Norway?

[rocker935]

Anyone here know much about Norway? I saw this video and I seriously want to move there. I turn 18 in a couple years and i think it would be awesome to dropout of high school and move here.

could anyone tell me how realistic or accurate this clip is? Any input is appreciated, and I am aware that moore is the world's biggest spin doctor.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b5d_1195670526&p=1

[Zurdito]

A Norwegian Marxist friend of mine left Norway because there were so few Marxists there. he describes it as basically an obscenely rich and orderly country detached from the what is "reality" for the vast majority of the world (in a way that citizens in the larger imperialist states are not), and dominated by "consensus politics".

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Norway is one of the most progressive countries in the world, and it shows. Low crime rates. Great education. High living standards. Small wealth disparity in comparison to other economic giants. I would imagine the progressive European countries wouldn't be breeding grounds for us Leftists. If I had to live with capitalism, that's the best way to go.

Then you look at the most conservative countries like the United States, Australia, Somalia, and you wonder -- what the hell are people thinking?

[Tatarin]

I would say all Scandinavian countries are nice to live in comparing to the rest of the world. It is probably the only region with a humanely-like capitalist face.

[Q]

Scandinavian countries aren't unique, they only lag behind a few years in tearing down the welfare state. Sweden has turned to more neoliberal policies recently, Norway will probably follow soon enough.

[Marxist1917]

It is very sad that these countries are turning towards free market capitalism. They used to give me hope that somehow Europe would become Socialist by democracy within the current institutions. However once people realize the realities of what is to come, the Left will probably become very strong such as it currently is in France.

[Synaptic-Plasticity]

One good thing Sweden has done is sending Nazi deserters back to Denmark during WWII, where they were court martialled and executed. Lol

There's probably wooden churches you can burn as well

[Marxist1917]

Originally posted by Synaptic-[email protected] 29, 2007 02:24 pm
One good thing Sweden has done is sending Nazi deserters back to Denmark during WWII, where they were court martialled and executed. Lol

There's probably wooden churches you can burn as well
I don't see why that is a good thing if they are people who risked their life to escape the Nazi Army. If anything that says that they are anti-fascists.

[w0lf]

Norway looks awesome, now I'm thinking of moving there when I get older.

[Connolly]

What a load of BS propaganda.

"we have in principle no armed police" - eh, so what?, neither does ireland.

"We dont want to bring in the death penalty" - eh, so what?


Can you not see that this is just a bunch of middle class bollox. You get the same in US films, happy middle class families with a nice big house, nice lawn, car and they never seem to take a shit - divorced from the reality of the working class.

The fact is - you will have somewhat similar conditions to other places.

They have homeless. They have poverty. They have drug problems. They have housing estates and appartment blocks without facilities for children. They do have workers doing shit hours in work, commuting through a pile of traffic to do a repetitive shit job, for shit pay.

Its like anywere else. People are forced into economic slavery while a few elites become rich.

Sure look at how Ireland is portrayed - totally divorced from the day-to-day reality of the most disadvantaged in this society, and also the general working person.

You see a middle class image of the world instead in the media - golf courses, "wonderful new tram system", sit around in the various cafe's and just relax, have a meal out la la la la - all crap.

[The Grey Blur]

I don't see why that is a good thing if they are people who risked their life to escape the Nazi Army. If anything that says that they are anti-fascists.

Well considering Sweden adapted this policy mainly near the end of the war, i think it's possible that there may have been SS and party members trying to escape so as not to be captured by Russians etc etc. People can be driven from war by more than their beliefs.

[The Grey Blur]

sit around in the various cafe's

sitting around in various cafes is awesome

i don't know why you added an apostrophe....

[Connolly]

sitting around in various cafes is awesome

i don't know why you added an apostrophe....

Do you work?

Do you have children to look after?

A mortgage to pay?



NO working person with responsibilities I know have the time to do these things.

Its a middle class projection of the world, and something you see often on advertising to sell yuppie flats for young proffessionals.

And the prices are a ropoff. Its all nonsense.

[bezdomni]

Norway is imperialist.

[Killer Enigma]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 04:47 pm
Norway is imperialist.
Fantastic support for your claim. I love that you have stated your thesis and constructed a formidable argument using evidence. Bravo on citing your sources.

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by Killer Enigma+November 30, 2007 08:31 pm--> (Killer Enigma @ November 30, 2007 08:31 pm)
[email protected] 30, 2007 04:47 pm
Norway is imperialist.
Fantastic support for your claim. I love that you have stated your thesis and constructed a formidable argument using evidence. Bravo on citing your sources. [/b]
Fuck off. Take your pretentious shit somewhere else.

Norway is imperialist because the majority of its abundant wealth comes from finance capital, rather than domestic industrial production.

Norway, like all other imperialist countries, lives far beyond its own productive capacity.

[BlackSun]

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 04:33 am
Norway is imperialist because the majority of its abundant wealth comes from finance capital, rather than domestic industrial production.

Norway, like all other imperialist countries, lives far beyond its own productive capacity.

Can you please elaborate or provide sources in support of your statement.

[bezdomni]

Norway is a first world country, ergo, it is imperialist (in the sense that it extracts a surplus of wealth from labor done in the third world and relatively little productive labor is done in Norway). This is why Norway has so much money to spend on healthcare, education, making incredibly high wages...etc

Generally speaking, welfare states are imperialist states.

Is simple reasoning enough...or do you actually want me to dig up documents about Norway's political economy?

[bezdomni]

Here's some statistics that back up what I say, although I admit I found them on wikipedia (they are sourced from there though).


GDP: current price - $346 billion (2006 est.)

GDP - real growth rate: 3.0% (2006 est.)

GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $47,800 (2006 est.)

GDP - composition by sector:
agriculture: 2.3%
industry: 41.4%
services: 56.3%

Population below poverty line: N/A

Household income or consumption by percentage share:
lowest 10%: 4.1%
highest 10%: 21.8% (1995)

Inflation rate (consumer prices): 2.3% (2006 est.)

Labor force: 2.4 million (2000 est.) [Population is a little under five million].

Labor force - by occupation: services 74%, industry 22%, agriculture, forestry, and fishing 4% (1995)

Unemployment rate: 1.7% (2007 est.)

Employed persons as percentage of population 70.0% (3rd qtr 2006)

Budget:
revenues: $195.8 billion ["Far beyond it's own productive capacity"]
expenditures: $133.1 billion; including capital expenditures of $NA (2006 est.)

Industries: petroleum and gas, food processing, shipbuilding, pulp and paper products, metals, photovoltaics,software, electronics,chemical, timber, mining, textiles, fishing

Industrial production growth rate: 1.8% (2006 est.)

Electricity - production: 108.9 billion kWh (2004)

Electricity - production by source:
fossil fuel: 0.4%
hydro: 99.3%
nuclear: 0%
other: 0.4% (2001)

Electricity - consumption: 112.8 billion kWh (2004)

Electricity - exports: 3.8 billion kWh (2004)

Electricity - imports: 15.3 billion kWh (2004)

Agriculture - products: barley, other cereals, potatoes; beef, milk; fish

Exports: $161.3 billion f.o.b. (2006 est.)

Exports - commodities: petroleum and petroleum products, machinery and equipment, metals, chemicals, ships, fish

Exports - partners: UK 25.5%, Germany 12.6%, Netherlands 9.9%, France 9.1%, US 6.7%, Sweden 6.5% (2005)

Imports: $98 billion f.o.b. (2006 est.)

Imports - commodities: machinery and equipment, chemicals, metals, foodstuffs

Imports - partners: Sweden 14.6%, Germany 13.6%, Denmark 7.3%, UK 6.8%, China 5.5%, US 5%, France 4% (2005)

Debt - external: $350.3 billion; note - Norway is a net external creditor (30 June 2006)

Economic aid - donor: ODA, $2.1 billion (2003)

[Killer Enigma]

I don't recall having ever said that you were wrong. My intent was for you to start citing your sources and providing facts for claims that you make.

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by Killer [email protected] 02, 2007 04:57 am
My intent was for you to start citing your sources and providing facts for claims that you make.
No, you're just being a boring pedantic troll.

It's completely fucking obvious that Norway is an imperialist country. I don't know anybody that would dispute that. The reason I brought that up is because the solution isn't "let's all just move to Norway". Norway thrives on the exploitation of the third world as much as any other bourgeois welfare state.


I don't recall having ever said that you were wrong.

That's fine, because I don't recall giving a fuck.

[Killer Enigma]

You clearly gave at least one because you replied.

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by Killer [email protected] 02, 2007 06:19 am
You clearly gave at least one because you replied.
You clearly lack anything resembling a materialist analysis, since you needed me to give a source for something that is painstakingly obvious.

I really don't even understand what you're trying to do here other than be annoying.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by SovietPants+December 02, 2007 07:10 am--> (SovietPants @ December 02, 2007 07:10 am)
Killer [email protected] 02, 2007 06:19 am
You clearly gave at least one because you replied.
You clearly lack anything resembling a materialist analysis, since you needed me to give a source for something that is painstakingly obvious.

I really don't even understand what you're trying to do here other than be annoying. [/b]
More than 50 percent of the mexican workforce is in the service sector.

Is Mexico imperialist?

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by Marmot+December 02, 2007 07:16 am--> (Marmot @ December 02, 2007 07:16 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 07:10 am

Killer [email protected] 02, 2007 06:19 am
You clearly gave at least one because you replied.
You clearly lack anything resembling a materialist analysis, since you needed me to give a source for something that is painstakingly obvious.

I really don't even understand what you're trying to do here other than be annoying.
More than 50 percent of the mexican workforce is in the service sector.

Is Mexico imperialist? [/b]
Correlation does not imply causation. Imperialist countries tend to have a) a lower percentage of the population in the "workforce" and b) a higher percentage of this workforce concentrated in service rather than industry or agriculture.

They aren't imperialist because of this, rather, this tends to be true because they are imperialist.

Also, there is something fundamentally different about being a worker in the mexican service industry and in the american service industry. Specifically, comparatively fewer service workers in the U.S. are exploited.

Imperialism is defined by the role of finance capital in political economy, not some arbitrary percentage of workers performing a specific sort of labor.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by SovietPants+December 02, 2007 07:28 am--> (SovietPants @ December 02, 2007 07:28 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 07:16 am

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 07:10 am

Killer [email protected] 02, 2007 06:19 am
You clearly gave at least one because you replied.
You clearly lack anything resembling a materialist analysis, since you needed me to give a source for something that is painstakingly obvious.

I really don't even understand what you're trying to do here other than be annoying.
More than 50 percent of the mexican workforce is in the service sector.

Is Mexico imperialist?
Correlation does not imply causation. Imperialist countries tend to have a) a lower percentage of the population in the "workforce" and b) a higher percentage of this workforce concentrated in service rather than industry or agriculture.

They aren't imperialist because of this, rather, this tends to be true because they are imperialist.

Also, there is something fundamentally different about being a worker in the mexican service industry and in the american service industry. Specifically, comparatively fewer service workers in the U.S. are exploited.

Imperialism is defined by the role of finance capital in political economy, not some arbitrary percentage of workers performing a specific sort of labor. [/b]
I would argue "finance capital" dominates the mexican political economy--not to the extent it does in areas like the US, but it has a very heavy handed role in Mexico. A lot of shit is imported--like clothing, television sets, etc. In fact, a lot of nationalists are really "worried" about how mexicans themselves don't support their "local" economy.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 03:51 am
I turn 18 in a couple years and i think it would be awesome to dropout of high school and move here.
Yes, I'm sure they're going to love having a completely unschooled immigrant sucking off their welfare system. Sorry, but I think you're being a little unrealistic here. In his video, Moore doesn't even deny that he lied about Canada, the UK and France. It's all the usual liberal contrasting America with European "liberal" countries (often dominated by conservatives). And who cares that Norwegian conservatives are liberal by American standards? The words "conservative" and "liberal" have totally different meanings in Europe. It's no different in, say, the Netherlands.

Speaking of which, Amsterdam is a utopia too. This video proves it:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qk6YxhKH590

See? We don't have obesity, we worship clean modes of transport, everyone needs a licence to cycle and we have a national day for it that is pronounced "vee-yets dahk".*

*For those who can't recognize sarcasm: this man is telling complete and utter lies. Obesity is increasing here as well, parents do groceries or take their children to school in SUVs more and more, and using bikes is mostly practical.

But then again, this kind of illusion exists in the Netherlands itself, as well. For example, a commercial of Old Amsterdam cheese:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9erU4p3CsTg

This is a commercial by energy company Nuon. It reminds of the struggle against water, talks about global warming and promotes the company's "green" credentials:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=a0I0SouKxwo

[Marukusu]

Originally posted by rocker935
Anyone here know much about Norway? I saw this video and I seriously want to move there. I turn 18 in a couple years and i think it would be awesome to dropout of high school and move here.


Life in Scandinavia is pretty nice if you compare it to other countries I guess, but never believe in the lies that there's some kind of socialist utopia here.
As other comrades have stated before, we still have homeless people and problems with drugs, racism and unprovoced violence on the streets. The society is still divided in ritch and poor, workers and capitalists. The working class seems to be pretty conscious but hates communism and revolution because of century-old capitalist propaganda, russophobia and sheer conformism.

I advise you to at least finish your education and to think twice before you accept everything written and said from capitalist sources in the future.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

They got vikings, don't go there its full of vikings.

Vikings don't like communism, they like raiding monastaries.

On a more serious note; ive been to Norway and it does have a pretty cool welfare state, oddly enough the buses and trains were modern and on time: which is fucking amazing compared with the shit transport i put up with in the UK.

However it is funamentally capitalist, albeit a nice form of capitalism. i.e. there is a cuddly Snake and a spikey Snake, however both plan to kill you.

[Lynx]

They have oil.

[Louis Pio]

They have oil.

Indeed, and actually that's why they have been able to maintain a very high standard of living in comparison with also other Scandinavian countries like Denmark or Sweden.
It works the way that they save petroleum income (taxes, dividends, licensing, sales) in a Sovereign wealth fund (actually 2, here's the wiki on them (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Petroleum_Fund_of_Norway) ). While in for example Denmark were I live the oil was sold to the biggest danish capitalist for almost nothing.
However the mostly high standard of living also means that prices will seem high for people not living there.

Now all this doesn't mean that they aren't affected by the downs of capitalism as some people seem to suggest. The "scandinavian model" is being dismantled rapidly, first and foremost in Denmark. It just seems that this will go slower in Norway, but then again since it's based on oil the opposite could also happen.

So I think it would be alot wiser to fight for a socialist revolution instead of just thinking all your problems would be solved by moving to Norway (and as I said it's damn expensive, your money would run out in no time).