WAR STRESSOR

[hajduk]

I discuse with my comraders about what we will do if we got ocasion to make assasination of some imperialist (like Gavrilo Princip do http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu8...&iscqry=&fr=sfp (http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu8XDHlBHU08AkFql87UF?p=gavrilo+pri ncip&ei=UTF-8&iscqry=&fr=sfp) ) or to make some riots witch will be the cause of starting world war or revolution with lot of innocent victims,would you do that and take responsibility for that kind of deicison?

[toater]

its a bit niave to suggest that Princip's actions directly caused ww1. It was an inevitability, if Austria Hungary hadnt demanded action over that, it would have been something else, but I see what you're getting at mate.

[hajduk]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 02:51 pm
its a bit niave to suggest that Princip's actions directly caused ww1. It was an inevitability, if Austria Hungary hadnt demanded action over that, it would have been something else, but I see what you're getting at mate.
so what you will do?

[toater]

Originally posted by hajduk+November 30, 2007 03:26 pm--> (hajduk @ November 30, 2007 03:26 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 02:51 pm
its a bit niave to suggest that Princip's actions directly caused ww1. It was an inevitability, if Austria Hungary hadnt demanded action over that, it would have been something else, but I see what you're getting at mate.
so what you will do? [/b]

[email protected] 30, 2007 02:51 pm
its a bit niave to suggest that Princip's actions directly caused ww1. It was an inevitability, if Austria Hungary hadnt demanded action over that, it would have been something else, but I see what you're getting at mate.
so what you will do?

that suggests I think a revolution is 1) necessary 2) possible and 3) legitimate.


what about you?

[hajduk]

Originally posted by toater+November 30, 2007 03:33 pm--> (toater @ November 30, 2007 03:33 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 03:26 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 02:51 pm
its a bit niave to suggest that Princip's actions directly caused ww1. It was an inevitability, if Austria Hungary hadnt demanded action over that, it would have been something else, but I see what you're getting at mate.
so what you will do?

[email protected] 30, 2007 02:51 pm
its a bit niave to suggest that Princip's actions directly caused ww1. It was an inevitability, if Austria Hungary hadnt demanded action over that, it would have been something else, but I see what you're getting at mate.
so what you will do?

that suggests I think a revolution is 1) necessary 2) possible and 3) legitimate.


what about you? [/b]
you didnt understand me,i ask you,will you do some action which will be stressor for making a world war or revolution which will have lot of innocent victims like result?

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 02:41 pm
I discuse with my comraders about what we will do if we got ocasion to make assasination of some imperialist (like Gavrilo Princip do http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu8...&iscqry=&fr=sfp (http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu8XDHlBHU08AkFql87UF?p=gavrilo+pri ncip&ei=UTF-8&iscqry=&fr=sfp) ) or to make some riots witch will be the cause of starting world war or revolution with lot of innocent victims,would you do that and take responsibility for that kind of deicison?
you shouldnt discuss this sort of thing online cause if someone actually goes ahead and does it you will incriminate yourself.

<_<

[hajduk]

Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+November 30, 2007 11:07 pm--> (Ulster Socialist @ November 30, 2007 11:07 pm)
[email protected] 30, 2007 02:41 pm
I discuse with my comraders about what we will do if we got ocasion to make assasination of some imperialist (like Gavrilo Princip do http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu8...&iscqry=&fr=sfp (http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu8XDHlBHU08AkFql87UF?p=gavrilo+pri ncip&ei=UTF-8&iscqry=&fr=sfp) ) or to make some riots witch will be the cause of starting world war or revolution with lot of innocent victims,would you do that and take responsibility for that kind of deicison?
you shouldnt discuss this sort of thing online cause if someone actually goes ahead and does it you will incriminate yourself.

<_< [/b]
dont worry i dont think that there is comraders who are so radical or stupid to try something like that,this is hipotetic question,so what you will do Ulster?

[RedAnarchist]

Originally posted by hajduk+December 01, 2007 01:04 pm--> (hajduk @ December 01, 2007 01:04 pm)
Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 30, 2007 11:07 pm

[email protected] 30, 2007 02:41 pm
I discuse with my comraders about what we will do if we got ocasion to make assasination of some imperialist (like Gavrilo Princip do http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu8...&iscqry=&fr=sfp (http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu8XDHlBHU08AkFql87UF?p=gavrilo+pri ncip&ei=UTF-8&iscqry=&fr=sfp) ) or to make some riots witch will be the cause of starting world war or revolution with lot of innocent victims,would you do that and take responsibility for that kind of deicison?
you shouldnt discuss this sort of thing online cause if someone actually goes ahead and does it you will incriminate yourself.

<_<
dont worry i dont think that there is comraders who are so radical or stupid to try something like that,this is hipotetic question,so what you will do Ulster? [/b]
Do you mean hypothetical?

[hajduk]

Originally posted by Red_Anarchist+December 01, 2007 04:30 pm--> (Red_Anarchist @ December 01, 2007 04:30 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 01:04 pm

Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 30, 2007 11:07 pm

[email protected] 30, 2007 02:41 pm
I discuse with my comraders about what we will do if we got ocasion to make assasination of some imperialist (like Gavrilo Princip do http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu8...&iscqry=&fr=sfp (http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu8XDHlBHU08AkFql87UF?p=gavrilo+pri ncip&ei=UTF-8&iscqry=&fr=sfp) ) or to make some riots witch will be the cause of starting world war or revolution with lot of innocent victims,would you do that and take responsibility for that kind of deicison?
you shouldnt discuss this sort of thing online cause if someone actually goes ahead and does it you will incriminate yourself.

<_<
dont worry i dont think that there is comraders who are so radical or stupid to try something like that,this is hipotetic question,so what you will do Ulster?
Do you mean hypothetical? [/b]
yup

[Easterbrook]

I don&#39;t know about the rest of you, but I&#39;m not assassinating anybody.

War is a terrible thing; killing innocent people is a terrible thing. I&#39;m not a utilitarian here: I can&#39;t justify killing someone b/c I perceive it will bring about some greater good. That&#39;s just wrong, faulty, and horrible logic in my mind.

[hajduk]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 08:10 am
I don&#39;t know about the rest of you, but I&#39;m not assassinating anybody.

War is a terrible thing; killing innocent people is a terrible thing. I&#39;m not a utilitarian here: I can&#39;t justify killing someone b/c I perceive it will bring about some greater good. That&#39;s just wrong, faulty, and horrible logic in my mind.
even if you will have chance to make revolution between workers?

[Easterbrook]

Originally posted by hajduk+December 02, 2007 05:46 pm--> (hajduk &#064; December 02, 2007 05:46 pm)
[email protected] 02, 2007 08:10 am
I don&#39;t know about the rest of you, but I&#39;m not assassinating anybody.

War is a terrible thing; killing innocent people is a terrible thing. I&#39;m not a utilitarian here: I can&#39;t justify killing someone b/c I perceive it will bring about some greater good. That&#39;s just wrong, faulty, and horrible logic in my mind.
even if you will have chance to make revolution between workers? [/b]
I think you hit the nail on the head by calling it a "chance." It&#39;s a means end thing.

What I would like to see is a change in our institutional framework. A move away from private ownership of the means of production to public ownership. That&#39;s the end I am looking for.

The means you are suggesting to get to that end is the assassination of leaders and the killing innocent folks. But there is no way to know that this means will lead to the end I seek. I personally can&#39;t see how knocking off a few imperialists will lead to that end, so the "chance" of this means leading to my end is, imo, low. So given the choice, I&#39;d rather use less homicidal means to reach my end.

[Labor Shall Rule]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 08:10 am
I don&#39;t know about the rest of you, but I&#39;m not assassinating anybody.

War is a terrible thing; killing innocent people is a terrible thing. I&#39;m not a utilitarian here: I can&#39;t justify killing someone b/c I perceive it will bring about some greater good. That&#39;s just wrong, faulty, and horrible logic in my mind.
What if you were attacked?

[Os Cangaceiros]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 08:10 am
I don&#39;t know about the rest of you, but I&#39;m not assassinating anybody.

War is a terrible thing; killing innocent people is a terrible thing. I&#39;m not a utilitarian here: I can&#39;t justify killing someone b/c I perceive it will bring about some greater good. That&#39;s just wrong, faulty, and horrible logic in my mind.
I agree with you.

I only justify violence as a self defense mechanism. Other than that I abhore it.

[Easterbrook]

Originally posted by Labor Shall Rule+December 03, 2007 05:04 am--> (Labor Shall Rule @ December 03, 2007 05:04 am)
[email protected] 02, 2007 08:10 am
I don&#39;t know about the rest of you, but I&#39;m not assassinating anybody.

War is a terrible thing; killing innocent people is a terrible thing. I&#39;m not a utilitarian here: I can&#39;t justify killing someone b/c I perceive it will bring about some greater good. That&#39;s just wrong, faulty, and horrible logic in my mind.
What if you were attacked? [/b]
I would defend myself; I&#39;m no pacifist, I just won&#39;t seek out violence.

[hajduk]

Originally posted by Easterbrook+December 03, 2007 10:18 am--> (Easterbrook @ December 03, 2007 10:18 am)
Originally posted by Labor Shall [email protected] 03, 2007 05:04 am

[email protected] 02, 2007 08:10 am
I don&#39;t know about the rest of you, but I&#39;m not assassinating anybody.

War is a terrible thing; killing innocent people is a terrible thing. I&#39;m not a utilitarian here: I can&#39;t justify killing someone b/c I perceive it will bring about some greater good. That&#39;s just wrong, faulty, and horrible logic in my mind.
What if you were attacked?
I would defend myself; I&#39;m no pacifist, I just won&#39;t seek out violence. [/b]
so that mean you will make assasination like Gavrilo Princip does?

[Easterbrook]

Originally posted by hajduk+December 03, 2007 01:55 pm--> (hajduk @ December 03, 2007 01:55 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 10:18 am

Originally posted by Labor Shall [email protected] 03, 2007 05:04 am

[email protected] 02, 2007 08:10 am
I don&#39;t know about the rest of you, but I&#39;m not assassinating anybody.

War is a terrible thing; killing innocent people is a terrible thing. I&#39;m not a utilitarian here: I can&#39;t justify killing someone b/c I perceive it will bring about some greater good. That&#39;s just wrong, faulty, and horrible logic in my mind.
What if you were attacked?
I would defend myself; I&#39;m no pacifist, I just won&#39;t seek out violence.
so that mean you will make assasination like Gavrilo Princip does? [/b]
Non sequitur.

Gavrilo Princip, that wasn&#39;t self defense. Rather, he and his co-conspirators conspired to kill the Archduke. Sure, it was a stroke of luck for Princip that the Archduke&#39;s car stalled right near him, but there was nothing self defense about that killing.

[hajduk]

Originally posted by Easterbrook+December 04, 2007 04:03 am--> (Easterbrook @ December 04, 2007 04:03 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 01:55 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 10:18 am

Originally posted by Labor Shall [email protected] 03, 2007 05:04 am

[email protected] 02, 2007 08:10 am
I don&#39;t know about the rest of you, but I&#39;m not assassinating anybody.

War is a terrible thing; killing innocent people is a terrible thing. I&#39;m not a utilitarian here: I can&#39;t justify killing someone b/c I perceive it will bring about some greater good. That&#39;s just wrong, faulty, and horrible logic in my mind.
What if you were attacked?
I would defend myself; I&#39;m no pacifist, I just won&#39;t seek out violence.
so that mean you will make assasination like Gavrilo Princip does?
Non sequitur.

Gavrilo Princip, that wasn&#39;t self defense. Rather, he and his co-conspirators conspired to kill the Archduke. Sure, it was a stroke of luck for Princip that the Archduke&#39;s car stalled right near him, but there was nothing self defense about that killing. [/b]
but if it is self defence what you will do?

[bugsy]

Originally posted by Easterbrook+December 03, 2007 10:18 am--> (Easterbrook @ December 03, 2007 10:18 am)
Originally posted by Labor Shall [email protected] 03, 2007 05:04 am

[email protected] 02, 2007 08:10 am
I don&#39;t know about the rest of you, but I&#39;m not assassinating anybody.

War is a terrible thing; killing innocent people is a terrible thing. I&#39;m not a utilitarian here: I can&#39;t justify killing someone b/c I perceive it will bring about some greater good. That&#39;s just wrong, faulty, and horrible logic in my mind.
What if you were attacked?
I would defend myself; I&#39;m no pacifist, I just won&#39;t seek out violence. [/b]
But that&#39;s not the point. Speaking purely hypothetically, of course, if the shite were to hit the fan, you wouldn&#39;t need to seek out violence - it would seek you out.

Make no mistake, should there ever be a revolution to overthrow the Capitalist arseholes, they&#39;ll dump everything they have into the fray. You won&#39;t have the luxury of being able to sit back and defend anything. You&#39;ll have to go on the offensive all the time. It really will be a case of doing unto others before they do unto you.

MsG

[Comrade Rage]

[i]Originally posted by toater+November 30, 2007 08:51 am--> (toater @ November 30, 2007 08:51 am) its a bit niave to suggest that Princip&#39;s actions directly caused ww1. It was an inevitability, if Austria Hungary hadnt demanded action over that, it would have been something else, but I see what you&#39;re getting at mate. [/b]
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd298/COMRADE_CRUM/freakazoid_fail.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' class='attach' />
It is a historical fact that the assassination of Franz Ferdinand was the spark that caused WWI.


bugsy
But that&#39;s not the point. Speaking purely hypothetically, of course, if the shite were to hit the fan, you wouldn&#39;t need to seek out violence - it would seek you out.

Make no mistake, should there ever be a revolution to overthrow the Capitalist arseholes, they&#39;ll dump everything they have into the fray. You won&#39;t have the luxury of being able to sit back and defend anything. You&#39;ll have to go on the offensive all the time. It really will be a case of doing unto others before they do unto you.
Most definitely - they will NOT hold back.

[hajduk]

and also dont forget that independency of Kosovo could be the spark for war beetwen America and Russia

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 08:10 am
I don&#39;t know about the rest of you, but I&#39;m not assassinating anybody.

War is a terrible thing; killing innocent people is a terrible thing. I&#39;m not a utilitarian here: I can&#39;t justify killing someone b/c I perceive it will bring about some greater good. That&#39;s just wrong, faulty, and horrible logic in my mind.
Why not? If the death of one person saves the lives of millions, I would have thought that killing that one person would be the morally correct thing to do.


and also dont forget that independency of Kosovo could be the spark for war beetwen America and Russia

Oh bog off. Kosovo isn&#39;t as important as you like to think it is.

[RedStarOverChina]

If a worker kills his boss or some politician, I would definitely consider it an act of self-defense.

Violence is already forced upon people...the question is, should people hit back?

[pusher robot]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 10:26 pm
If a worker kills his boss or some politician, I would definitely consider it an act of self-defense.

Violence is already forced upon people...the question is, should people hit back?
That&#39;s not self-defense. Please stop mis-using this term.

[RedStarOverChina]

Originally posted by pusher robot+December 05, 2007 07:02 pm--> (pusher robot @ December 05, 2007 07:02 pm)
[email protected] 05, 2007 10:26 pm
If a worker kills his boss or some politician, I would definitely consider it an act of self-defense.

Violence is already forced upon people...the question is, should people hit back?
That&#39;s not self-defense. Please stop mis-using this term. [/b]
Please stop using words altogether. Maybe that way you&#39;ll start to make more sense.

Resistance against political oppression was what brought about capitalism and defeated feudalism. Capitalist rule, like feudal rule, does no last for ever since both are coercion-based rule of the minority. Every time a cop kills a black man in the street, the rest of us has the right to hit back at them.

The first lesson of political science is that states have the "right" to use "legitimate force". They can give themselves all the legitimacy they want, and we still retain the right to strike back, "legitimate" or not.

[pusher robot]

Originally posted by RedStarOverChina+December 06, 2007 01:37 am--> (RedStarOverChina @ December 06, 2007 01:37 am)
Originally posted by pusher [email protected] 05, 2007 07:02 pm

[email protected] 05, 2007 10:26 pm
If a worker kills his boss or some politician, I would definitely consider it an act of self-defense.

Violence is already forced upon people...the question is, should people hit back?
That&#39;s not self-defense. Please stop mis-using this term.
Please stop using words altogether. Maybe that way you&#39;ll start to make more sense.

Resistance against political oppression was what brought about capitalism and defeated feudalism. Capitalist rule, like feudal rule, does no last for ever since both are coercion-based rule of the minority. Every time a cop kills a black man in the street, the rest of us has the right to hit back at them.

The first lesson of political science is that states have the "right" to use "legitimate force". They can give themselves all the legitimacy they want, and we still retain the right to strike back, "legitimate" or not. [/b]
Then call it what it is: armed conflict, defensive war, retaliatory strikes, whatever. "Self-defense" means defending oneself against imminent bodily harm or death. There&#39;s no need other than sophistry to use it in this context.

[hajduk]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 09:32 pm



[QUOTE]and also dont forget that independency of Kosovo could be the spark for war beetwen America and Russia

Oh bog off. Kosovo isn&#39;t as important as you like to think it is.
well then why Kostunica says that peace on Balkan depend of what America will do about Kosovo?

[hajduk]

Originally posted by pusher robot+December 06, 2007 02:07 am--> (pusher robot @ December 06, 2007 02:07 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 01:37 am

Originally posted by pusher [email protected] 05, 2007 07:02 pm

[email protected] 05, 2007 10:26 pm
If a worker kills his boss or some politician, I would definitely consider it an act of self-defense.

Violence is already forced upon people...the question is, should people hit back?
That&#39;s not self-defense. Please stop mis-using this term.
Please stop using words altogether. Maybe that way you&#39;ll start to make more sense.

Resistance against political oppression was what brought about capitalism and defeated feudalism. Capitalist rule, like feudal rule, does no last for ever since both are coercion-based rule of the minority. Every time a cop kills a black man in the street, the rest of us has the right to hit back at them.

The first lesson of political science is that states have the "right" to use "legitimate force". They can give themselves all the legitimacy they want, and we still retain the right to strike back, "legitimate" or not.
Then call it what it is: armed conflict, defensive war, retaliatory strikes, whatever. "Self-defense" means defending oneself against imminent bodily harm or death. There&#39;s no need other than sophistry to use it in this context. [/b]
so in that manner you will assasinate the opressor and make revolution or war with lot of innocent victims?

[pusher robot]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 01:59 pm
so in that manner you will assasinate the opressor and make revolution or war with lot of innocent victims?
Sure, why not?

[hajduk]

Originally posted by pusher robot+December 06, 2007 02:46 pm--> (pusher robot @ December 06, 2007 02:46 pm)
[email protected] 06, 2007 01:59 pm
so in that manner you will assasinate the opressor and make revolution or war with lot of innocent victims?
Sure, why not? [/b]
and you will have enough strenght to take responsibility for that?

[hajduk]

Originally posted by STJ+December 06, 2007 03:13 pm--> (STJ @ December 06, 2007 03:13 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 09:32 pm

[email protected] 02, 2007 08:10 am
I don&#39;t know about the rest of you, but I&#39;m not assassinating anybody.

War is a terrible thing; killing innocent people is a terrible thing. I&#39;m not a utilitarian here: I can&#39;t justify killing someone b/c I perceive it will bring about some greater good. That&#39;s just wrong, faulty, and horrible logic in my mind.
Why not? If the death of one person saves the lives of millions, I would have thought that killing that one person would be the morally correct thing to do.


and also dont forget that independency of Kosovo could be the spark for war beetwen America and Russia

Oh bog off. Kosovo isn&#39;t as important as you like to think it is.
Hell ya if i had a chance to shoot a nut job like Hitler. I am pulling the trigger. [/b]
and make the world war III?

[pusher robot]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 04:25 pm
and make the world war III?
Am I the only one who imagines hajduk sounding like Borat?

[hajduk]

Originally posted by STJ+December 06, 2007 06:19 pm--> (STJ @ December 06, 2007 06:19 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 04:25 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 03:13 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 09:32 pm

[email protected] 02, 2007 08:10 am
I don&#39;t know about the rest of you, but I&#39;m not assassinating anybody.

War is a terrible thing; killing innocent people is a terrible thing. I&#39;m not a utilitarian here: I can&#39;t justify killing someone b/c I perceive it will bring about some greater good. That&#39;s just wrong, faulty, and horrible logic in my mind.
Why not? If the death of one person saves the lives of millions, I would have thought that killing that one person would be the morally correct thing to do.


and also dont forget that independency of Kosovo could be the spark for war beetwen America and Russia

Oh bog off. Kosovo isn&#39;t as important as you like to think it is.
Hell ya if i had a chance to shoot a nut job like Hitler. I am pulling the trigger.
and make the world war III?
To me there are things worth fighting and dying for. Even if means setting off a larger war. [/b]
but that war could be the last one if you know what i mean

[hajduk]

Originally posted by STJ+December 07, 2007 09:59 pm--> (STJ @ December 07, 2007 09:59 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 01:22 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 06:19 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 04:25 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 03:13 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 09:32 pm

[email protected] 02, 2007 08:10 am
I don&#39;t know about the rest of you, but I&#39;m not assassinating anybody.

War is a terrible thing; killing innocent people is a terrible thing. I&#39;m not a utilitarian here: I can&#39;t justify killing someone b/c I perceive it will bring about some greater good. That&#39;s just wrong, faulty, and horrible logic in my mind.
Why not? If the death of one person saves the lives of millions, I would have thought that killing that one person would be the morally correct thing to do.


and also dont forget that independency of Kosovo could be the spark for war beetwen America and Russia

Oh bog off. Kosovo isn&#39;t as important as you like to think it is.
Hell ya if i had a chance to shoot a nut job like Hitler. I am pulling the trigger.
and make the world war III?
To me there are things worth fighting and dying for. Even if means setting off a larger war.
but that war could be the last one if you know what i mean
To me it depends. Going to war over Kosovo not a chance. Going to war with the fascist yes. [/b]
fascism has a lot of different faces

[hajduk]

so how many of you commit assasination for revolution,even if that make global war?

[TheDifferenceEngine]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 07:34 pm
so how many of you commit assasination for revolution,even if that make global war?
Your logic is flawed.

[hajduk]

Originally posted by TheDifferenceEngine+December 24, 2007 07:55 pm--> (TheDifferenceEngine @ December 24, 2007 07:55 pm)
[email protected] 24, 2007 07:34 pm
so how many of you commit assasination for revolution,even if that make global war?
Your logic is flawed. [/b]
what do you mean?

[hajduk]

so according what happened to Benazhir Bhutto,do you mean that her assasination will be war stressor for clash in Pakistan?