Venezuelan Constitutional Referendum

[Marxist1917]

Today Chavez's new referendum will be put up to vote. The socialist reforms that they will be doing are probably the most progressive I have ever seen that do not come from a revolution. They include setting the maximum work day at 6 hours, setting up a new form of legal property to include property owned by the communal councils (Venezuela's soviets), creation of a fund for social security, lowering of voting age from 18 to 16, prohibiting large land estates, and continuing to develop the communal workers' councils.

Of course, the bourgeois press focuses on the fact that it abolishes term limits. But this really doesn't matter, because people still need to get elected. Many European parliaments don't have term limits.

Venezuela has really changed my previous view that revolution was needed in order to bring about socialism. We will have to wait and see how this turns out, as it may serve as a model for the transition into the dictatorship of the proletariat all over the world.

[Guest1]

They do come from a revolution.

[Marxist1917]

But not the kind of revolution that most people think of. They have not smashed the state and set up a new one.

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 07:21 am
But not the kind of revolution that most people think of. They have not smashed the state and set up a new one.
Which only goes to show that not all revolutions follow the destructive fantasies of some people.

Revolutions can be slow burning affairs. The Venezuelan one being a case in point. It has been going on for about ten years now, maybe even longer. (Do you think a man like Hugo Chavez could have been elected President in a normal bourgoisie controlled political situation with minimal class consciousness?)

In the last couple of years things have sped up a notch of course, which is all for the good, and even better there is general popular involvement. People really are taking control for themselves in the form of Communal Councils and various workplace committees. The fact that The Government is encouraging this rather than attempting to stop it or bring it under state control is an incredibly encouraging sign.

If these amendments pass it will be a clear signal that Venezuela really is ready to move forward another step. I wish that the matter of abolishing term limits had either been left until later or dealt with earlier though, because they are allowing the bourgoisie press to completely ignore the other far more important changes. Still they would have found a way to ignore those changes anyway I suppose.

[R_P_A_S]

theres gonna be a fight. sooner or later. lets not be silly. who against who? well thats still to be determined.

[lombas]

I don't get the lowering of the voting age and have doubts about quite some other suggestions.

All in all, I think it would've been better if each amendment would have been voted upon separately.

[bolshevik butcher]

The referendum today is arguably the single most important battle that the revolutionary proccess has faced yet. If this were to pass it would signal the beggining of a direct challenge to bourgoirse property rights by the Venezuelan working class.

Demrogon has quite accuratley laid out the course of events, but RPAS is correct. The ruling class in Venezuela is waiting for any lapse in the movement to launch a campaign of violence, and in recnet weeks we have already seen a Bolivarian activitst murdered, and groups of violent right wing students attacking left wingers. The only long term solutions to this is to continue the arming of the Venezuelan working class, and also most important to nationalise the big monopolies and most crucially the banks under working class control to erode the economic power of the bourgoirise and allow the building of socialism to begin.

[R_P_A_S]

yup. There's opposition. and it might not be a whole lot. but its pretty large. and these people have money and powerful friends. There will be a fight down the road. who knows maybe its even Chavez him self who gets a taste of the People's "stick" heh!

[Herman]

The CIA has their plan ready and the opposition will obey orders from the US. There will likely be violence, if not today then the following weeks.

Everyone should support the constitutional reform - it is a step forward for Venezuela and a step back for capital.

[RedAnarchist]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7123365.stm


This is a quote from Chavez in that article -

Speaking on Friday, Mr Chavez said: "If God gives me life and help, I will be at the head of the government until 2050." He would be 95 years old.

Why is it so important to him to be the leader? Does he not trust anyone else in his own party?

[Zurdito]

Firstly let me say that I oppose the sectors running the "No" campaign completely and look forward to the humiliation, division, demoralisation, and weakening on the international stage which they will suffer if they lose on Monday. Also, I celebrate the fact that Operation Pincer has been exposed, with all the lies and propaganda of the CIA and its agents in the Venezuelan right being held up for all to see.

Regarding Chavez though:

Populists like Peron did more in concrete terms -nationalisations, welfare, redistribution of welath etc. - than Chavez has, and nobody called them socialists. Chavez already dropped plans to downsize the army and hand more power over to reserves which he would rename "popular boliviarian militias" I believe. Then last week we saw the defection of ex Minister of Defence General Baduel. This shows the unease within the army and the right of the "Bolivarian" project. Also Chavez has said he has no wish to eliminate the Venezuelan bourgeoisie, and we know that sections of that class backs him.

So how are these contradictions going to pan out? Chavez can at some point either accomodate more and more to the right in the project, ie do a Gadaffi or a Peron (who was then thrown out nayway showing that however much carrot you give the bourgeoisie, they won't moderate themselves out of gratitude), or he can be thrown violently out like Allende was. Seeing as he has refused to arm the Venezuelan working class, how will they defend themselves any better than the Chilean people did? It looks to me that the rout Chavez is going down will lead to either an underhand betrayal, or a blood bath. while the capitalist state retains a monopoly on violence, the bourgeoisie has the upper hand.

I recommend this article by Lee Sustar of IWO:

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/2925

[Dominicana_1965]

This stream is covering the referendum throughout the whole day. It consists of 3 languages (English, Spanish & French). It is also covering some of the actions started by the opposition and public opinions in the voting centers.

http://radiovenezuelaenvivo.blogspot.com/

[Colombia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 03:17 pm
So how are these contradictions going to pan out? Chavez can at some point either accomodate more and more to the right in the project, ie do a Gadaffi or a Peron (who was then thrown out nayway showing that however much carrot you give the bourgeoisie, they won't moderate themselves out of gratitude), or he can be thrown violently out like Allende was. Seeing as he has refused to arm the Venezuelan working class, how will they defend themselves any better than the Chilean people did? It looks to me that the rout Chavez is going down will lead to either an underhand betrayal, or a blood bath. while the capitalist state retains a monopoly on violence, the bourgeoisie has the upper hand.
I don't believe that he hasn't armed his people. If that was the case and the left was entirely helpless, then we would see a similar situation to what is going on in Bolivia which is also working on their constitution. The difference between the two are extreme. I mean the Bolivians had to hide in a barrack I believe while the constitution is worked on. I've yet to see that occur in Venezuela but Chavez would probably stop it getting from such a level.

[Herman]

Why is it so important to him to be the leader? Does he not trust anyone else in his own party?

The thing you quoted is wrong. He actually said that, "If you want to, I will be president until 2050". This was part of his speech on friday. There is nothing wrong with this anyway. As he gives more power to the communal councils, the national power will decrease.


Populists like Peron did more in concrete terms -nationalisations, welfare, redistribution of welath etc. - than Chavez has, and nobody called them socialists.

What are you talking about? Peron didn't allow communcal councils to spring up. Nor did he encourage worker's occupying factories. Chavez is way different and better than Peron.


Chavez already dropped plans to downsize the army and hand more power over to reserves which he would rename "popular boliviarian militias" I believe.

Where did you get this information? The fact that there will be a bolivarian militias is a good thing. It's taking away power from the regular army and preparing people for the inevitable.


Then last week we saw the defection of ex Minister of Defence General Baduel. This shows the unease within the army and the right of the "Bolivarian" project.

No, it doesn't. It shows that the ex minister of defence is a traitor and his mask has been taken away.


Also Chavez has said he has no wish to eliminate the Venezuelan bourgeoisie, and we know that sections of that class backs him.

Wrong again. He has numerously countless times said that he wanted to defeat the bourgeoisie. Where do you get all this false information? He even said it in his speech on friday.


Seeing as he has refused to arm the Venezuelan working class, how will they defend themselves any better than the Chilean people did?

That's what the Bolivarian militias are FOR.

[La Comédie Noire]

Wrong again. He has numerously countless times said that he wanted to defeat the bourgeoisie. Where do you get all this false information? He even said it in his speech on friday.

Yeah, he said he wants to defeat the bourgeoisie but all his actions indicate he won't be doing that anytime soon.

If this is socialism, it’s the most business-friendly socialism ever devised .... The U.S. continues to be Venezuela’s most important trading partner. Much of this business is oil: Venezuela is America’s fourth-largest supplier, and the U.S. is Venezuela’s largest customer. But the flow of trade goes both ways and across many sectors. The U.S. is the world’s biggest exporter to Venezuela, responsible for a full third of its imports. The Caracas skyline is decorated with Hewlett-Packard and Citigroup signs, and Ford and G.M. are market leaders there. And, even as Chávez’s rhetoric has become more extreme, the two countries have become more entwined: trade between the U.S. and Venezuela has risen thirty-six per cent in the past year. (“Synergy With the Devil,” Jan. 8.)

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/20...talk_surowiecki (http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/2007/01/08/070108ta_talk_surowiecki)

I think all Chavez's talk is proof he's insecure about the size of his revolution. :lol:

[marxist_god]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 07:14 am
Today Chavez's new referendum will be put up to vote. The socialist reforms that they will be doing are probably the most progressive I have ever seen that do not come from a revolution. They include setting the maximum work day at 6 hours, setting up a new form of legal property to include property owned by the communal councils (Venezuela's soviets), creation of a fund for social security, lowering of voting age from 18 to 16, prohibiting large land estates, and continuing to develop the communal workers' councils.

Of course, the bourgeois press focuses on the fact that it abolishes term limits. But this really doesn't matter, because people still need to get elected. Many European parliaments don't have term limits.

Venezuela has really changed my previous view that revolution was needed in order to bring about socialism. We will have to wait and see how this turns out, as it may serve as a model for the transition into the dictatorship of the proletariat all over the world.

Karl Marx was right, in that nations and societies are constantly evolving. I think that conservatism is anti-science, anti-scientific, because of the fact that planet earth has been evolving constantly, all species evolves and every thing in real reality evolves. Venezuela and most nations in this world are evolving indeed, into a more progressive system, into real democracies. In fact i read in a Nietzsche book, that in the future there will be no governments (And i mention Nietzsche because Nietzsche wasn't even a leftist ideologist)

So even non-leftist philosophers claim that state-less communism will be real in the future

marxist_god

[thescarface1989]

http://plenglish.com/article.asp?ID={78E0F...5})&language=EN (http://plenglish.com/article.asp?ID={78E0F87B-DDD5-412D-A661-A41B20E31E65})&language=EN)

Venezuela Ready to Vote and Defend

Caracas, Dic 2 (Prensa Latina) Venezuela is ready today to vote on a referendum that will decide if it starts on the path to socialism, determined to defend the result arms in hand if necessary as was expressed by president Hugo Chavez.

The warning pointed Friday at the closing of the campaign by Chavez who exposed plans by the United States and the domestic opposition to provoke riots and violence to not recognize the foreseeable triumph of the "yes".

With a legal ban on political propaganda 24 hours before the referéndum on Sunday, December 2, over 16 million Venezuelans had a whole day to reflect on the issue after a gruelsome political campaign.

The context was complicated by a threat of foreign intervention exponed in a document of the United States embassy here that generated strong reaction from the head of State..

Chavez warned that next Monday oil supplies to the United States will be cut if a so-called "Plan Pliers", prepared by that country s government was enforced to provoke violence alledging fraud at the polls.

The plan was plotted in advance of the expected victory of the "yes", as most of the surveys suggested, aspirina to neutralize the vote with violent street actions waiting for a military response and even a foreign intervention.

"If I had to take a rifle again to defend the motherland, I would", warned Chavez, who ordered the army since Friday to take over the oil fields to protect them from an attack.

Before the possible participation of national and international media in the violent plan, Chavez alerted he would expel the foreign press correspondents if they go along with them and cut transmissions immediately in case of local media.

Chavez particularly warned the CNN TV network from the US, which he accused of distorting the truth, as well as Venezuelan channel Globovision, on suspicions it would begin giving false results of the voting by noon.

Over 16 million Venezuelans are registered to vote to decide on the constitutional reform of 69 of the 350 articles container in the Constitution, as part of the transformation process headed since 1999 by president Chavez.

[R_P_A_S]

indeed this is very different than what most of us imagined, read or dreamed how "socialism or revolution" might happen. Chavez is doing everything by the books. He's encouraging people to vote and decide the path of the country. I mean if the last 8 years have been so harsh under him People will make the right choice, vote NO or kick his ass out of office.

like most I'm not fully convinced on some of the 'procedures' but fuck. it's the most progressive changes to a constitution ever. specially this day in age. and People seem to want to go that route. I have full conviction the Venezuelans will make the correct choices and act accordingly.

But if the bourgeoisie state is not defeated or dissolve by Chavez or the Venezuelan people, then what's expect it? for it to live in harmony with "the revolution"? are there gonna be tax harder? I don't get that part for the coming future. thats not socialism then.

[marxist_god]

Under Chavez Venezuela might not be perfect, because of the fact that Venezuela is in a transitional-phase called a "Revolutionary Phase" which is problematic and full of struggles between the upper classes and lower classes.

I don't know if most americans and most people that live in USA are knowledagable enough, smart enought, educated enough, informed enough to understand what is "class struggle", what is a transitional stage between capitalism and socialism.

And what is capitalism, and what is socialism, and what is welfare-capitalism, and what is Imperialism, and what is neoliberalism !!

Most people do not know that at all.

It is true that most US workers get payed above 7 dollars per hour. But the US wealth and availability to pay workers such a high salary is caused by US appropiation of wealth thru its Imperialist system of wars.

Latin America is poor and is not able to pay workers and citizens such a high salary, because Latin America has been sacked by Spain, and now by USA which has been lasting about 500 years of total sacking first from Spain, then France, UK, and USA (The top dog imperialist)

It is sensible and rational to understand why Latin American workers, African workers and many other workers from other countries have a lesser standard of living, because their countries are not Imperialist systems. But victims of Imperialism.

That's why USA is wealthy, not because of free markets like Adam Smith claims in his book "The Wealth of Nations", but because of Imperialism

Hugo Chavez is trying to liberate not only Venezuela, but the whole latin american continent from this sacking, destruction and slavery of Spain, Europe and US Imperialisms


marxist_god

[La Comédie Noire]

Under Chavez Venezuela might not be perfect, because of the fact that Venezuela is in a transitional-phase called a "Revolutionary Phase" which is problematic and full of struggles between the upper classes and lower classes.

I don't know if most americans and most people that live in USA are knowledagable enough, smart enought, educated enough, informed enough to understand what is "class struggle", what is a transitional stage between capitalism and socialism.

And what is capitalism, and what is socialism, and what is welfare-capitalism, and what is Imperialism, and what is neoliberalism !!

Most people do not know that at all.

It is true that most US workers get payed above 7 dollars per hour. But the US wealth and availability to pay workers such a high salary is caused by US appropiation of wealth thru its Imperialist system of wars.

Latin America is poor and is not able to pay workers and citizens such a high salary, because Latin America has been sacked by Spain, and now by USA which has been lasting about 500 years of total sacking first from Spain, then France, UK, and USA (The top dog imperialist)

It is sensible and rational to understand why Latin American workers, African workers and many other workers from other countries have a lesser standard of living, because their countries are not Imperialist systems. But victims of Imperialism.

That's why USA is wealthy, not because of free markets like Adam Smith claims in his book "The Wealth of Nations", but because of Imperialism

Hugo Chavez is trying to liberate not only Venezuela, but the whole latin american continent from this sacking, destruction and slavery of Spain, Europe and US Imperialisms

I agree with what you are saying, but, and sorry if I misread this, what is it in response to?

[Herman]

If this is socialism, it’s the most business-friendly socialism ever devised .... The U.S. continues to be Venezuela’s most important trading partner. Much of this business is oil: Venezuela is America’s fourth-largest supplier, and the U.S. is Venezuela’s largest customer. But the flow of trade goes both ways and across many sectors. The U.S. is the world’s biggest exporter to Venezuela, responsible for a full third of its imports. The Caracas skyline is decorated with Hewlett-Packard and Citigroup signs, and Ford and G.M. are market leaders there. And, even as Chávez’s rhetoric has become more extreme, the two countries have become more entwined: trade between the U.S. and Venezuela has risen thirty-six per cent in the past year. (“Synergy With the Devil,” Jan. 8.)

...and? What's your point? Oh they're doing business with the US! They're trying to import what they need! They must be bourgeois! Traitors! Kill them! Murder them! We want bloody revolutions, not a peaceful transition to socialism!

This proves nothing. Like others have said, this is as well a transitional phase. Culture, education and radicalization have to take place. This is not the end, it is just the beginning.

[Dimentio]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 10:14 am
I don't get the lowering of the voting age and have doubts about quite some other suggestions.

All in all, I think it would've been better if each amendment would have been voted upon separately.
There I do agree.

[YSR]

Anarchists against the Chavista counter-revolution:

http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?...avez-referendum (http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=2007chavez-referendum)

(it takes awhile to load, infoshop.org is poor.)

[Guest1]

That's simply idiotic.

It rails against how the constitution privatises the oil industry and allows transnationals to profit from it.

The reform specifically prohibits the privatization of the oil industry, and attacks violently the influence of multinationals. It removes the requirement that they be treated equally as local producers even (which rolls back globalization, not increases it like your article claims).

Your "anarchists" are foaming-at-the-mouth idiots.

There are better anarchist critics around. Look harder.

[La Comédie Noire]

...and? What's your point? Oh they're doing business with the US! They're trying to import what they need! They must be bourgeois! Traitors! Kill them! Murder them! We want bloody revolutions, not a peaceful transition to socialism!

Did I say that? No, I'm merely taking everything he does, as a populist, with a grain of salt. I would read the article If I were you...


... he has done little to diversify the nation’s industrial base and lessen the economy’s dependence on oil, while his few tepid ventures into state ownership or coöperatives will have no meaningful economic impact.

I mean He's:

-Helping the poor.
-Educating people.
-Increasing the quality of life.

While dually:

Expanding his power while increasing the role of the military in everyday life.

But, these do not make him a Socialist leader. These make him a benevolent strong man, a bonapartist.

Good article on the subject...

http://www.workersliberty.org/node/5121

Everything he's done for the venezuelan people is Bourgeoise friendly!

Lower their working hours, raise their wages, give them education, let them consume, but don't put them in charge! I mean let them organize their work places but let's be sure they know who they are working for.

Nationalize the economy, but don't diversify the industry! No, we want an entire nation devouted to producing cheap oil which we will buy at a fair price.

Just like always.

State power isn't being wielded by the working class, it's being wielded by one man, who isn't doing anything remotely revolutionary.

RPAS Is correct, there is going to be a conflict and it's going to be between Chavez and the disatisfied workers.

[Zurdito]

What are you talking about? Peron didn't allow communcal councils to spring up. Nor did he encourage worker's occupying factories. Chavez is way different and better than Peron.

Peron nationalised more utilities and industry than Chavez has, and I'd say that material gains for Argentine workers under Peron were at least as good as Venezuelan workers material gains under Chavez:

http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/state.../Juan_Peron.htm (http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/state_and_revolution/Juan_Peron.htm)

1. Taking advantage of government leniency if not outright support, trade unions were formed in every industry. 2. Social security was made universal. 3. Education was made free to all who qualified. 4. Vast low-income housing projects were created. 5. Paid vacations became standard. 6. A working student was given one paid week before every major examination. 7. All workers (including white-collar employees like bank tellers, etc.) were guaranteed free medical care and half of their vacation-trip expenses. 8. A mother-to-be received 3 paid months off prior to and after giving birth. 9. Workers recreation centers were constructed all over Argentina, including a vast resort in the lower Sierras that included 8 hotels, scores of cabins, movies, swimming pools and riding stables. This resort was available to workers for 15 days a year, at the cost of 15 cents per day, all services included.



In order to strengthen Argentina's economy, Perón created the Argentina Institute for Promotion of Exchange (AIPE), a monopoly that handled all commodity exports. Cattle, wheat, etc. were sold at a high price overseas. While not socialism, this measure was consistent with the traditional Marxist demand for a monopoly on foreign trade. Perón also bought out the local IT&T operation and the railroad and trolley system from Great Britain. He paid off Argentina's foreign debt and launched a 5-year plan in 1946 that covered everything from the woman's right to vote to shipbuilding.



By 1954 Perón had initiated more than 45 major hydroelectric projects designed to produce 2 billion kilowatt-hours of energy, 20 times the amount that was available in 1936. While in hindsight we can say that these projects had ecological drawbacks, they still represented an audacious step in the direction of making every citizen's life more fulfilling. By 1947, Argentina had launched its own iron and steel industry. It was also moving forward in coal extraction and other raw materials using the most advanced technology available at the time. It began to make farm machinery, planes and cars in modest numbers. Ship-building had expanded by 500 percent under Perón's regime

The point about workers control is a fair one, but how much control do workers have? According to the constitutional reforms, the govt. defines the boundaries of communal cities. It looks like a stunt to stay ahead of a revolutionary situation on the ground rather than genuinely handing the power over to the working class; which os course we'd not expect Chavez to do. This is why the working class should organise independently of Chavez and not through him. FWIW I advocate critical support and entryism towards the PSUV: expose its contradictions. This is inc ontrast to groups in Venezuela like the JIR or the AWL in Britain who just want to ignore it. I'm not that sectarian: the bolivarian revolution is a huge, growing social movement with the potential to be puleld to the left. But the current leadership will need to be challenged at some point and it will need to be purged of the rightist elements. You apparently trust Chavez to that but as I see it he comes from that background and retains close links to them.


No, it doesn't. It shows that the ex minister of defence is a traitor and his mask has been taken away.

His mask? He was the General of a bourgeois army and he helped defeat the 2002 coup. Also he chose to change camps he was not "exposed" by chavistas.


wrong again. He has numerously countless times said that he wanted to defeat the bourgeoisie. Where do you get all this false information? He even said it in his speech on friday.

It's not wrong that he said what I quoted him as. If he contradicts himself, then that just shows the contradictory nature of his government which I was trying to point out in the first place.


That's what the Bolivarian militias are FOR.

Yes I got the wording wrong. I said he had dropped the plan of Bolivarian Militias. what I was referring to was the fact that he dropped the plan for a "Bolivarian Popular Militia" and replaced it with a "National Bolivarian Militia". That's not just semantics, it signals the swing away from talk about restructuring the army and turning into a special force for foreign policy whilst giving armed power at home to the reserves, back to keeping the reserves as subservient to a large army. You say the BNM will be capabl;e of defending the working class but I'm not so sure. For that to happen you need to attack the power of the army before it's too late, while you are on the rise, before the counter-revolution gets on the rise. It seems to me that Chavez is making the mistake of Allende; whether this comes from self-interest or indecisiveness it's not really my place to judge.

[Axel1917]

(it takes awhile to load, infoshop.org is poor.)

Yes, it is poor, especially in the area of theory, method, and analysis. By not supporting the referendum, the anarchists at infoshop have effectively sided with the right-wing opposition! There is a reason why virtually no adult workers listen to such anarchist nonsense.

If you said that nonsense to a Venezuelan worker or peasant, you would instantly be identified as a golpista, and for good reason. What kind of revolutionary opposes a reduction of the work day, making it easier to expropriate the capitalists, and help to empower the working class? Opposition to such things effectively makes one a counter-revolutionary regardless of intentions.

[Brady]

I'm also unsure about some aspects of this 'revolution'. His intention to keep on standing for re-election is worrying because the whole thing could become reliant on him and his charisma. Lets face it he could be assassinated at any time, and what would happen then? The project needs to be able to survive without him.
There's also the desperate need to diversify the economy and try and wean themselves off the oil industry.

Having said that these reforms are of course another positive step forward, and I'm very nervous about the result (and the possible repurcussians on the streets if Chavez wins). Early indications are its going to be close.

[La Comédie Noire]

Before progressing any further I think it is wise to note I see Chavez's reforms as positive, but the problem is they are just that, reforms. I just don't want to praise the man as a progressive socialist everytime he bends down to tie his shoe laces.

[Zurdito]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 11:18 pm

(it takes awhile to load, infoshop.org is poor.)

Yes, it is poor, especially in the area of theory, method, and analysis. By not supporting the referendum, the anarchists at infoshop have effectively sided with the right-wing opposition! There is a reason why virtually no adult workers listen to such anarchist nonsense.

If you said that nonsense to a Venezuelan worker or peasant, you would instantly be identified as a golpista, and for good reason. What kind of revolutionary opposes a reduction of the work day, making it easier to expropriate the capitalists, and help to empower the working class? Opposition to such things effectively makes one a counter-revolutionary regardless of intentions.
No revolutionary opposes those measures: that doesn't mean you support all aspects of the programme. If that was all that was being proposed then I would support it, obviously.

What about the Venezuelan workers who want to organise independently of Chavez like C-Cura? They are adult workers.

[Marxist1917]

I notice some people are not fully supportive of the referendum because they think it will give more power to Chavez. Well, if you look at the communal councils he is setting up, you will realize that in reality the power is going completely to the people of venezuela. This referendum will formally recognize the workers' councils. It is a new and higher form of democracy that is being set up.

[spartan]

I notice some people are not fully supportive of the referendum because they think it will give more power to Chavez. Well, if you look at the communal councils he is setting up, you will realize that in reality the power is going completely to the people of venezuela. This referendum will formally recognize the workers' councils. It is a new and higher form of democracy that is being set up.
With the workers councils and all will Chavez' Venezuela be a Soviet Democracy?

I bloody hope so!

[YSR]

By not supporting the referendum, the anarchists at infoshop have effectively sided with the right-wing opposition!

Fer the record, that's Infoshop's news site. They're reprinting someone else's words.


There is a reason why virtually no adult workers listen to such anarchist nonsense.

It can't be the same reason why virtually no adult workers listen to Trotskyist nonsense, can it? That they're boring, out-of-touch clowns?


Originally posted by Comrade Floyd
Before progressing any further I think it is wise to note I see Chavez's reforms as positive, but the problem is they are just that, reforms. I just don't want to praise the man as a progressive socialist everytime he bends down to tie his shoe laces.

This.

(As to the article, CyM is right. It's not a particularly good analysis, I just couldn't get ahold of any other Venezuelan anarchist critiques.)

[fredbergen]

New article from The Internationalist:

Cast a Blank Ballot in the Constitutional Referendum, and Prepare for Class War

Venezuela: Impose Workers Control on the Road to Socialist Revolution

Smash Counterrevolution with Workers Mobilization!

No Political Support to the Bourgeois Populist Chávez – Build a Revolutionary Workers Party!

On December 2, Venezuelans will vote on a proposal to reform 69 articles of the Constitution of the Bolivarian Republic, adopted in 1999. Both supporters of President Hugo Chávez (who are voting “yes”) and rightist reactionaries (who are voting “no”) portray the measures as opening the door to socialism in Venezuela. This is in no way the case. The various changes aim at strengthening presidential power and instituting a series of social reforms that do not go beyond the limits of capitalism. Although several of the reforms are positive, the overall effect would be to grant unlimited powers to the president and the bourgeois state apparatus, particularly the army, which will inevitably be used against the workers, as has already occurred. Class-conscious Venezuelan workers should abstain on the constitutional referendum, while joining in mobilizations to block any move by rightist reaction backed by U.S. imperialism to stage a coup during or after the voting. In particular in order to block capitalist attempts to create artificial food shortages, workers should seize control of the entire agricultural/food manufacturing and marketing chain. Venezuela: Impose Workers Control (http://www.internationalist.org/venezuelaworkerscontrol0712.html)

[marxist_god]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 08:28 pm
indeed this is very different than what most of us imagined, read or dreamed how "socialism or revolution" might happen. Chavez is doing everything by the books. He's encouraging people to vote and decide the path of the country. I mean if the last 8 years have been so harsh under him People will make the right choice, vote NO or kick his ass out of office.

like most I'm not fully convinced on some of the 'procedures' but fuck. it's the most progressive changes to a constitution ever. specially this day in age. and People seem to want to go that route. I have full conviction the Venezuelans will make the correct choices and act accordingly.

But if the bourgeoisie state is not defeated or dissolve by Chavez or the Venezuelan people, then what's expect it? for it to live in harmony with "the revolution"? are there gonna be tax harder? I don't get that part for the coming future. thats not socialism then.
RPAS: U are right, in fact it is fair to state that Venezuela is the most democratic nation of this world

marxist_god

[marxist_god]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 09:30 pm
Anarchists against the Chavista counter-revolution:

http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?...avez-referendum (http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=2007chavez-referendum)

(it takes awhile to load, infoshop.org is poor.)



How traitor you are !!

marxist_god

[marxist_god]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 02, 2007 09:47 pm

...and? What's your point? Oh they're doing business with the US! They're trying to import what they need! They must be bourgeois! Traitors! Kill them! Murder them! We want bloody revolutions, not a peaceful transition to socialism!

Did I say that? No, I'm merely taking everything he does, as a populist, with a grain of salt. I would read the article If I were you...


... he has done little to diversify the nation’s industrial base and lessen the economy’s dependence on oil, while his few tepid ventures into state ownership or coöperatives will have no meaningful economic impact.

I mean He's:

-Helping the poor.
-Educating people.
-Increasing the quality of life.

While dually:

Expanding his power while increasing the role of the military in everyday life.

But, these do not make him a Socialist leader. These make him a benevolent strong man, a bonapartist.

Good article on the subject...

http://www.workersliberty.org/node/5121

Everything he's done for the venezuelan people is Bourgeoise friendly!

Lower their working hours, raise their wages, give them education, let them consume, but don't put them in charge! I mean let them organize their work places but let's be sure they know who they are working for.

Nationalize the economy, but don't diversify the industry! No, we want an entire nation devouted to producing cheap oil which we will buy at a fair price.

Just like always.

State power isn't being wielded by the working class, it's being wielded by one man, who isn't doing anything remotely revolutionary.

RPAS Is correct, there is going to be a conflict and it's going to be between Chavez and the disatisfied workers.


Of course he has to invest in military power, in order to deffend the new bolivarian revolution and the OIL, from US Imperialism and allies

marxist_god

[R_P_A_S]

could it be that Chavez is just giving more kick backs to the working class. but yet keep and assure the coexistence of the bourgeoisie and their private property?

like just bending the rules a bit so that "it's not so bad" for the working class. But it stays just as good for the upper class? I dunno. It's Chavez trying to make Venezuelan Society like a Hippie-Bohemian restaurant? like some of the ones here in West Hollywood? where the upper class liberals smile at the bus boy and claim we all the same, yet they wouldn't give up their Mercedes Benz?

[Labor Shall Rule]

There are no political tendencies that represent some form of "true socialism" because there is no truly revolutionary situation yet. It takes radical intervels within the course of the class struggle for the working class to achieve the technical, social, and economic skills that make control of the entire economy possible in the first place. To my recollection, this is what is occuring in Venezuela. The left-bourgeois are weak, and are throwing away concessions that put a stress on global imperialism, which is, in turn, fueling up sentiment with the upper tier of the capitalist class.

I don't understand how anyone could curse Venezuela for being trading partners with the United States. If they were to go to "true socialism" immediately, the country would instantly be cut off from the world economy, and an unprecendented catastrophe would occur.

We shouldn't mistakenly identify Chavez's red-glittered populist reforms with socialism, but at the same time, we need to carry on with these measures because they throw fuel on the fire of the internal conflict between wage-labor and the imperialist oil-kings. In the end, Chavez has nowhere to go. He can not decide to be 'moderate' out of the blue, because he is now pitted against the most formidable force on this planet - imperialism, which does not discriminate between 'moderates' or 'communists' that might be pressing for pro-working class measures.

[Zurdito]

There are no political tendencies that represent some form of "true socialism" because there is no truly revolutionary situation yet.

Revolutionary situations do not arise without the intervention of revolutionaries. This is what so many people keep misunderstanding here. The Bolsheviks were founded 15 years before the Russian revolution. Was Russia in 1902 (or 1898 when the RSDLP was founded) in a vastly more revolutionary situation than Venezuela is today? Do you think the events leading up to 1917 just "happened"? Would they have resulted in revoltuion if it hadn't been for a dedicated organisation hell-bent on bringing one about? f course revolutionaries can't just "wish" for a revoltuion and it will happen, but neither do they happen independently of revolutionaries: firslty the class struggle progresses based on past victories, and these acheived through correct leadership and organisation. Second when big crises do occur which we have noc otnrol over, the working class will nto take pwoer unless the right arguments and right infrastructure are widely available to workers.

Have you heard of C-Cura? There is a revolutionary left in Venezuela as there is anywhere else, and many of them are within the PSUV and preparing for conflict with the rightist elements.

I agree, now is NOT the time to break from Chavez. However revolutionaries do exist in Venezuela, and Chavez is not one of them. Therefore they must be constantly preparing for a rupture with him and building independently to pressue hima s far as possible.


It takes radical intervels within the course of the class struggle for the working class to achieve the technical, social, and economic skills that make control of the entire economy possible in the first place. To my recollection, this is what is occuring in Venezuela. The left-bourgeois are weak, and are throwing away concessions that put a stress on global imperialism, which is, in turn, fueling up sentiment with the upper tier of the capitalist class.

I agree with that analysis. So far, I propose critical support for the PSUV.

[Axel1917]

A comrade has been translating from Globovision (watching it on his PC), and it looks like the "No" vote has won! :o I don't know what is going on, but we will have to keep in touch with things for sure.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 05:26 am
A comrade has been translating from Globovision (watching it on his PC), and it looks like the "No" vote has won! :o I don't know what is going on, but we will have to keep in touch with things for sure.
Globovision is such a good source too&#33; <_<

[Axel1917]

Originally posted by R_P_A_S+December 02, 2007 11:28 pm--> (R_P_A_S &#064; December 02, 2007 11:28 pm)
[email protected] 03, 2007 05:26 am
A comrade has been translating from Globovision (watching it on his PC), and it looks like the "No" vote has won&#33; :o I don&#39;t know what is going on, but we will have to keep in touch with things for sure.
Globovision is such a good source too&#33; <_< [/b]
Sorry about anyone who has viewed things recently, as I accidentally hit edit on your post and put my stuff in. I believe I have restored it to its original context. I deeply apologize if I have messed anything up, as I am not used to being a mod, and normally I was not given access when I accidentally hit the edit button on another user&#39;s post.

The HOV referendum blog has also announced a "No" victory as well. See http://hovreferendum.wordpress.com/ Chavez has also recognized the result.

I don&#39;t know what the hell is going on, but keep your eyes sharp&#33; Who knows what is going on, and who knows what is going on regarding the reactionary opposition.

[Guest1]

This is fucked, and all, including anarchists and sectarian Marxists, should count this as a defeat.

A 6 hour work day, free universities, simplified expropriations of capitalists, community councils with the power to expropriate price-fixers, factory councils, student/teacher/staff elected administrators at all universities, I don&#39;t understand how anyone could oppose this reform and still call for revolutionary change.

[La Comédie Noire]

A comrade has been translating from Globovision (watching it on his PC), and it looks like the "No" vote has won&#33; I don&#39;t know what is going on, but we will have to keep in touch with things for sure.

That actually suprises me. From all indications the right seemed far too disorganized and confused to constitute a majority. I mean some of them where boy cotting the election, no?


Of course he has to invest in military power, in order to deffend the new bolivarian revolution and the OIL, from US Imperialism and allies

marxist_god

I&#39;d much rather see the military form it&#39;s own councils and communicate with the worker&#39;s councils.

[Led Zeppelin]

Allowing the bourgeois media to function during such an important vote was stupid of Chavez to do, but then again, he&#39;s not a revolutionary Marxist, so it&#39;s understandable.

The vote was objectively in the best interest of the working-class, if Chavez was in its vanguard, that is, its most advanced section, he would&#39;ve realized this and taken the actions necessary to ensure that the vote would&#39;ve passed.

Personally I believe they should&#39;ve been passed without a referendum, but I guess bourgeois legality wouldn&#39;t allow that.

[Guest1]

He lost because he allowed the debate to focus on him, rather than on the 6 hour day, the communal councils etc... In other words, the socialist content of the reforms.

The bureaucrats campaigning definitely did not spread that message, either tacitly wishing it to be defeated, or perhaps even considering left rhetoric "too radical", thereby concentrating on the message "a vote against the reform is a vote against Chavez".

Now it&#39;s time to see whether the PSUV can do what needs to be done, rank-and-file militant mobilization, organization, education. If the PSUV can fill the hole the labour unions have left wide open, and help organize factory takeovers, Chavez can nationalize parts of the economy without need for a new constitution or parliamentary approval for another year.

Same with granting powers to the communal councils.

It&#39;s now up in the air. Will he go all out and use his powers to the limit to destroy the elements of the state that just fucked him? Or will he take this as "losing the middle class", be demoralized and start "searching a middle ground"?

I personally think he will be reinvigorated by the base of the PSUV as the struggle in that party heats up.

It&#39;s up to the working class to drag him along with them.

[More Fire for the People]

1. The Venezuelan constitutional referendum is a product of class relations and class struggle. It represents a certain moment in the contention of power between an ascending and descending classes. The referendum demonstrates who ultimately will dominate the next period of the class struggle — and it is clear that the bourgeoisie have one the upper hand.

2. The reformist content of the referendum would have delivered a significant blow to the bourgeoisie, leaving them in a critical-terminal state, creating a situation where the working class could seize power, even against Chavez, by training popular militias.

3. Now the situation has shifted to one where the working class has lost political gains and must regroup. Historical materialism leads us to conclude that there are three options: (1) the return of the comprador bourgeoisie as the dominant power; (2) a political stalemate mediated by Chavez; (3) a revolutionary insurrection. For the latter option to happen three things need to take place: (a) expelling non-workers, non-peasants from the communal councils; (b) creation and organization of popular militias by the communal councils; arm the working class; in general &copy;; strip the police, bourgeoisie, and their allies of power.

[Guest1]

I would say expanding the factory occupations movement is the essential next step, with arming the workers as the way to defend it.

Insurrection is not necessary yet, in my mind, though the remainder of your appraisal makes sense. In fact, insurrection would probably be suicide with sectors demoralized by the referendum. It would signify beginning the civil war/war with america at a time when we know the working class is not mobilized enough. In otherwords, it&#39;s to advocate running head first into a slaughterhouse. The revolution would be drowned in blood.

First and foremost is occupying the parts of the economy that have ceased to function (sabotage), and run it under workers&#39; control. When the workers aren&#39;t hungry anymore, the workers&#39; and peasants&#39; committees couldn&#39;t have an easier way of explaining their existance to the working class.

"The bosses cut our milk. So we took over and occupied the bosses. Now we give the community milk, and work without a boss. We vote."

This will lay the basis for defense of the revolution.

[More Fire for the People]

I agree, the development of a workers and peasants insurrection is a protracted struggle. It begins with the politicization of the working class, something that has already been accomplish, and goes through phases, perhaps lasting years or decades, until the working class achieves a maturity level* where it can seize power or engage in a protracted arm struggle.

I think factory occupations and takeover of the communal councils will [will not should] occur simultaneously or within a year&#39;s span. Perhaps a decade or so for the whole process.

*the banner of maturity should never be used as an excuse to not go forward with spontaneous insurrection. Each moment of emergent working class power is valuable. Telling rioters to stop is the equivalent of telling the Levellers to wait 500 years.

[VukBZ2005]

Originally posted by Hopscotch [email protected] 03, 2007 10:09 am
I think factory occupations and takeover of the communal councils will [will not should] occur simultaneously or within a year&#39;s span. Perhaps a decade or so for the whole process.

Various factory occupations have already taken place throughout Venezuela within the past five years.

However, now that this situation has experienced its first major demoralization, the occupations movement in the factories have a choice to make; either they rapidly intensify the strength of the movement and seize all key manufacturing plants from the Opposition, thus undermining their power, in addition to adding more pressure onto Chavez to not reconcile and to move forward, or they will stay in the current mode of being, eventually regressing and declining.

The Opposition has apparently made their move. It is time for the Venezuelan working class to make theirs.

[YSR]

Originally posted by CyM+--> (CyM)He lost because he allowed the debate to focus on him, rather than on the 6 hour day, the communal councils etc... In other words, the socialist content of the reforms.[/b]

I agree. My problem with Chavez (besides the obvious fact that he&#39;s a politician) has long been that he allows himself to become the figurehead of the "revolution," much like Lenin did. What a great way to allow the bourgeois media to reduce the contradictions of class struggle to talking instead about a single man.


Marxist "God"
How traitor you are &#33;&#33;

See, it&#39;s this fucked up mentality which is what drives me crazy about you Chavistas. As soon as someone challenges you, they become a counter-revolutionary. The cult of Chavez is just as dangerous as the man himself.