What we libertarians object to, then, is not government per se but crime, what we object to is unjust or criminal property titles; what we are for is not "private" property per se but just, innocent, non-criminal private property. It is justice vs. injustice, innocence vs. criminality that must be our major libertarian focus.

link (http://williamgillis.blogspot.com/2007/11/all-power-to-soviets-following-is.html)

Thoughts?
Yawn. [/b]
Compelling.

NorthStarRepublicML
6th December 2007, 23:57
Compelling.

indeed, thats about as clever as you can expect from STJ ... although its hard to be clever when he never posts more then a single line of text .. speaking of which is against the guidelines ...



odious debt

well frequently during revolutions which succeeded in overthrowing a totalitarian or despotic system there have been various responses to this ... Lenin called for a renegotiation of many treaties following the Bolshevik revolution ... but Castro did pay off many of the people whose property he nationalized ....

in the case of empires this would almost be a non-issue as an empire by definition is the personal posession of the soverign ruler to do with as he sees fit .. any debt he may incur during his rule (in my opinon) should not be passed onto any elected government that may follow him ...

however many countries did suffer from this (often because they had no choice) .. Wiemar Germany incurred a massive war debt and was subject to reparations following WWI and they were a republic not the empire that waged the war in the first place ...

as far as i am concerned if the person whom you made the deal with has passed from government or the government itself has changed this warrants a renegotiation of all previously existing contracts and agreements with foreign states. ..

as far as the collective ownership of factories, farms, and universities goes ...



Thoughts?

i like the idea, i think Yugoslavia under Tito had some good things going for in terms of worker management ...

but i personally believe that strong state owned industries are necessary to preserve these worker owned institutions and thus while i would support worker management i also believe that the state must have sole control over necessary infrastructure such as electricity, highways, a federal army, natural resources, and other industries tied to defense.

so while i would support some industries owned and operated by workers i wouldn't support that across the board for all economic activities ... as an example entertainment and automobile manufacturing would be run by worker collectives while artillery production and power plants would be operated by the state ...

additionally because i am a communist i believe that social and community programs must be publicly funded, it is not thievery it is what it is: A TAX .. it is the price that we pay to ensure that children are properly educated, our roads are well maintained, and our security is provided (at least in terms of external threats) ...

i like some libertarian ideas but there is a point when they have to realize that we are all in this together .... taxes if administered properly help to ensure that we all have the ability to achieve

Os Cangaceiros
7th December 2007, 23:37
Originally posted by STJ+December 07, 2007 01:37 am--> (STJ @ December 07, 2007 01:37 am)
[email protected] 06, 2007 11:56 pm

Compelling.

indeed, thats about as clever as you can expect from STJ ... although its hard to be clever when he never posts more then a single line of text .. speaking of which is against the guidelines ...



odious debt

well frequently during revolutions which succeeded in overthrowing a totalitarian or despotic system there have been various responses to this ... Lenin called for a renegotiation of many treaties following the Bolshevik revolution ... but Castro did pay off many of the people whose property he nationalized ....

in the case of empires this would almost be a non-issue as an empire by definition is the personal posession of the soverign ruler to do with as he sees fit .. any debt he may incur during his rule (in my opinon) should not be passed onto any elected government that may follow him ...

however many countries did suffer from this (often because they had no choice) .. Wiemar Germany incurred a massive war debt and was subject to reparations following WWI and they were a republic not the empire that waged the war in the first place ...

as far as i am concerned if the person whom you made the deal with has passed from government or the government itself has changed this warrants a renegotiation of all previously existing contracts and agreements with foreign states. ..

as far as the collective ownership of factories, farms, and universities goes ...



Thoughts?

i like the idea, i think Yugoslavia under Tito had some good things going for in terms of worker management ...

but i personally believe that strong state owned industries are necessary to preserve these worker owned institutions and thus while i would support worker management i also believe that the state must have sole control over necessary infrastructure such as electricity, highways, a federal army, natural resources, and other industries tied to defense.

so while i would support some industries owned and operated by workers i wouldn't support that across the board for all economic activities ... as an example entertainment and automobile manufacturing would be run by worker collectives while artillery production and power plants would be operated by the state ...

additionally because i am a communist i believe that social and community programs must be publicly funded, it is not thievery it is what it is: A TAX .. it is the price that we pay to ensure that children are properly educated, our roads are well maintained, and our security is provided (at least in terms of external threats) ...

i like some libertarian ideas but there is a point when they have to realize that we are all in this together .... taxes if administered properly help to ensure that we all have the ability to achieve
I swear to god you are mentally ill. You are never going get over being restricted. And because of that your never getting out of the OI.

Throw yourself under a bus!!!!!!!!! [/b]
Your intellect is breathtaking. Are you a Rhodes Scholar, per chance?

Robert
8th December 2007, 00:31
your never getting out of the OI.

Who would want to?

Os Cangaceiros
8th December 2007, 00:38
Originally posted by Robert the [email protected] 08, 2007 12:30 am

your never getting out of the OI.

Who would want to?
Tell me about it. OI is where it's at.

spartan
8th December 2007, 00:40
Tell me about it. OI is where it's at.
OI does seem to be the place where most of the serious discussion is on revleft.

Os Cangaceiros
8th December 2007, 02:11
Originally posted by STJ+December 08, 2007 01:50 am--> (STJ @ December 08, 2007 01:50 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 12:37 am

Robert the [email protected] 08, 2007 12:30 am

your never getting out of the OI.

Who would want to?
Tell me about it. OI is where it's at.
hahaha Your posting in it. My god a cappie with a sense of humor. :blink: [/b]
1) I'm not a cappie.
2) I don't have a sense of humor.
3) I'm ashamed that you and I have the same taste in music.

Os Cangaceiros
8th December 2007, 02:13
Originally posted by STJ+December 08, 2007 01:42 am--> (STJ @ December 08, 2007 01:42 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 11:36 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 01:37 am

[email protected] 06, 2007 11:56 pm

Compelling.

indeed, thats about as clever as you can expect from STJ ... although its hard to be clever when he never posts more then a single line of text .. speaking of which is against the guidelines ...



odious debt

well frequently during revolutions which succeeded in overthrowing a totalitarian or despotic system there have been various responses to this ... Lenin called for a renegotiation of many treaties following the Bolshevik revolution ... but Castro did pay off many of the people whose property he nationalized ....

in the case of empires this would almost be a non-issue as an empire by definition is the personal posession of the soverign ruler to do with as he sees fit .. any debt he may incur during his rule (in my opinon) should not be passed onto any elected government that may follow him ...

however many countries did suffer from this (often because they had no choice) .. Wiemar Germany incurred a massive war debt and was subject to reparations following WWI and they were a republic not the empire that waged the war in the first place ...

as far as i am concerned if the person whom you made the deal with has passed from government or the government itself has changed this warrants a renegotiation of all previously existing contracts and agreements with foreign states. ..

as far as the collective ownership of factories, farms, and universities goes ...



Thoughts?

i like the idea, i think Yugoslavia under Tito had some good things going for in terms of worker management ...

but i personally believe that strong state owned industries are necessary to preserve these worker owned institutions and thus while i would support worker management i also believe that the state must have sole control over necessary infrastructure such as electricity, highways, a federal army, natural resources, and other industries tied to defense.

so while i would support some industries owned and operated by workers i wouldn't support that across the board for all economic activities ... as an example entertainment and automobile manufacturing would be run by worker collectives while artillery production and power plants would be operated by the state ...

additionally because i am a communist i believe that social and community programs must be publicly funded, it is not thievery it is what it is: A TAX .. it is the price that we pay to ensure that children are properly educated, our roads are well maintained, and our security is provided (at least in terms of external threats) ...

i like some libertarian ideas but there is a point when they have to realize that we are all in this together .... taxes if administered properly help to ensure that we all have the ability to achieve
I swear to god you are mentally ill. You are never going get over being restricted. And because of that your never getting out of the OI.

Throw yourself under a bus!!!!!!!!!
Your intellect is breathtaking. Are you a Rhodes Scholar, per chance?
Yes i am. I went to Miller state university. [/b]
I just keep setting them up and you just keep on knockin' them down!

Os Cangaceiros
10th December 2007, 01:07
Originally posted by STJ+December 10, 2007 12:58 am--> (STJ @ December 10, 2007 12:58 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 02:10 am

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 01:50 am

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 12:37 am

Robert the [email protected] 08, 2007 12:30 am

your never getting out of the OI.

Who would want to?
Tell me about it. OI is where it's at.
hahaha Your posting in it. My god a cappie with a sense of humor. :blink:
1) I'm not a cappie.
2) I don't have a sense of humor.
3) I'm ashamed that you and I have the same taste in music.
1. That explains the sense of humor.
2. Yes you do.
3. A punk rock fan? [/b]
My favorite bands: DKs, Black Flag, early Vandals, the Damned, Subhumans, the Circle Jerks and a bunch of others.

And yeah, the Samoans too.

Os Cangaceiros
10th December 2007, 01:25
Originally posted by STJ+December 10, 2007 01:14 am--> (STJ @ December 10, 2007 01:14 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 01:06 am

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 12:58 am

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 02:10 am

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 01:50 am

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 12:37 am

Robert the [email protected] 08, 2007 12:30 am

your never getting out of the OI.

Who would want to?
Tell me about it. OI is where it's at.
hahaha Your posting in it. My god a cappie with a sense of humor. :blink:
1) I'm not a cappie.
2) I don't have a sense of humor.
3) I'm ashamed that you and I have the same taste in music.
1. That explains the sense of humor.
2. Yes you do.
3. A punk rock fan?
My favorite bands: DKs, Black Flag, early Vandals, the Damned, Subhumans, the Circle Jerks and a bunch of others.

And yeah, the Samoans too.
All great bands!! Do you like early clash?

Why are you stuck in cappie land? [/b]
Yep. "The Clash", "Damned Damned Damned", and "Inflammable Material"...I consider those to pretty much be the pinnacle of early UK punk.

I'm not really crazy about the Sex Pistols.

apathy maybe
10th December 2007, 07:42
Wonderful thought this conversation is, it doesn't really address the question at hand.

Anyway,


The homesteading principle means that the way that unowned property gets into private ownership is by the principle that this property justly belongs to the person who finds, occupies, and transforms it by his labor. This is clear in the case of the pioneer and virgin land. But what of the case of stolen property?
Of course, the there are a number of troubles with this idea. The first is that, what does it mean by "finds, occupies, and transforms"? After all, if you look at
Which brings me to my next point,

What we libertarians object to, then, is not government per se but crime, what we object to is unjust or criminal property titles; what we are for is not "private" property per se but just, innocent, non-criminal private property. It is justice vs. injustice, innocence vs. criminality that must be our major libertarian focus.And if you are a libertarian, then you have no way of bringing about your "free just society". Because the history of the world is the history of injustice, and "criminality" (though often not by the laws of the imperialist nations perpetuating much of the criminality). Take the the history of the USA for a specific case, a constant betrayal of treaties, genocide etc. (And a similar thing happened in Australia, except without the treaties.)

How do you get from this injustice, this situation of continued crime to a so called free system? You can't. Well, Nozick (a minimalist statist) said that you could perhaps use Rawls' distribution thingy. But how would you do that? I would suggest that it would require a rather large state ... One which wouldn't then just go away.

Anyway, enjoy.

Os Cangaceiros
10th December 2007, 13:28
Wonderful thought this conversation is, it doesn't really address the question at hand.

Heh, it did drift a bit into chit chat, didn't it.


Of course, the there are a number of troubles with this idea. The first is that, what does it mean by "finds, occupies, and transforms"? After all, if you look at
Which brings me to my next point,

I don't know, perhaps the same thing Proudhon meant when he talked about utilizing labour to make property "legitimate"?


And if you are a libertarian, then you have no way of bringing about your "free just society". Because the history of the world is the history of injustice, and "criminality" (though often not by the laws of the imperialist nations perpetuating much of the criminality). Take the the history of the USA for a specific case, a constant betrayal of treaties, genocide etc. (And a similar thing happened in Australia, except without the treaties.)

How do you get from this injustice, this situation of continued crime to a so called free system? You can't. Well, Nozick (a minimalist statist) said that you could perhaps use Rawls' distribution thingy. But how would you do that? I would suggest that it would require a rather large state ... One which wouldn't then just go away.

Since I'm familiar with some of Rothbard's writings, I can tell you his way to bring about a "free" society would be to eliminate the state and turn literally everything into private property. Would this necessarily be just? I don't think it would be. The thing about this that interested me about this piece was that it seemed to be a deviation from Rothbard's future writings, in which he usually played the role of crass "vulgar libertarian".