Greek Cynicism

[jacobin1949]

Does anyone have opinions on Cynicism? It has a bad rep the same way "materialism" does but in fact represented a progressive ideology during slave society. They were the first to see the value in labor and cosmopolitanism. And mocked the norms of society and demanded virtue above all. They mocked all of the Gods calling them the "big thieves" and the politicians the "little thieves". Marx's first thesis was about the founder of their school.

As for their ideal of the "ideal man" I think that the lives of Marx, Lenin or Mao are totally in line with the cynic idea, not to mention the thousands of unnamed revolutionaries.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/c/cynics.htm

3. Cynic Ethics

Foremost for understanding the Cynic conception of ethics is that virtue is a life lived in accord with nature. Nature offers the clearest indication of how to live the good life, which is characterized by reason, self-sufficiency, and freedom. Social conventions, however, can hinder the good life by compromising freedom and setting up a code of conduct that is opposed to nature and reason. Conventions are not inherently bad; however, for the Cynic, conventions are often absurd and worthy of ridicule. The Cynics deride the attention paid to the Olympics, the “big thieves” who run the temples and are seen carrying away the “little thieves” who steal from them, politicians as well as the philosophers who attend their courts, fashion, and prayers for such things as fame and fortune.

Only once one has freed oneself from the strictures that impede an ethical life can one be said to be truly free. As such, the Cynics advocate askēsis, or practice, over theory as the means to free oneself from convention, promote self-sufficiency, and live in accord with nature. Such askēsis leads the Cynic to live in poverty, embrace hardship and toil, and permits the Cynic to speak freely about the silly, and often vicious, way life is lived by his or her contemporaries. The Cynics consistently undermine the most hallowed principles of Athenian culture, but they do so for the sake of replacing them with those in accord with reason, nature, and virtue.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

J:


I think that the lives of ... or Mao are totally in line with the cynic idea....

Does that mean the Cynics belonged to a clique that murdered millions of civilians? :o

[black magick hustla]

they are certainly better han fucking plato

o god i had to endure one semester of that shit

[jacobin1949]

Whats so bad about Socrates?

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 07:20 pm
Whats so bad about Socrates?
i dont know about socrates but i know that plato was one of the worst apologists of ruling class idealism.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

And they both thought to world of Parmenides, who was even worse.

[jacobin1949]

In the 1950s the British Communist Party published a book defending Plato against Popper's attacks.

[gilhyle]

Yeah well Plato might have been backward looking, but Athenian 'democracy' was hardly progressive - it was the Roman Empire that was progressive.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

J:


In the 1950s the British Communist Party published a book defending Plato against Popper's attacks.

Not so. CP theorist and CC member, Maurice Cornforth, wrote a rather poor and entirely forgettable book called 'The Open Philosophy and the Open Society', which did not defend Plato, it just attacked Popper's egregious assault on dialectical materialism, etc.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Gil, the Romans modelled their system on Athens. :blink:

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 09:22 pm
Yeah well Plato might have been backward looking, but Athenian 'democracy' was hardly progressive - it was the Roman Empire that was progressive.
The thing is that Plato hated the athenian democracy not because it was "unprogressive", but because it was made of the "ignorant rabble" that are more concerned with the physical world than his "world of forms".

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Correct, and since then, traditional philosophy has been super-glued to ruling-class thought.

[gilhyle]

Originally posted by Rosa [email protected] 05, 2007 10:02 pm
Gil, the Romans modelled their system on Athens. :blink:
Not really, the Romans despised the Greeks as wimps and the militarism and margiinalisation of democratic forms that the Romans finally adopted was progressive in that it was the basis of the spread of roman power, breaking down the petty city dictatorships that held back production - and my point in any case is that admiring ancient societies or philosophies because of characteristics that are formally analogous to to characteristics of modern society that are now progressive is a pretty miserable form of argument.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Well, that is a rather jaundiced view of history, and cannot account for the rise of Roman power based on the Republic (which was modelled on Athens). And even during the reign of the Caesars, democratic forms of government were still preserved.

And, precisely which Romans regarded the Greeks as 'wimps'?

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by Rosa [email protected] 05, 2007 10:02 pm
Gil, the Romans modelled their system on Athens. :blink:
No, they didn't. There never was a true land reform in Rome, and the conflict between patres and plebeians was never resolved in favour of the plebs, as it was in Athens. Athens was a city State that expanded by a system of alliances with client States (usually revolutionising them in the process, by deposing the oligarchic regimes at that cities). Rome grew as an empire, submitting its provinces by force, and ruling them politically. Roman society was always divided in numerous different status layers, with different legal privileges and duties, while the Athenians were quite egalitarian, except for the non-citizens (slaves and foreigner residents).

The constitution of Rome was quite different from that of Athens, with no true equivalent for the Athenian Assembly, no equal rights to offices, no equal voting privileges, etc. Conversely, the Roman Senate, which was not an elective body, had no comparable institution in Athens.

Of course there are some similarities between both, but to claim that the Romans modelled their system in Athens is more or less tantamount to say that the Soviet Union modelled its system in the United States.

Luís Henrique

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Thank you for those correction LH, but I merely asserted the Romans modelled their system on Athens, I did not go into the extent of that modelling.

You only have to read the Roman jurists, for example, to see the extent of their debt to Greek political theorists.

More details in this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Romes-Greece-Bristol...s/dp/1853996300 (http://www.amazon.com/Romes-Greece-Bristol-Classical-Paperbacks/dp/1853996300)

And here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=jrVW9W9ei...TulZY#PPA150,M1 (http://books.google.com/books?id=jrVW9W9eiYMC&pg=PA150&lpg=PA150&dq=roman+debt+to+greece&source=web&ots=NxJwtwM_Ky&sig=Up5R5DcA8ZanjIzU8I2SKKTulZY#PPA150,M1)

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by Rosa [email protected] 20, 2007 07:40 pm
Thank you for those correction LH, but I merely asserted the Romans modelled their system on Athens, I did not go into the extent of that modelling.

You only have to read the Roman jurists, for example, to see the extent of their debt to Greek political theorists.

More details in this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Romes-Greece-Bristol...s/dp/1853996300 (http://www.amazon.com/Romes-Greece-Bristol-Classical-Paperbacks/dp/1853996300)

And here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=jrVW9W9ei...TulZY#PPA150,M1 (http://books.google.com/books?id=jrVW9W9eiYMC&pg=PA150&lpg=PA150&dq=roman+debt+to+greece&source=web&ots=NxJwtwM_Ky&sig=Up5R5DcA8ZanjIzU8I2SKKTulZY#PPA150,M1)
Those links give no support to your position.

They explain how Romans liked to emulate Greeks, which is a far shot from "modelling" their political system on Greece.

Luís Henrique

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by Rosa [email protected] 11, 2007 12:28 am

And, precisely which Romans regarded the Greeks as 'wimps'?
Well there was a sort of prejudice in Roman society that Romans were more "Macho" than Greeks. ("You might have your philosophers and poets but we beat you and conquered you" kind of attitude). Roman attitudes to Greek intellectuals were very complicated. They liked Greek philosophy, poetry, music etc and the priviledged classes went far out of their way to get Greek slaves and learn Greek themselves. But there was very much a searing attitude that Romans were tougher.

[gilhyle]

Indeed, and the net point is that the supposed egalitarianism of Athenian society did not make it progressive by comparison with Roman Society.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

LH, fortunately, I left my descriptors suitable vague, and those sources support that.

Wiki sums this up neatly:


Greek influence on Rome

It is likely that the Romans first came in contact with Greek civilization through the Greek city-states in southern Italy and in Sicily (both of which formed Magna Graecia — "Greater Greece"). These colonies had been established as a result of Greek expansion that took place in these two areas beginning in the eighth century BC. There is a remarkable commonality between the world of classical Athens and the classical world of Magna Graecia. As proof of this, one need look no further than the Greek temples in Akragas and Silinus in Sicily and the Parthenon of Athens to see that they partake of the same style of architecture at virtually the same level of architectural refinement. Thucydides documents the substantial political and military contacts that the Greek city-states of Sicily had with Sparta and Athens during the Peloponnesian War, and how the Syracusans allied with Sparta were able to defeat the military forces of Athens as they laid siege to Syracuse.

This, inasmuch as trading, as well as the mere day to day interaction between peoples of different cultures, provided opportunities for the Romans to gain exposure to Greek culture, literature, architecture, political and philosophical ideas, religious beliefs and traditions. There was a great sharing of ideas and culture among the peoples of the Mediterranean Sea while Rome was developing into the dominant power in the area.

The Latin alphabet was certainly influenced by the Greek alphabet, and the Latin language itself contains many words of Greek origin. Latin literature was also influenced by the Greeks as well. Early Latin plays were sometimes translations of Greek plays, and different types of poetry often were modeled after their counterparts, such as Virgil's Aeneid on the Homeric Epics. It was not uncommon for wealthy Romans to send their sons to Greece for the purpose of study, most notably in Athens. This Roman passion of Hellenic culture would increase over time.

Greek and Latin became the lingua franca of the eastern half of the Mediterranean area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Republi...Republican_Rome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Republic#The_structure_of_Republican_Rome)


Hellenism's greatest prize in Italy was Rome

Horace, Epist. II, I, Lines 156-7

Quoted from here:

http://members.tripod.com/~Kekrops/Helleni...ct_On_Rome.html (http://members.tripod.com/~Kekrops/Hellenistic_Files/Impact_On_Rome.html)

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Gil:


Indeed, and the net point is that the supposed egalitarianism of Athenian society did not make it progressive by comparison with Roman Society.

'Progressive' in comparison to what?

To the corrupt and autocratic Caesars?

To, the Kings that ruled ancient Greece/Rome?

[Come to think of it, it is rather odd to see a dialectician think in terms of rigid categories, in terms of "either-or"... :rolleyes: ]

[Luís Henrique]

To put it in a simple way, the political system of Rome was not in any way "modelled" on Athens.

Intellectual influences, in philosophy, art, literature, religion, etc, yes. "Modelling", no.

Luís Henrique

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

LH:


Intellectual influences, in philosophy, art, literature, religion, etc, yes. "Modelling", no.

Again, it depends on what you mean by 'modelling'.

[Jaden]

Originally posted by Marmot+December 05, 2007 04:46 pm--> (Marmot @ December 05, 2007 04:46 pm)
[email protected] 05, 2007 09:22 pm
Yeah well Plato might have been backward looking, but Athenian 'democracy' was hardly progressive - it was the Roman Empire that was progressive.
The thing is that Plato hated the athenian democracy not because it was "unprogressive", but because it was made of the "ignorant rabble" that are more concerned with the physical world than his "world of forms". [/b]
He was the one who put forth the idea that an intellectual few should rule the society, wasn't he? Perhaps I am generalizing my recollections of my own semester of philosophy (the professor was hell-bent on moral perfectionism, he would not discuss anything else!)