Any primitivists on here?

[Os Cangaceiros]

I haven't encountered any yet.

If there are any, please post. You hippies rule.

[RevSkeptic]

The mass of humanity is pretty much maladjusted, overpretentious primitivists in a modern technological world invented by non-primitivist, logical thinking, natural skeptics called scientists.

You are cave and hut dwellers made comfortable and arrogant by the work of the occasional mutant genius.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 06:00 am
The mass of humanity is pretty much maladjusted, overpretentious primitivists in a modern technological world invented by non-primitivist, logical thinking, natural skeptics called scientists.

You are cave and hut dwellers made comfortable and arrogant by the work of the occasional mutant genius.
I admit, I am extremely skeptical of that theory. ;)

[RevSkeptic]

Really? You're skeptical?

What is the percentage of the population that are religious?

What is the percentage of the population that are technical or scientific?

And the local gladiator coliseum renamed the football field in our "civilized" modern times.
Is it more popular than the public library or less popular?

[Os Cangaceiros]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 06:51 am
Really? You're skeptical?

What is the percentage of the population that are religious?

What is the percentage of the population that are technical or scientific?

And the local gladiator coliseum renamed the football field in our "civilized" modern times.
Is it more popular than the public library or less popular?
OK. I'm glad you cleared that up for me.

By the way, I was being sarcastic in my last post, in case you didn't catch that.

It seems that your point is that everyone is stupid, and we should grovel before the mutant scientists who make our posh way of life so comfortable for us. That's all well and good. However, you have a highly simplistic view; for example, what part of the population is technical? I know plenty of fisherman here in Alaska who can take apart a boat engine completely and put it back together again, but who aren't the "brightest crayons in the box", so to speak.

I don't know where you live, but go to any working class community and you will see that the basic mechanisms that keep our society running aren't exactly super geniuses.

[RevSkeptic]

Industrial assembly line techniques have either dumb down the general population to the degree it is today where you go to your steady, 9 to 5, dumb downed factory or office job or made the top competitive person that went through assembly line "schooling" who is hired for that elite job position an overpaid egotistical ass. What a screwed up world we live in!

What's the mainstream "radical" solution to this?

The right wingers want more overpaid egotistical jerks because they think too highly of themselves and could not possibly imagine that they could just as well be replaced by a group of skilled individuals. All the better because that monster ego of theirs plays into the hand of the untalented money hoarder who can replace one egotistical jerk with another.

The left wingers want everybody the same which is ridiculous because everybody is not the same. A highly skilled person is not the same as an unskilled one. The return of the guilds in the form of a Socialist confederation of guilds is the only way out of this. But, things have gone so far out of hand that you have two great classes involved in a struggle as the Marxist is so fond of saying. On one side you have the masses of the unskilled, unmotivated, dull, uncreative and unambitious workers or unemployed and on the other you have the egotistical jerks backed up by sociopathic money hoarders.

I think this would end badly. But, even if it ends well. Do I want my intelligence, personality and individuality be reduced to that of a boorish, unskilled rabble and call that Socialism? :lol:

The gradual building up of skills and pride in work through a officially sponsored association of skilled people mentoring those who come before them is the way forward for human society, not the equalization of unskilled labour which logically means the suppression of the individual which is what makes us all different and all human.

[Easterbrook]

I'm sorry to ask, but exactly what is a primitivist?

Is it someone who wants to go back to a hunter/gathering society?

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 11:47 am
I'm sorry to ask, but exactly what is a primitivist?

Is it someone who wants to go back to a hunter/gathering society?
Yes it is.

But people on this forum have erected the most titanic strawman when dealing with Primitivism. I know Primitivists who love technology who wish it could keep going, but predict, based on scientific data about polution, and social studies around increase in Suicide and depression in Industrialised nations, that either it will destroy us, or we will destory it.

I disagree, but as they base their opinions on facts and share many values with us, we can at least debate rationally.

[Easterbrook]

Originally posted by William Everard+December 02, 2007 12:15 pm--> (William Everard @ December 02, 2007 12:15 pm)
[email protected] 02, 2007 11:47 am
I'm sorry to ask, but exactly what is a primitivist?

Is it someone who wants to go back to a hunter/gathering society?
Yes it is.

But people on this forum have erected the most titanic strawman when dealing with Primitivism. I know Primitivists who love technology who wish it could keep going, but predict, based on scientific data about polution, and social studies around increase in Suicide and depression in Industrialised nations, that either it will destroy us, or we will destory it.

I disagree, but as they base their opinions on facts and share many values with us, we can at least debate rationally. [/b]
Thanks for the explanation. Kind of sounds like Terminator. :D

[Dr Mindbender]

capitalism is primitivism.

[The Advent of Anarchy]

A primitivist is someone who doesn't see the irony in posting on an internet forum. *points at every primitivist on the OI*

:D

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 02:48 pm
A primitivist is someone who doesn't see the irony in posting on an internet forum. *points at every primitivist on the OI*

:D
ah, well one would hope that explains the apparent lack of. Maybe they're too busy fucking trees.
:lol:

[Publius]

Yes it is.

But people on this forum have erected the most titanic strawman when dealing with Primitivism.

They typecast themselves.


I know Primitivists who love technology who wish it could keep going, but predict, based on scientific data about polution, and social studies around increase in Suicide and depression in Industrialised nations, that either it will destroy us, or we will destory it.

Which is why they get laughed out any serious conversation.

The increase in suicide and depression is still so much lower than the health benefits of technology that you could only surmise that technology was negative if you already had a ridiculous anti-technology bias.

Now, we may end up destroying ourselves due to technology, but that doesn't make technology bad, it just makes us incompetent, which we'll be with technology or without it.



I disagree, but as they base their opinions on facts and share many values with us, we can at least debate rationally.

Most primativists or anti-humanists. I don't share their values.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by William Everard+--> (William Everard)But people on this forum have erected the most titanic strawman when dealing with Primitivism. I know Primitivists who love technology who wish it could keep going, but predict, based on scientific data about polution, and social studies around increase in Suicide and depression in Industrialised nations, that either it will destroy us, or we will destory it.[/b]

Technology will destroy us if we are careless, but I see that as an argument for being careful instead of an argument for abolishing technology.

As for humanity willing to destroy technology? That goes against recent human history. Once we caught the "innovation bug" after millennia of stagnation, we've seen little reason to willingly stop.


RevSkeptic
The left wingers want everybody the same which is ridiculous because everybody is not the same.

My, what a magnificient strawman. Did you build it yourself, or did you shamelessly rip it off the right wingers you so denigrate?


On one side you have the masses of the unskilled, unmotivated, dull, uncreative and unambitious workers or unemployed and on the other you have the egotistical jerks backed up by sociopathic money hoarders.

Do you often make sweeping generalisations about entire social groups?

You fucking rem.

[Os Cangaceiros]

A cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father wants you to telepathically acknowledge him as your master so that he can remove an evil force from your soul that was put there when a talking snake convinced a rib-woman to eat the fruit of a magical tree that he put in a garden now guarded by an angel with a fiery sword - Christianity in one sentence


That's quite possibly the most brilliant thing I've ever read.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 10:14 pm
That's quite possibly the most brilliant thing I've ever read.
That's quite possibly the most off-topic thing I've ever read.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 11:42 am
On one side you have the masses of the unskilled, unmotivated, dull, uncreative and unambitious workers or unemployed and on the other you have the egotistical jerks backed up by sociopathic money hoarders.
Tell me, have you ever interacted with any normal people? If you feel so grand and superior it leads me to believe that you haven't.


I think this would end badly. But, even if it ends well. Do I want my intelligence, personality and individuality be reduced to that of a boorish, unskilled rabble and call that Socialism? :lol:

You're not as intelligent as you think. But I think that's because you estimate your "intelligence, personality and individuality" to be greater than that of, say, smegma.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Originally posted by William Everard+December 02, 2007 11:39 pm--> (William Everard @ December 02, 2007 11:39 pm)
[email protected] 02, 2007 10:14 pm
That's quite possibly the most brilliant thing I've ever read.
That's quite possibly the most off-topic thing I've ever read. [/b]
Possibly.

Back to the topic, though: I'm pretty self-admittedly ignorant on Primitivism. It's not a particularly interesting sect of radical thought for me. The only Primitivist I've read is John Zerzan, and that man is freaking insane, in my humble opinion. So, if there are any Primitivists out there, I'd like to hear what you have to say on all this...

[RevSkeptic]

On one side you have the masses of the unskilled, unmotivated, dull, uncreative and unambitious workers or unemployed and on the other you have the egotistical jerks backed up by sociopathic money hoarders.
Tell me, have you ever interacted with any normal people? If you feel so grand and superior it leads me to believe that you haven't.




I think this would end badly. But, even if it ends well. Do I want my intelligence, personality and individuality be reduced to that of a boorish, unskilled rabble and call that Socialism?
You're not as intelligent as you think. But I think that's because you estimate your "intelligence, personality and individuality" to be greater than that of, say, smegma.

You are in the minority.

Tell me how much is pride in work and skills important to people rather than things like routine and pay? Would some people trade pride in skills for better pay even if the job requires no skill and is uninspiring?

The point I'm trying to make here is that a political program will naturally attract the kind of people that would most benefit from it. What is it in the political program of Leninist and Maoist that would attract people who simply want a routine life of consumption to be fed by the state forever and would take no initiative to be anything else other than the equivalent of unmotivated drones? Don't tell me there aren't people like that otherwise consumer society would be a flop.

Further, actions speak louder than words. What is the program that was implemented by Lenin or Mao when they gained power. Nationalization. NEP. Denigrating intellectuals and skilled workers by sending them off to the country side to work as unskilled labour. Assembly line techniques and Taylorism. Granted that they limited by the pool of skill labour at the time, but how is their program going to lead to what can be considered a Socialist society where pride in work rather than pride in personal ownership and wealth is primary?

It isn't.

Guild socialism is totally different Marx's program which Lenin and Mao and all other mainstream leftists were following which only led to the disasters of red bureaucracies you saw in the twentieth century.

Guilds mean you apprentice and learn from a group of people more skilled than you until you become competent. Communes mean you let everybody have a chance regardless of skill and pay everybody equally regardless of quality of work (I personally know this happened). How is this not going to end up well?

[RevSkeptic]

Oh, and to the posters that insult me, you should have been smart enough to realize I wasn't referring to you because unlike most people on the planet, you can think.

But, realize you're not the mainstream because if you were I wouldn't be posting on a board with Che's face on it. So, how did Leninism turned out for Cuba? Is Cuba full of skilled craftsmen that did away forever with manual drudgery and all jobs inspired the worker with pride in his own skills? Is Cuba the newest high tech. power rivaling the island nation of Japan? If the Cuban Socialists believed in half of what their propaganda was spouting they would have made investing in the education and skills of people so they take pride in their work their primary objective. Whole new institutions similar to guilds where more experienced skilled workers mentor the rookies would have been made official policy.

Or do you think you share something in common with Maoists who want to send the skilled workers into washing toilets and farming and factory work rather than innovating technology to make those type of jobs obsolete. Perhaps you'll change your tune once these guys get into power.