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AGITprop
29th November 2007, 23:10
i appologize for my ignorance, but could someone give me a brief explanation of what the history between israel and palestine is? and what are your opninons, i hate to ask this cuz i feel stupid but de realy like to know without sifting through superluous information online. thanx anone who contributes.

PS should this be in learning?

bugsy
29th November 2007, 23:30
Long story short. The Jews wanted somewhere to go after they'd been murdered in their millions by Hitler and the rest of his lunatics. They started to gyrate towards Palestine, viewing it as their Promised Land. The Brits, who had the Mandate over Palestine just after WWII, did everything they could to stop them, even interning them on Cyprus.

Then the UN carved Palestine up and gave the Jews a goodly portion, but they decided they wanted the lot. They then demonstrated that the lessons learned from Adolf hadn't been lost on them and proceeded to treat the Palestinians in much the same way, even though the Brits actually handed the country back to the Palestinians (including all the McTaggart forts), so as to curry favour with other Arab nations and secure supplies of oil.

Then there were a couple of nasty wars with their neighbours, which they won with the help of Septic support - in spite of topping a load of Septic Andrew in the Med.

And it's been fun and games ever since.

How about that for starters? :D :D :D

MsG

AGITprop
29th November 2007, 23:33
Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 11:29 pm
Long story short. The Jews wanted somewhere to go after they'd been murdered in their millions by Hitler and the rest of his lunatics. They started to gyrate towards Palestine, viewing it as their Promised Land. The Brits, who had the Mandate over Palestine just after WWII, did everything they could to stop them, even interning them on Cyprus.

Then the UN carved Palestine up and gave the Jews a goodly portion, but they decided they wanted the lot. They then demonstrated that the lessons learned from Adolf hadn't been lost on them and proceeded to treat the Palestinians in much the same way, even though the Brits actually handed the country back to the Palestinians (including all the McTaggart forts), so as to curry favour with other Arab nations and secure supplies of oil.

Then there were a couple of nasty wars with their neighbours, which they won with the help of Septic support - in spite of topping a load of Septic Andrew in the Med.

And it's been fun and games ever since.

How about that for starters? :D :D :D

MsG
good so far.... so.maybe i shou;d start this convo in oppoing ideologies...but do you think it is israels or plestines territory?

bugsy
29th November 2007, 23:41
The Israelis maintain that it's their destiny to rule over the whole country (and actually a whole lot more besides). It's supposed to be in the bible. The problem is, as I see it, that the Israelites were only one of hundreds of tribes living in the area at the time. So working on the same basis, any one of the other tribes could lay claim to their little bit of land with just as much validity as the Israelis.

The situation is further exacerbated by the unstinting support given to Israel by the Jewish faction in America and the international bankers who bankroll everything anyway. They're a bit dogmatic about the whole thing, however, as long as they perceive some form of advantage in supporting Israel in its belligerent and bullying attitude, there won't be much movement on the issue. Even this latest little farcical round of talks is going to present the Palestinians with conditions that they'll never accept. And that's the whole idea. Then the Israelis can carry on with their process of apartheid and maintain that the Palestinians are intransigent. Sly fuckers, them Israelis.

MsG

I'd Rather Be Drinking
29th November 2007, 23:42
Check out this article for more background:

http://libcom.org/library/aufheben-behind-...reason-pamphlet (http://libcom.org/library/aufheben-behind-the-twenty-first-century-intifada-treason-pamphlet)

AGITprop
29th November 2007, 23:46
in m opinion...and you could all disagree..but because the palestinians were there before the jews and the jews were given the land by the international community...becase there is this obvious problem..thewy should just get over themslves and share the land. regardless if anyone thinks they should have al the ladn to themselves.just get along people.okay this probably isnt the solutio but im only speculating....i need more opininons

bugsy
29th November 2007, 23:53
I agree with you totally, Ender, that'd solve all the problems in one fell swoop. Complications arise because a couple of generations of Israelis have been bought up to regard the Palestinians as scum. And those poor people suffer a double-whammy because they're regarded as the pikeys of the Arab world - much the same as Chechens are regarded in Russia - which is why no other Arab states do much to help them.

It really is worthwhile to read up on this, but also to see it from both points of view. Notwithstanding that the Israelis, as I've already mentioned, tend to be a tad dogmatic in their belief that it's their destiny to occupy the whole country.

MsG

S.O.I
30th November 2007, 11:04
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Palestinian_conflict

Reuben
30th November 2007, 11:39
Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 11:40 pm


The situation is further exacerbated by the unstinting support given to Israel by the Jewish faction in America and the international bankers who bankroll everything anyway.
like naom chomsky?

to which international bankers are you referring?

bugsy
30th November 2007, 18:19
to which international bankers are you referring?

Well, there's Tom, Angus, Morry, Tim, Silly, Tab, Tootie, Bumsa, Reeps, Bergy, Hash, Josh, to name but a few.

Of course, you could pursue this and end up with egg on your face!

MsG

Reuben
30th November 2007, 18:34
I can't quite see what you are getting at here... I would have thought it was obvious that I was not asking for a list of names but at least some kind of specific information to back up your claims which I do not necessarily deem false.

I also find your discussion of the 'jewish faction' dubious to say the least.

Revolution Until Victory
30th November 2007, 20:11
Here is a brief summary of the situation:

The earliest known inhabitants of the land could arguablly be considred the Caananites. A semetic groups that emmigrated from the Arabian Peninsula. After that, the Hebrew tribes invaded the land of Canaan and took over some of it. Latter, they were expelled and the land got conqured by the Romans. After the Romans, the Arabs (who trace thier ancestory to the Canaanites) conqured it from the Romans and from then on, it was a predomanatly Arab land with an Arab population, even though for a while they were under Ottman colonization. All in all, Palestine have been conqured by many various peoples and tribes. In the late 19th centurey political Zionism emerged along with the wave of racist, capitalist, European imperilaism. Zionism, a raicst, 19th century capitalist-imperilaist movment sought different allies, until it finally settled with the British imperilaists, who sponsered thier movment. In 1947, the imperialists were able to influence the UN and devide Palestine, into 2 parts: 55% to the Zionist colonizers and the rest to the natives (I will demonstrate how unjust this was latter in the post). Around the time of the partition resolution by the UN and after it, almost 800,000 Palestinian Arabs were expelled by the Zionists, and almost 500 villages destroyed and ethnicly cleansed. At first, the Palestinians relied on the Arab states and thier conventional armies to defeat the Zionist settler-colony. However, the 1967 agression proved thier illousion and the futility of imperialist-agent regimes and thier classic armies. Thus in 1958 Palestinian students in Kuwait established the first Palestinian liberation movment, called the Palestinian National Liberation Movment, Al Fatah, a secular, nationalist, and moderate-leftist movment for the liberaiton fo Palestine. In 1964 the PLO was established by the Arab regimes to liberate Palestine, yet, it was controlled by them and wasn't independent. In January, 1, 1965 AL Fatah launched the modern, Palestinian armed revolution. In December, 11, 1967, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the Palestinian wing of the socialist Arab Nationalist Movment (ANM), was established and about a year later, adopted Marxism-leninsm, heavely effected by Maoism. In 1968, a faction split form the PFLP led by Ahmad Jibril and formed the Marxist Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC) which concentrated more on armed struggle. In 1969, another faction split form the PFLP led by Naif Hawatmeh and formed the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palesitne (DFLP) and as opposed to the PFLP-GC, concentrated more on revolutionary leftist theory rather than armed struggle. The Palestinian revolution's first major setback was in 1970 when the collaborater king of Jordan fought the Palestinian guerrillas in Jordan and the guerillas lost thier bases for armed struggle in Jordan as a result. The second major setback was the 1982 war in Lebanon in which the guerrillas lost thier last external base for armed struggle. In 1988, the PLO compromised with colonialism and gave the Zionists the right to colonize Palestine. In 1993 the Oslo accords were signed, and the "peace process" started. In September 2000, the Palestinian armed revolution was re-launched, this time, from inside Palestine. The Islamic Resistance Movment, Hamas, was formed in 1987 by Ahmad Yassin, after being Zionist agents through out the early 80's, and around the same time, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad was formed by Ahmad Shiqaqy.


but do you think it is israels or plestines territory?

From a legal viewpoint, it belongs to the Palestinian Arabs (of course, without mentioning any relegious cliams or "who came first").

Following are the evidence:

- The CCP Refugee Office (a UN offical commitee) estimated that although only a little more than a quarter was considered cultivable, more than 80 percent of Israel's total area of 20,850 km.sq. represented land abandoned by the Arab refugees. Three-quarters of the former Arab land was sub-marginal land or semi-desert in the Negeb.
(The Establishment of the State of Israel as a Jewish State from Chapter I in: Israel –An Apartheid State, by Uri Davis, Zed Books, London and New Jersey, 1987)

- According to the Survey of Palestine prepared by the UN prior to the 1947 partition, P.566, over 94% of Palestine's total area belonged to Palestinians, and the zionists own 5.8%.

- Subcommittee 2 of the Ad Hoc Committee on the Palestine Question stated in its report to the United Nations General Assembly the following:

Closely connected with the distribution of population is the factor of land ownership in the proposed Jewish State. The bulk of the land in the Arab State, as well as in the proposed Jewish State, is owned and possessed by Arabs. This is clear from the following statistics furnished to the Sub-Committee by the United Kingdom representative, showing the respective percentages of Arab and Jewish ownership of land in the various sub-districts of Palestine.
(Official Records of the Second Session of the General Assembly Ad Hoc Committee on the Palestine Question, Summary Records of Meetings, 25 September-25 November, 1947, pp. 292-293.)

So according to the UN, around 94% of the total area of Palestine was Arab owned, while the Zionists colonizers were only able to own 5.8%.

bugsy
30th November 2007, 20:13
State of play on this thread to date: Ender put in a question about the position of the Israelis and the Palestinians. I gave her/him my personal summary. S/he then asked further questions and muted a possible (if essentially naďve) solution. At this point the thit plockens!

Yon “Reuben” dived in with her/his ostensible show-stoppers; “Noam Chiomsky” and “which international bankers (which actually rhymes with “wankers”, by the way) did I mean”. All of them! All international bankers. Is this an attempt at pulling my fuckin’ pisser?

Yon “Reuben” deigned to continue with: “I also find your discussion of the 'Jewish faction' dubious to say the least”. That’s novel indeed. I’d seriously defy anyone to unearth any evidence at all of a discussion on this thread about any “Jewish faction” sparked by me.

Summary: there are always going to be twats who want to be measured by their twatiness, as there are always going to be other twats who stop them destroying mankind.

MsG

AGITprop
30th November 2007, 20:47
how interesting...i seem to understand better. so...although many may not accept this....i elievethe land belongs to the people of Palestine.

Reuben
30th November 2007, 21:06
Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 08:12 pm
I’d seriously defy anyone to unearth any evidence at all of a discussion on this thread about any “Jewish faction” sparked by me.

I did not say you sparked a discussion of the jewish faction. I said you discussed the 'jewish faction' I find your use of the term dubious. As for evidence: :The situation is further exacerbated by the unstinting support given to Israel by the Jewish faction in America"

Reuben
30th November 2007, 21:13
PS any reason why you keep putting my name in quote marks.

AGITprop
30th November 2007, 22:45
Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 09:12 pm
PS any reason why you keep putting my name in quote marks.
its a eupamism for how much he wants to hug you

Reuben
30th November 2007, 23:59
hahahaha

RedKnight
1st December 2007, 00:51
Originally posted by Revolution Until [email protected] 30, 2007 08:10 pm
Here is a brief summary of the situation:

The earliest known inhabitants of the land could arguablly be considred the Caananites. A semetic groups that emmigrated from the Arabian Peninsula. After that, the Hebrew tribes invaded the land of Canaan and took over some of it. Latter, they were expelled and the land got conqured by the Romans. After the Romans, the Arabs (who trace thier ancestory to the Canaanites) conqured it from the Romans and from then on, it was a predomanatly Arab land with an Arab population, even though for a while they were under Ottman colonization. All in all, Palestine have been conqured by many various peoples and tribes. In the late 19th centurey political Zionism emerged along with the wave of racist, capitalist, European imperilaism. Zionism, a raicst, 19th century capitalist-imperilaist movment sought different allies, until it finally settled with the British imperilaists, who sponsered thier movment. In 1947, the imperialists were able to influence the UN and devide Palestine, into 2 parts: 55% to the Zionist colonizers and the rest to the natives (I will demonstrate how unjust this was latter in the post). Around the time of the partition resolution by the UN and after it, almost 800,000 Palestinian Arabs were expelled by the Zionists, and almost 500 villages destroyed and ethnicly cleansed. At first, the Palestinians relied on the Arab states and thier conventional armies to defeat the Zionist settler-colony. However, the 1967 agression proved thier illousion and the futility of imperialist-agent regimes and thier classic armies. Thus in 1958 Palestinian students in Kuwait established the first Palestinian liberation movment, called the Palestinian National Liberation Movment, Al Fatah, a secular, nationalist, and moderate-leftist movment for the liberaiton fo Palestine. In 1964 the PLO was established by the Arab regimes to liberate Palestine, yet, it was controlled by them and wasn't independent. In January, 1, 1965 AL Fatah launched the modern, Palestinian armed revolution. In December, 11, 1967, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the Palestinian wing of the socialist Arab Nationalist Movment (ANM), was established and about a year later, adopted Marxism-leninsm, heavely effected by Maoism. In 1968, a faction split form the PFLP led by Ahmad Jibril and formed the Marxist Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC) which concentrated more on armed struggle. In 1969, another faction split form the PFLP led by Naif Hawatmeh and formed the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palesitne (DFLP) and as opposed to the PFLP-GC, concentrated more on revolutionary leftist theory rather than armed struggle. The Palestinian revolution's first major setback was in 1970 when the collaborater king of Jordan fought the Palestinian guerrillas in Jordan and the guerillas lost thier bases for armed struggle in Jordan as a result. The second major setback was the 1982 war in Lebanon in which the guerrillas lost thier last external base for armed struggle. In 1988, the PLO compromised with colonialism and gave the Zionists the right to colonize Palestine. In 1993 the Oslo accords were signed, and the "peace process" started. In September 2000, the Palestinian armed revolution was re-launched, this time, from inside Palestine. The Islamic Resistance Movment, Hamas, was formed in 1987 by Ahmad Yassin, after being Zionist agents through out the early 80's, and around the same time, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad was formed by Ahmad Shiqaqy.


but do you think it is israels or plestines territory?

From a legal viewpoint, it belongs to the Palestinian Arabs (of course, without mentioning any relegious cliams or "who came first").

Following are the evidence:

- The CCP Refugee Office (a UN offical commitee) estimated that although only a little more than a quarter was considered cultivable, more than 80 percent of Israel's total area of 20,850 km.sq. represented land abandoned by the Arab refugees. Three-quarters of the former Arab land was sub-marginal land or semi-desert in the Negeb.
(The Establishment of the State of Israel as a Jewish State from Chapter I in: Israel –An Apartheid State, by Uri Davis, Zed Books, London and New Jersey, 1987)

- According to the Survey of Palestine prepared by the UN prior to the 1947 partition, P.566, over 94% of Palestine's total area belonged to Palestinians, and the zionists own 5.8%.

- Subcommittee 2 of the Ad Hoc Committee on the Palestine Question stated in its report to the United Nations General Assembly the following:

Closely connected with the distribution of population is the factor of land ownership in the proposed Jewish State. The bulk of the land in the Arab State, as well as in the proposed Jewish State, is owned and possessed by Arabs. This is clear from the following statistics furnished to the Sub-Committee by the United Kingdom representative, showing the respective percentages of Arab and Jewish ownership of land in the various sub-districts of Palestine.
(Official Records of the Second Session of the General Assembly Ad Hoc Committee on the Palestine Question, Summary Records of Meetings, 25 September-25 November, 1947, pp. 292-293.)

So according to the UN, around 94% of the total area of Palestine was Arab owned, while the Zionists colonizers were only able to own 5.8%.
If zionism was from the begining a racist, capitalist, movement, what do you make of Labor zionism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Zionism)? Here was the partion plan, which the U.N. passed in 1947. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nation...n_for_Palestine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine)

Reuben
1st December 2007, 01:06
I believe my views on labour zionism are encapsulated by the quote "socialism for ejws only isnt socialism"

What labour zionism does show is that zionism has alwasy been a very multifraceted movement.

Revolution Until Victory
1st December 2007, 01:08
If zionism was from the begining a racist, capitalist, movement, what do you make of Labor zionism?

what do I make of it?

It was racist and imperialist. Just coz they add the word "worker" doesn't make them socialist or progressive. many colonizers in many other colonial experiences were workers, in fact, many times the majority. The only difference is that those other colonizers (such as the case in North America) weren't ridiculous and realized they were colonizers, while the Zionist imperilaists like to be funny and claim to be "leftist"