Che, the real story.

[Titan]

I've recently been doing alot of research on Che guevara, and I find myself admiring his beliefs and qualities. But I came across a video on youtube called 'Che guevara the real story' It's a attack on Che and more generaly Cuba, by (what looks like typical republican news commentaters). but the was a man on there by the name of rm06c if anyones interested in looking, that had some strong arguments that backed up the whole anti-che, anti-Cuba argument. Now I'm confused, I know he wasn't a monster (as he claims) from my own research. but he said stuff that I can't replie to because I don't know. If anyone can look up this video and dispell the myths to me, I will tickle your calfs with a japanese feather. If thats what your in to. ;)

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 07:37 pm
I've recently been doing alot of research on Che guevara, and I find myself admiring his beliefs and qualities. But I came across a video on youtube called 'Che guevara the real story' It's a attack on Che and more generaly Cuba, by (what looks like typical republican news commentaters). but the was a man on there by the name of rm06c if anyones interested in looking, that had some strong arguments that backed up the whole anti-che, anti-Cuba argument. Now I'm confused, I know he wasn't a monster (as he claims) from my own research. but he said stuff that I can't replie to because I don't know. If anyone can look up this video and dispell the myths to me, I will tickle your calfs with a japanese feather. If thats what your in to. ;)
If you could provide the link...

I'm sorry, but YouTube is a freaking big site!

[thescarface1989]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xHirDOoRu8

I'm guessing this is it, its on Glenn Becks show :blink:

he interviews Humberto Fontova! :lol:

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 06:46 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xHirDOoRu8

I'm guessing this is it, its on Glenn Becks show :blink:

he interviews Humberto Fontova! :lol:
Oh, that's what this is all about? I'm familiar with Glenn Beck, and anyone else who is will tell you that he talks out of his butt on stuff he know nothing about 90% of the time.

He pronounced Fidel Castro "Fidels Castro". :lol:

[PigmerikanMao]

That's nice- never mind the people he had shot were war criminals who killed people and served a dictator, never mind castro and che's falling out over the issue of soviet support they bring up, just talk about the amounts of deaths and suddenly they're evil.

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 06:59 pm
That's nice- never mind the people he had shot were war criminals who killed people and served a dictator, never mind castro and che's falling out over the issue of soviet support they bring up, just talk about the amounts of deaths and suddenly they're evil.
Oh yes--I've heard all of the crap. The anti-Che idiots out there always forget about the corrupt police-state of Batista.

That's nothing new, really.

[manic expression]

Originally posted by COMRADE CRUM+December 04, 2007 01:03 am--> (COMRADE CRUM @ December 04, 2007 01:03 am)
[email protected] 03, 2007 06:59 pm
That's nice- never mind the people he had shot were war criminals who killed people and served a dictator, never mind castro and che's falling out over the issue of soviet support they bring up, just talk about the amounts of deaths and suddenly they're evil.
Oh yes--I've heard all of the crap. The anti-Che idiots out there always forget about the corrupt police-state of Batista.

That's nothing new, really. [/b]
If Batista was still around, they'd be lined up around the block to support him.

The people who make those claims are vile reactionary liars. Period.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

never mind castro and che's falling out over the issue of soviet support they bring up

There was no "falling out." Read "Death of a revolutionary" by Richard L. Harris for in depth info around Che's departure, relationship with Fidel, etc.

[PigmerikanMao]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 04, 2007 02:38 am

never mind castro and che's falling out over the issue of soviet support they bring up

There was no "falling out." Read "Death of a revolutionary" by Richard L. Harris for in depth info around Che's departure, relationship with Fidel, etc.
I shall do such, thank you for the suggestion. Bottom line though is that most of the critics of Che hardly know his actual history but only capitalist lies and if they did or weren't paid to ignore said history, their little stupid specials would be a lot different.

[thescarface1989]

If Batista was still around, they'd be lined up around the block to support him.

The people who make those claims are vile reactionary liars. Period.

Fontova actually defended the Batista Dictatorship! He said more people used to go to Cuba when he was in charge, My thoughts were "No Shit, they went and did whatever the fuck they wanted to do you idiot. What rich bastards wouldn't want to go? the people of Cuba where still oppressed!"

[manic expression]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 03:13 am

If Batista was still around, they'd be lined up around the block to support him.

The people who make those claims are vile reactionary liars. Period.

Fontova actually defended the Batista Dictatorship! He said more people used to go to Cuba when he was in charge, My thoughts were "No Shit, they went and did whatever the fuck they wanted to do you idiot. What rich bastards wouldn't want to go? the people of Cuba where still oppressed!"
Yeah, you hit it on the spot. I swear, the audacity of these people is just beyond me. Cuba was basically a huge brothel and casino for the mafia, US Navy and American ultra-rich, and they have the nerve to claim that this shows how great Cuba was before the revolution. It just goes to show how terrible these reactionaries are and how important our struggle really is.

[Titan]

The scarface 1989 has got the link.

[Titan]

I&#39;m not sure if everyones aware of the healthcare system in Cuba it&#39;s divided into ones for the public and 1s for diplomats and foreigners, can anyone tell me if this was within Che&#39;s own ideals. Because frankly it&#39;s unexeptable. <_<

[manic expression]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 12:13 pm
I&#39;m not sure if everyones aware of the healthcare system in Cuba it&#39;s divided into ones for the public and 1s for diplomats and foreigners, can anyone tell me if this was within Che&#39;s own ideals. Because frankly it&#39;s unexeptable. <_<
Post a link and evidence, then we&#39;ll analyze it.

Anyway, all Cubans recieve world-class medical care without question and Cuba oftentimes surpasses imperialist countries in health rates. Furthermore, Cuba works on a system of prevention instead of waiting for people to get sick and making a profit off of them. If that wasn&#39;t enough, they train many doctors from around the world for virtually nothing and send their own doctors to impoverished countries to help the people of the world. I could go on, but you should get the picture. Any criticism of the Cuban health system is misled IMO.

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by manic expression+December 03, 2007 08:32 pm--> (manic expression @ December 03, 2007 08:32 pm)
Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 04, 2007 01:03 am

[email protected] 03, 2007 06:59 pm
That&#39;s nice- never mind the people he had shot were war criminals who killed people and served a dictator, never mind castro and che&#39;s falling out over the issue of soviet support they bring up, just talk about the amounts of deaths and suddenly they&#39;re evil.
Oh yes--I&#39;ve heard all of the crap. The anti-Che idiots out there always forget about the corrupt police-state of Batista.

That&#39;s nothing new, really.
If Batista was still around, they&#39;d be lined up around the block to support him.

The people who make those claims are vile reactionary liars. Period. [/b]
Also, if you look at their family history, a lot of these anti-Cuban &#39;activists&#39; are the progeny of people who&#39;ve held posts in Batista&#39;s government or on the casino-boats.

Of course they&#39;re hypocrisy has been laid bare numerous times, when they&#39;ve called Fidel a murderous dictator--but called Gen.s Franco and Pinochet members of the &#39;free world&#39;.

[thescarface1989]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 12:13 pm
I&#39;m not sure if everyones aware of the healthcare system in Cuba it&#39;s divided into ones for the public and 1s for diplomats and foreigners, can anyone tell me if this was within Che&#39;s own ideals. Because frankly it&#39;s unexeptable.

http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic...entry1292428797 (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=73959&st=0&#entry1292428797)

Documentaries about the Health Care System

¡Salud&#33; Cuban HealthCare

Cuba The Accidental Revolution Part 2

[Titan]

Thanks for the link Scarface :D , that was a good doc. I didn&#39;t take into account these family doctors who actually go around door to door providing personal care. And the whole preventative medicine attidude is fantastic, just like they have in China and Japan. Although, I still have read cases detailing poor conditions in some hospitals. And the very fact they have to divide hospitals in to civilian and better-off-foreigners is still concerning. But I suppose you have to look at it relatively, America have private healthcare for the rich, and so do alot of other developed nations. Remeber Cuba is a 3rd world country, yet has the 1 of the best healthcare systems in the world, and the amount spent on it ( I can&#39;t remember the exact figures) It&#39;s something like &#036; 250 per head of population, compared to something like &#036; 2000 for America. Thats quite an achievement. I heard that the whole divide in Cuban healthcare ( between Cubans and foreigners) was inkeeping with Che&#39;s own ideals, is this true? :huh:

[Titan]

BY the way Manicexpression, I found the info on wikipedia, I just typed in &#39;Cuba&#39;.

[Spasiba]

Because this thread at least has a title dealing with this, thereby making a new thread unnecessary:
I&#39;ve been debating with someone about Che, he feels he&#39;s evil and anyone who likes him is an idiot, I feel otherwise. So, can we compile a list of the things Che did or said that I can use in a well organized set of examples of Che not being an asshole? Thnanks.

[Guerrilla Manila]

I read the entire Fontova book for pure comedy. It was complete horse shit &#33;


Fontova is 100 % Gusano &#33;


You can usually find his drivel on Newsmax, Stormfront, or ReichWing.com where he circle jerks with the other Nazi&#39;s and dreams of imaginary mansions his family used to own in Cuba. Or on TV shows with Glenn Beck and Beck&#39;s Magical Mormon Underwear.

Fontova is part of a small number of oligarch, ex mafia, and drug dealing scumbag chucha Cubans who fled Cuba like poocha&#39;s that now reside in the US (Mostly Miami) - and have aligned themselves naturally with the other clumps of American excrement = the Right Wing Conservatives. These Uncle Pedro&#39;s in Brownface now make a living by acting as the lawn jockeys for wealthy whites who are too racist to use blacks as their &#39;yes men&#39; so they choose the Cuban exile Gusano&#39;s to give them street cred for their CIA lies and anti-Castro propaganda.

Fontova (whose qualifications are that he is a boar hunter) --- if he wasn&#39;t filling this role, would probably be mowing lawns or running the drive thru window at Taco Bell --- thus is thankful to his American gringo owners and thus always does the attacking on Che, Castro, or any of those other dangerous "Commies" who dare stand up to Yanqui domination.

Men like Humberto Fontova --- have no honor, courage, pride, intelligence, or dignity .... thus they grovel and attempt to earn respect from Reich wingers with uncited drivel and crap about actual Latin American heroes.


Now most most people already know this .... but for the few who didn&#39;t ... now you know.


Patria o Muerte & Hasta la Victoria Siempre :che:

[Guerrilla Manila]

There have been dozens of books written by Che Guevara, not to mention the dozen or so books written by him including his personal diaries ... (+ a 850 pg Bio by John Lee Anderson), there have been countless documentaries made on Che Guevara from everyone including the not so left wing History Channel and A&E Channel.... and what Humberto A&#036;&#036;Clown would have you believe is that they are all shilling for Castro.

Fontova is on par with someone from the Flat Earth society ... or maybe those jack offs that think there were Brontosauruses on Noah’s ark.


All Fontova does in his book is take all of the heroic attributes of Che --- and say they were the exact opposite. He never sites credible sources, takes everything out of historical context ... and pulls almost all of it from his ass.

The only people you will find taking Fontova seriously are such intellectual hucksters as Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh etc (basically those with radio shows and IQ&#39;s bordering 60.)

[Lenin II]

Does anybody know much about Che&#39;s idealogical standpoint? I know he was pretty authoritarian....hell, he could probably give me a run for my money. It was Stalin who first converted him to communism, I think. I also think he was very anti-democracy as well. I&#39;ve only read "Guerrilla Warfare." Can anyone provide further insight?

[Leo]

Here&#39;s a good link on it: http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/2007/che-guevara

[Utopian]

Originally posted by Lenin [email protected] 13, 2007 05:58 am
Does anybody know much about Che&#39;s idealogical standpoint? I know he was pretty authoritarian....hell, he could probably give me a run for my money. It was Stalin who first converted him to communism, I think. I also think he was very anti-democracy as well. I&#39;ve only read "Guerrilla Warfare." Can anyone provide further insight?
IN Socialism Today and Tomorrow by Michael Albert and Robin Hahnel, there is a section on Cuba that does quote Che at length about many of his ideas. As far as economics goes, at least, I know off-hand that though he did not advocate direct workers&#39; control over their workplace and decision-making, he decried commodity mentality and material incentives, and emphasized meeting human needs in production. This might seem like no biggie, but it is definitely to the left of some of the thinking during other revolutionary periods.

[metalero]

Originally posted by Leo [email protected] 13, 2007 02:30 am
Here&#39;s a good link on it: http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/2007/che-guevara
just another slander at a true internationalist revolutionary, from the pseudo-communist ICC. You did better explaining how chavez was an "imperialist", or the bourgeois student protest an act of popular resistance :lol:

[Lenin II]

A comrade told me that in Che's “Against Bureaucratism” he calls for centralized planning, arguing that the Central Planning Board "lacked sufficient authority over the other bodies" and that they needed the economic powers to "issue precise orders based on a single system and with adequate supervision." Tell me, does this mean that he advocates the authority of local officials that were not even elected by the workers themselves? Is this some sort of undermining the workers’ liberation or is it that in Cuba there is simply no union or worker association that is independent from the state?

[ellipsis]

I remember I came back drunk from a party one night and stumbled upon Humberto Fontava and for a second believed all of his bullshit and cried. but then i realized that he published articles have typos in them, typos i caught within 15 mins while i was drunk. I have looked into the man, he is not an academic and he is not quoted in any academic sources on lexis nexis. My cuban american prof who teaches about cuba had never heard of him. He is full of shit. like his claim that che shot himself in the chin and you can see the scar. i can see no scar and when i emailed him about it he just said, thanks for the interest, check out my new book. what a dip shit.

[platano2988]

You know what there is no reason to argue with the idiots on the glenn beck show and the idiots who demonize CHE or at least try to. But I will sting them where it hurts. No matter what I say nothing will anger them more than the fact that there is absolutely nothing they can do to change the fact that the people know who CHE was, know what he lived for and what he died for. The Cuban revolution is not going anywhere and socialism whether you believe it or not will always exist in cuba. and will spread. The idiots posting comments on youtube demonizing him, and the conservative pigs who campaign against the cuban revolution know that all they can do is trade jokes, because they know that nothing will change. The revolution deepens everyday, every year, every decade and glenn beck nor this idiot psuedo author,bonafide fraud can't do anything about it. YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. and that is what angers you the most. You know what they say that the voice of the people is the voice of god. And the people love CHE, they love his ideals, the cuban revolution, the advances, their stances and their unselfish and sacrificing spirit. they take out their anger on others in the internet, TV. ETC. You know why? Because when push comes to shove they can't do anything about it. There going to go to cuba and challenge the revolution? Conservatives and moderates are composed of cowards who fight from mansions and not the trenches.
-Hasta La Victoria Siempre
-Venceremos

[chebol]

Re the health care system in Cuba.

One of my friends had a stroke when she was there several years ago. She received the same high quality care that locals did, for as long as she needed. No fee.

When I was there, I received the same - no special treatment.

And when I was in Venezuela, one of my friends got horribly ill. He was taken to a "quality" private hospital - they were totally inept, and made him worse. Then we rescued him and took him to Barrio Adentro, to be treated by Cuban doctors alongside everyday Venezuelans. He got better almost overnight.

It's true - socialism really DOES make you feel better.

[kromando33]

Che was actually in favor of Cuba not becoming dependent on the USSR economically, and not for Cuban troops to be used as an instrument of Khrushchevite imperialism.