Who killed Chavez?

[AGITprop]

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez believes CNN is trying to incite his murder.
Yesterday during a news broadcast, a picture of Chavez was shown with the title
"Who killed him?". The anchor told the team to take down the image moments after it was put up saying it was a mistake. Apparently the team confused the picture of Chavez with a story about a dead footbal star.

What do you think?
This is kind of sketchy considering Chavez's announcement the other day.
Do news teams often make these kinds of mistakes?

[Forward Union]

I knew I shouldn't have told CNN in advance of my plans.

Anyway, is there any evidence of this, sounds bullshit to me.

[AGITprop]

Originally posted by William [email protected] 28, 2007 06:32 pm
I knew I shouldn't have told CNN in advance of my plans.

Anyway, is there any evidence of this, sounds bullshit to me.
te evidence is the thousands f people that saw this on TV
if chavez saw it
EVERyone saw it

but i see no reason why chavez would invent this story f there was no concrete proof, unless ofcourse he uses the excuse that CNN destroyed the evidence.

[lvleph]

Well, that football player was shot and they don't know who did it, so...

[AGITprop]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2007 06:40 pm
Well, that football player was shot and they don't know who did it, so...
<_< ...not the point..lol

my question is do you think CNN is possibly trying to incie his muder?

[spartan]

Say Ender do you have a source for this story?

Try and give us a link to a website running this story.

[AGITprop]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2007 06:47 pm
Say Ender do you have a source for this story?

Try and give us a link to a website running this story.
Here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6699383.stm

BTW i just saw this part about the protests

[Herman]

You can watch a video (if you know Spanish) here (http://www.aporrea.org/medios/n105431.html), where they show the fragment with the "Who killed Chavez" thing.

[AGITprop]

holy shit..this a much iger story than i thought t was when i read about it this morning. i didnt know he closed down a tv station.

So? limiting freedom of speech? pssibly atempt to undermine his government. I wouldnt listen to BBC much though...

[spartan]

Thanx for the link Ender.

Chavez is fucking great&#33;

Dont listen to these mainstream media scare stories Ender as they are trying there best to make Socialism appear undesirable to the workers (Who make up the majority of the viewers of these news channels) so that they dont get any "funny" ideas in there heads.

[AGITprop]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2007 06:53 pm
Thanx for the link Ender.

Chavez is fucking great&#33;

Dont listen to these mainstream media scare stories Ender as they are trying there best to make Socialism appear undesirable to the workers (Who make up the majority of the viewers of these news channels) so that they dont get any "funny" ideas in there heads.
yes you are right spartan
but in the eyes of america, chavez is infringing on human rights because of these right-wing corporate controled media stations.

But yea chavez is a fucking beast. im very happy to see what hes going to try to do in venezuela.

[lvleph]

Originally posted by Ender+November 28, 2007 01:41 pm--> (Ender &#064; November 28, 2007 01:41 pm)
[email protected] 28, 2007 06:40 pm
Well, that football player was shot and they don&#39;t know who did it, so...
<_< ...not the point..lol

my question is do you think CNN is possibly trying to incie his muder? [/b]
And my point was, I don&#39;t think so.

But then the story you linked to is completely different than the one you told.

[AGITprop]

not really, the one i old was what i read. then someone asked for alink and i looked it up and i got another link which was a much bigger story.

[Colonello Buendia]

However great he is, CHavez does have a tendency to hatch up such stories. I don&#39;t think the CNN was inciting murder but then again the cappies aren&#39;t exactly going to let a self proclaimed Trotskyist run a country.......... <_<

[AGITprop]

Originally posted by Dr [email protected] 28, 2007 08:42 pm
However great he is, CHavez does have a tendency to hatch up such stories. I don&#39;t think the CNN was inciting murder but then again the cappies aren&#39;t exactly going to let a self proclaimed Trotskyist run a country.......... <_<
your right...but i love how it hurts those dirty capitalists to see that socialism might actually succeed this time&#33;
once venezuala does it, nuthing is stopping the american workers from seeing the benefits other than CNN ofcourse....lol

[bezdomni]

There is a lot of crap in this thread.

First off, if this is actually true...it could be that there was a plan to assassinate Chavez. Something similar happened back in 2000 (the coup was reported on CNN before it actually happened, if I recall.

I don&#39;t think the U.S. understands the role Chavez plays in actually strengthening their grip over the Venezuelan proletariat.


but then again the cappies aren&#39;t exactly going to let a self proclaimed Trotskyist run a country

Chavez has proclaimed himself a lot of things. Also, if you think what is happening in Venezuela is "a self proclaimed Trotskyist is running a country" - then why the fuck do you support that? Socialism isn&#39;t where you have a Trotskyist or a group of Trotskyists run a country, it&#39;s where the masses run the country.

Although, in practice, that&#39;s probably what Trotskyism would lead to (if it could actually make a revolution) - a group of Trots running a country rather than the masses.


i didnt know he closed down a tv station.

He didn&#39;t "close down a TV station"; he refused to renew the license of a public television station run by CIA funded reactionaries (that actually played a major role in the coup of 2000).

I&#39;m definitely a critic of Chavez, but that was totally legit.

[Random Precision]

Chavez has proclaimed himself a lot of things. Also, if you think what is happening in Venezuela is "a self proclaimed Trotskyist is running a country" - then why the fuck do you support that? Socialism isn&#39;t where you have a Trotskyist or a group of Trotskyists run a country, it&#39;s where the masses run the country.

Although, in practice, that&#39;s probably what Trotskyism would lead to (if it could actually make a revolution) - a group of Trots running a country rather than the masses.

Completely unlike Maoists in, well, every place they&#39;ve made a "revolution" in, hm?

Don&#39;t bother responding to that, actually. :)

[AGITprop]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2007 10:14 pm
There is a lot of crap in this thread.

First off, if this is actually true...it could be that there was a plan to assassinate Chavez. Something similar happened back in 2000 (the coup was reported on CNN before it actually happened, if I recall.

I don&#39;t think the U.S. understands the role Chavez plays in actually strengthening their grip over the Venezuelan proletariat.


but then again the cappies aren&#39;t exactly going to let a self proclaimed Trotskyist run a country

Chavez has proclaimed himself a lot of things. Also, if you think what is happening in Venezuela is "a self proclaimed Trotskyist is running a country" - then why the fuck do you support that? Socialism isn&#39;t where you have a Trotskyist or a group of Trotskyists run a country, it&#39;s where the masses run the country.

Although, in practice, that&#39;s probably what Trotskyism would lead to (if it could actually make a revolution) - a group of Trots running a country rather than the masses.


i didnt know he closed down a tv station.

He didn&#39;t "close down a TV station"; he refused to renew the license of a public television station run by CIA funded reactionaries (that actually played a major role in the coup of 2000).

I&#39;m definitely a critic of Chavez, but that was totally legit.
we actually had a whole conversation about chavez running the country yesterday and how it may not be the right choice for a government to bring the country to socialism. the workers ofcourse have to control ther workplaces and chavez is planning on doing this. there will be a referndum on sunday to vote to change the constitution. I have a problem with marxists who believe that the wrking class and only the working class can cause the change toawrds socialism. i do believe that it is inevitable BUT if chaez wants to take the country there and then make sure the gov withers away than so bit. he has openly said he waned to abolish the " Bourgeois state"

[bezdomni]

Don&#39;t bother responding to that, actually. smile.gif

Why? So you don&#39;t have to defend your bullshit?


Completely unlike Maoists in, well, every place they&#39;ve made a "revolution" in, hm?

You mean China? (I can&#39;t think of any other places where there has been a successful Maoist revolution, although there were People&#39;s Wars in several countries...they haven&#39;t actually overthrown capitalist-imperialism yet).

And no, socialist China was not "run by Maoists" - it was run by the masses of people and led by the proletariat. I don&#39;t understand what you&#39;re getting at (presumably you don&#39;t either, which is why you didn&#39;t want me to respond in the first place).


the workers ofcourse have to control ther workplaces and chavez is planning on doing this.

That is something Chavez cannot do. He can&#39;t say "hey workers, run the factories" and then the workers will just start running the factories. That isn&#39;t how it works.

The proletariat has the wrestle capital out of the hands of the bourgeoisie - it requires a communist revolution, the establishment of a socialist state and some time. The proletariat won&#39;t control the factories 100% by themselves over night...the point of "early socialism" is to break down the inequalities between laborers and managers, and ultimately to abolish the division of labor.


I have a problem with marxists who believe that the wrking class and only the working class can cause the change toawrds socialism.

Only a revolution led by the proletariat can create socialism, but that doesn&#39;t mean only the working class will be involved in this revolution or that only workers will have a role in the socialist state. Anybody who would make that claim severely misunderstands Marx and Lenin.

The truth is, the socialist state will need people from the middle strata (doctors, scientists, teachers...even managers) - but instead of consolidating the inequalities between the professionals in the middle strata and the proletariat, the socialist state breaks them down by slowly abolishing the division of labor (the proletariat learns to do different tasks, rather than doing the same one all day) and through making education a priority (so people who have previously been unable to learn to read can become doctors or teachers).


he has openly said he waned to abolish the " Bourgeois state"

He can say what he likes, but there is not a communist revolution in Venezuela and there will not be one as long as people hold the illusion that Chavez can lead the masses to socialism.

There was a really good article in Revolution Newspaper about this - Venezuela: Hugo Chavez has an Oil Strategy...but can this Lead to Liberation? (http://rwor.org/a/094/chavez-en.html)

[Random Precision]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2007 10:39 pm

Don&#39;t bother responding to that, actually. smile.gif

Why? So you don&#39;t have to defend your bullshit?


Completely unlike Maoists in, well, every place they&#39;ve made a "revolution" in, hm?

You mean China? (I can&#39;t think of any other places where there has been a successful Maoist revolution, although there were People&#39;s Wars in several countries...they haven&#39;t actually overthrown capitalist-imperialism yet).
More like not getting the thread off-topic. Start another one on Maoism specifically and I&#39;ll be there in a second.

[AGITprop]

ofcourse you are correct. chavezcannot force workers to st up coucils but this is what they want. and the workers do need to have a revolution to esablish socialism. but i havre no problem with chavez leading the way for a ppulation who openly supports the idea of socialism.

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by Hope Lies in the Proles+November 28, 2007 10:43 pm--> (Hope Lies in the Proles @ November 28, 2007 10:43 pm)
[email protected] 28, 2007 10:39 pm

Don&#39;t bother responding to that, actually. smile.gif

Why? So you don&#39;t have to defend your bullshit?


Completely unlike Maoists in, well, every place they&#39;ve made a "revolution" in, hm?

You mean China? (I can&#39;t think of any other places where there has been a successful Maoist revolution, although there were People&#39;s Wars in several countries...they haven&#39;t actually overthrown capitalist-imperialism yet).
More like not getting the thread off-topic. Start another one on Maoism specifically and I&#39;ll be there in a second. [/b]
You already squirmed yourself out of it.

Maoism (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=73251&st=0&#entry1292417783)

[spartan]

That is something Chavez cannot do. He can&#39;t say "hey workers, run the factories" and then the workers will just start running the factories. That isn&#39;t how it works.

The proletariat has the wrestle capital out of the hands of the bourgeoisie - it requires a communist revolution, the establishment of a socialist state and some time. The proletariat won&#39;t control the factories 100% by themselves over night...the point of "early socialism" is to break down the inequalities between laborers and managers, and ultimately to abolish the division of labor.
Chavez can help in making the change over to Socialism as he himself is a Proletariat.

He is already suffocating the Bourgeoisie backed oppossition into submission and leftists from all over the world attacking policies of his, which are wanted by the majority of Proletarian Venezuelans, isnt helping this move over to a Socialist society one bit.

Indeed it is something that the Bourgeoisie oppossition in Venezuela could use against Chavez who is a legitimate Socialist trying his best to create a Socialist society in Venezuela.

Venezuela is a country rich in oil and yet the majority of its people are poor due to the fact that the only people making money off of Venezuelas oil, before Chavez was elected President, were a minority of Venezuelan Bourgeoisie, the same people who now lead the oppossition against Chavez because he took away most of their former power and influence, and the American Bourgeoisie who are now calling Chavez a dictator and a tyrant even though he was elected by a clear majority of the Venezuelan people in a fair election with no instances of corruption

Not only that but he was ousted from power in an American backed coup which was eventually defeated by the Venezuelan people who demamnded that the men behind the coup return Chavez to power and he has also since won a referendum, which he didnt even have to allow, to see whether or not the people wanted him to stay in power or not because the Bourgeoisie wanted it.

[AGITprop]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2007 11:03 pm

That is something Chavez cannot do. He can&#39;t say "hey workers, run the factories" and then the workers will just start running the factories. That isn&#39;t how it works.

The proletariat has the wrestle capital out of the hands of the bourgeoisie - it requires a communist revolution, the establishment of a socialist state and some time. The proletariat won&#39;t control the factories 100% by themselves over night...the point of "early socialism" is to break down the inequalities between laborers and managers, and ultimately to abolish the division of labor.
Chavez can help in making the change over to Socialism as he himself is a Proletariat.

He is already suffocating the Bourgeoisie backed oppossition into submission and leftists from all over the world attacking policies of his, which are wanted by the majority of Proletarian Venezuelans, isnt helping this move over to a Socialist society one bit.

Indeed it is something that the Bourgeoisie oppossition in Venezuela could use against Chavez who is a legitimate Socialist trying his best to create a Socialist society.
i agree with spartan.
there is no reason to discredit chavez and his attempts towards socialism.

[Organic Revolution]

Originally posted by Ender+November 28, 2007 05:06 pm--> (Ender @ November 28, 2007 05:06 pm)
[email protected] 28, 2007 11:03 pm

That is something Chavez cannot do. He can&#39;t say "hey workers, run the factories" and then the workers will just start running the factories. That isn&#39;t how it works.

The proletariat has the wrestle capital out of the hands of the bourgeoisie - it requires a communist revolution, the establishment of a socialist state and some time. The proletariat won&#39;t control the factories 100% by themselves over night...the point of "early socialism" is to break down the inequalities between laborers and managers, and ultimately to abolish the division of labor.
Chavez can help in making the change over to Socialism as he himself is a Proletariat.

He is already suffocating the Bourgeoisie backed oppossition into submission and leftists from all over the world attacking policies of his, which are wanted by the majority of Proletarian Venezuelans, isnt helping this move over to a Socialist society one bit.

Indeed it is something that the Bourgeoisie oppossition in Venezuela could use against Chavez who is a legitimate Socialist trying his best to create a Socialist society.
i agree with spartan.
there is no reason to discredit chavez and his attempts towards socialism. [/b]
Yeah, since socialism comes from lofty ivory towers in Caracas. I was always under the impression that socialism came from below, but who know.. Thank you for showing me the light Spartan :angry: .

[Herman]

(that actually played a major role in the coup of 2000).

The coup was in 2002.

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2007 11:56 pm

(that actually played a major role in the coup of 2000).

The coup was in 2002.
My mistake.

[AGITprop]

in response to organic
your are right, i agree, socialism doesnt come from ivory towers. no one is denying that, but right now there is no reaso to be against chavez when he is clearly on our side and this, we can use. Were actually planning on trying to get chavez to come to montreal to do a seminar.

[metalero]

It&#39;s not a simple mistake made by CNN, and it&#39;s not the first time the channel manipulates information against Chavez. Earlier this year, when the venezuelan state didn&#39;t renew the license to RCTV, CNN showed images (http://www.aporrea.org/medios/n94310.html)of a huge crowd protesting "in venezuela against the attack on freedom of press", when they were actually images from journalists protesting in mexico over the murder of a colleage.

[marxist_god]

Originally posted by Ender+November 28, 2007 06:41 pm--> (Ender @ November 28, 2007 06:41 pm)
[email protected] 28, 2007 06:40 pm
Well, that football player was shot and they don&#39;t know who did it, so...
<_< ...not the point..lol

my question is do you think CNN is possibly trying to incie his muder? [/b]

CNN gave 59 millions to Neocons (Republican Party) for the 2004 political campaing. So it is fair to state that CNN is a cell of Republican Party. Any thing is possible if CNN gave 59 millions to Republican Party

marxist_god

[La Comédie Noire]

Having worked in television and media I can tell you shit like that happens all the time. Honestly do you think a news station would actually do that purposely?

Not to mention the fact Hugo Chavez is the most imperialist friendly socialist leader I&#39;ve ever heard of, if any of you are even bothering to call him that anymore. But I digress.



It&#39;s not a simple mistake made by CNN, and it&#39;s not the first the the channel manipulates information against Chavez. Earlier this year, when the venezuelan state didn&#39;t renew the license to RCTV, CNN showed images of a huge crowd protesting "in venezuela against the attack on freedom of press", when they were actually images from journalists protesting in mexico over the murder of a colleage.

Don&#39;t you think if they were capable of that sort of deception they would even bother doing something so miniscule as showing a 4 second subliminal message?

I mean to each his own but I remain skeptical.


in response to organic
your are right, i agree, socialism doesnt come from ivory towers. no one is denying that, but right now there is no reaso to be against chavez when he is clearly on our side and this, we can use. Were actually planning on trying to get chavez to come to montreal to do a seminar.

The only thing revolutionary about Hugo Chavez is his rhetoric.

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2007 10:14 pm
Although, in practice, that&#39;s probably what Trotskyism would lead to (if it could actually make a revolution) - a group of Trots running a country rather than the masses.
Haha, yeah and Stalinism would never result in that&#33; :lol:

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by Led Zeppelin+December 02, 2007 06:18 am--> (Led Zeppelin @ December 02, 2007 06:18 am)
[email protected] 28, 2007 10:14 pm
Although, in practice, that&#39;s probably what Trotskyism would lead to (if it could actually make a revolution) - a group of Trots running a country rather than the masses.
Haha, yeah and Stalinism would never result in that&#33; :lol: [/b]
Oh&#33; Too late&#33; Hope Lies in the Proles beat you to what seems to be the only argument trots are capable of making.



Completely unlike Maoists in, well, every place they&#39;ve made a "revolution" in, hm?"

"Yeah, our line sucks...at least we aren&#39;t Stalinists&#33;"

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by SovietPants+December 02, 2007 07:20 am--> (SovietPants &#064; December 02, 2007 07:20 am)
Originally posted by Led [email protected] 02, 2007 06:18 am

[email protected] 28, 2007 10:14 pm
Although, in practice, that&#39;s probably what Trotskyism would lead to (if it could actually make a revolution) - a group of Trots running a country rather than the masses.
Haha, yeah and Stalinism would never result in that&#33; :lol:
Oh&#33; Too late&#33; Hope Lies in the Proles beat you to what seems to be the only argument trots are capable of making. [/b]
You&#39;re the one who made the argument first. And also, I guess TrotskyWasNotRight.