Women

[Owen-]

Why does there appear to be less women on this website than men?

Furthermore why are there apparently less women interested in socialism, or even politics for that matter, anywhere.

Im not saying that theres not a hell of a lot of women who are, its just to me that there seems a lot less than men.

Trying to phrase this in a way that is not sexist at all.

Cheers

[spartan]

I am really sorry if this sounds like a generalization but in our modern times (The majority of) women have alot more immediate things to worry about than politics such as raising a family (Which gets in the way of having a career), having a career (Which gets in the way of having a family) and then being told by all the magazines and adverts that they have to look really beautiful by buying the latest beauty cosmetics <_<

I think that the majority of men are simply not under this kind of immense pressure to be a certain way (Well not unless you include the stigma society seems to attach to being a homosexual man :angry: ).

[RedStarOverChina]

Unfortunately, it is true that passiveness prevails in many women even in our time. Women are still being taught at a young age that passiveness and servility are "virtues".

That, and the fact that women are more social than men in general and tend to enjoy physician, social interactions more.

I tried to get my girlfriend to play Warcraft with me for 4 months and she STILL didn&#39;t like it at all---image my shock.

[Cmde. Slavyanski]

Aside from the tradition of repressing women, capitalism in the post-war era sells women phony empowerment, in the form of Sex the City and other impuslive, idiotic lifestyles. They want women to be irrational and impulsive, because this keeps them down, and it hinders men who want to change something politically.

[Pawn Power]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 02:50 pm
Unfortunately, it is true that passiveness prevails in many women even in our time. Women are still being taught at a young age that passiveness and servility are "virtues".

That, and the fact that women are more social than men in general and tend to enjoy physician, social interactions more.

I tried to get my girlfriend to play Warcraft with me for 4 months and she STILL didn&#39;t like it at all---image my shock.
This is a load of shit.

[RedStarOverChina]

Originally posted by Pawn [email protected] 23, 2007 03:31 pm
This is a load of shit.
Yeah whatever.

[rouchambeau]

This is a good issue, and it&#39;s one that is not covered enough in activist and revolutionary circles. However, I don&#39;t think RevLeft is the best place to ask these sorts of questions because, as you said, there really aren&#39;t many women here. If you want an answer to your question look into answers that have been provided by activist women. They are a much higher authority on this subject than most people here.

[AGITprop]

on a positive note..my schools action commitee, CommonFront, has just as many, if not more women than men. And we are starting to get more and more female support at IMT. Alot of women, mostly younger ones, because of social conditionning i would say ( and i know im gona get told off for this one) tend to think of this kind of thing as uncool thus choose not to participate or brush it aside when a spark of interest does occur.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by RSOC

I tried to get my girlfriend to play Warcraft with me for 4 months and she STILL didn&#39;t like it at all---image my shock.

:lol:

But yeah, i agree with Pawn Power.

[Led Zeppelin]

Comrade Lennon explained it pretty well: Woman is the nigger of the world (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d036oDVEehY)

[black magick hustla]

lol my group is full of girls, there are only like three guys, including myself.

[Black Dagger]

Same; at weekly collective meetings the group is usually 50/50 m/f.

[blackstone]

At my school most of the organizations were ran by girls and memberships wise, if not 50/50, it was majority girl dominated.

[Tower of Bebel]

You see women less on internet forums in general I think.

In the party we see that not to many women join the movement :( . Many women enjoy less spare time than men and when they have children it gets worse.

Women are still confronted with two tasks: work 1 and work 2... or having a job and maintaining a family. The last job is unpayed labour. It&#39;s a burden, which makes it harder for most women to enjoy real freedom of expression.

Raising children is too oftenly seen as a taks for women (only). That&#39;s because it&#39;s a typical messure to keep women oppressed under capitalism. Socialists should make it clear that raising children is a task of (the whole of) society. Raising children is labour, it&#39;s equal to working in a factory.

[Black Dagger]

Perhaps the problem is not with women, but your party? It seems a bit too politically expedient to reflect on the lack of women in a party or organisation and point solely to external factors as the cause.

[blackstone]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2007 12:30 pm
You see women less on internet forums in general I think.

In the party we see that not to many women join the movement :( . Many women enjoy less spare time than men and when they have children it gets worse.

Women are still confronted with two tasks: work 1 and work 2... or having a job and maintaining a family. The last job is unpayed labour. It&#39;s a burden, which makes it harder for most women to enjoy real freedom of expression.

Raising children is too oftenly seen as a taks for women (only). That&#39;s because it&#39;s a typical messure to keep women oppressed under capitalism. Socialists should make it clear that raising children is a task of (the whole of) society. Raising children is labour, it&#39;s equal to working in a factory.
Every woman has a baby? That&#39;s news to me.

[Tower of Bebel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2007 12:30 pm
You see women less on internet forums in general I think.

In the party we see that not to many women join the movement :( . Many women enjoy less spare time than men and when they have children it gets worse.

Women are still confronted with two tasks: work 1 and work 2... or having a job and maintaining a family. The last job is unpayed labour. It&#39;s a burden, which makes it harder for most women to enjoy real freedom of expression.

Raising children is too oftenly seen as a taks for women (only). That&#39;s because it&#39;s a typical messure to keep women oppressed under capitalism. Socialists should make it clear that raising children is a task of (the whole of) society. Raising children is labour, it&#39;s equal to working in a factory.
Every woman has a baby? That&#39;s news to me.

I didn&#39;t write every woman. Maybe I should have added &#39;some&#39; or &#39;many&#39; or &#39;numerous&#39; to:

Women are still confronted with two tasks:

Why do you think there aren&#39;t too many women on revleft or in many political organisations?

[Tower of Bebel]

Perhaps the problem is not with women, but your party? It seems a bit too politically expedient to reflect on the lack of women in a party or organisation and point solely to external factors as the cause.

I don&#39;t know.

We have some sort of a women commission which is a part of the party that works around feminism and the liberation of women. The struggle for women&#39;s rights is an integral part of class struggle, but the commission wants to emphase this aspect a bit more.
During the last two meetings on the 90th aniversary of the October Revolution we spoke of the role of women in society, the remarkable difference between socialism and capitalism with the Russian Revolution as the finest example of how women we given equal rights (which only occured in Western Europe after World War Two) and economic equality (the revolution as the first step to the abolishion of classes).

In general, when we hold public meetings women or girls are always a minority amongst the visitors, even when we speak of feminism or the role of women in society :( .

It&#39;s also something we see in other youth organisations or other organisations. That&#39;s why I put the emphasis on external causes.

[blackstone]

Originally posted by Rakunin+November 27, 2007 01:10 pm--> (Rakunin &#064; November 27, 2007 01:10 pm)

[email protected] 27, 2007 12:30 pm
You see women less on internet forums in general I think.

In the party we see that not to many women join the movement :( . Many women enjoy less spare time than men and when they have children it gets worse.

Women are still confronted with two tasks: work 1 and work 2... or having a job and maintaining a family. The last job is unpayed labour. It&#39;s a burden, which makes it harder for most women to enjoy real freedom of expression.

Raising children is too oftenly seen as a taks for women (only). That&#39;s because it&#39;s a typical messure to keep women oppressed under capitalism. Socialists should make it clear that raising children is a task of (the whole of) society. Raising children is labour, it&#39;s equal to working in a factory.
Every woman has a baby? That&#39;s news to me.

I didn&#39;t write every woman. Maybe I should have added &#39;some&#39; or &#39;many&#39; or &#39;numerous&#39; to:

Women are still confronted with two tasks:

Why do you think there aren&#39;t too many women on revleft or in many political organisations? [/b]
Certainly not because "many", "numerous", or whatever the case have babies.

It&#39;s the same reasons why there aren&#39;t alot of black people on revleft or in political organizations... Or any minority for that matter.

this looks like a deep rabbit hole..

[Tower of Bebel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2007 08:33 pm
Certainly not because "many", "numerous", or whatever the case have babies.

It&#39;s the same reasons why there aren&#39;t alot of black people on revleft or in political organizations... Or any minority for that matter.

this looks like a deep rabbit hole..
btw, It&#39;s not all about having babies. Look at cleaning the house or prepairing diner.

But indeed, It doesn&#39;t explain why other minorities are sometimes also less active in political organisations.

[Ultra-Violence]

Womyn/Woman wichever way you spell it I admire alot to tell you the turth they got more balls than us men they really have courage by the sht loads.



I dunno about this one but im goana give it a try


On this web site their arent alot of ladies here i think cuase they have much more Interesting things to do than sit on a computer and argue with a bunch of nerds :P *pun


In the Movment however Woman never cease to amaze me and are usually on the front lines of the battles.BUT&#33; heres the pickle te womans libertaione movement is very divided from what i have seen and the Divide is Color IMO. White woman IMO in the movement are just in it for themselves and want t Be Equal to a WHITE MAN. While woman of color have a lot more shit to deal with. Look at my Mom for example she works comes home Makes dinner cuase my dad DEMANDS SHE MAKE DINNER clean etc..... Then she stll goes to school at night has homework Fucking 2 lazy ass kids who dont help here *My sibilings and this is an every day thing in her life so I dunno I dont think you should be asking men but ask the ladies who are on this Board as to as why theri arent more woman here

im a tell my GF to post here shell rant and she rants good better than me

[spartan]

Womyn/Woman wichever way you spell it I admire alot to tell you the turth they got more balls than us men they really have courage by the sht loads.



I dunno about this one but im goana give it a try


On this web site their arent alot of ladies here i think cuase they have much more Interesting things to do than sit on a computer and argue with a bunch of nerds :P *pun


In the Movment however Woman never cease to amaze me and are usually on the front lines of the battles.BUT&#33; heres the pickle te womans libertaione movement is very divided from what i have seen and the Divide is Color IMO. White woman IMO in the movement are just in it for themselves and want t Be Equal to a WHITE MAN. While woman of color have a lot more shit to deal with. Look at my Mom for example she works comes home Makes dinner cuase my dad DEMANDS SHE MAKE DINNER clean etc..... Then she stll goes to school at night has homework Fucking 2 lazy ass kids who dont help here *My sibilings and this is an every day thing in her life so I dunno I dont think you should be asking men but ask the ladies who are on this Board as to as why theri arent more woman here

im a tell my GF to post here shell rant and she rants good better than me
Drunk, high or Dyslexic?

[rouchambeau]

Hey, spartan, how about instead of dismissing his comment you show us where you think he was wrong.

[spartan]

Hey, spartan, how about instead of dismissing his comment you show us where you think he was wrong.
I dont think what he said was wrong&#33;

I find myself agreeing with most of what this person says.

It is just how he says it that is what i found odd (Too many spelling mistakes and words that dont make any sense for my liking).

[Module]

There is probably a mixture of reasons as to why women seem less involved in politics than men (though that is debatable, and certainly less the case now than it has been in the past, although that is something you would expect.)
I watched a documentary called "Sex and Gender" in my Society and Culture class last year, which examined the way in which boys and girls are raised differently within the family, and general society.
It mentioned that the chores given to boys and girls were different - boys being asked to go help the father in the garden, girls being asked to help their mother in the kitchen. Boys would be given toys to play with outside, and girls given toys to play with inside.
Apparently the end result of the different treatment given to children at a young age was dramatic.
Boys are taught to explore, learn, and generally experience the world outside of the home, whilst girls are told to stay in the house, they&#39;re kept clean, and they are "sheltered from experience,"
The metaphor they used was "We give our girls roots and our boys wings,"
The documentary also mentioned that parents will generally discourage behaviour which is not suited to their gender, and encourage behaviour that is.
Women have been traditionally excluded from politics, and I think this fact remains in that both women and men still consider politics to be a man&#39;s thing.
Men are more encouraged and expected to know about political issues, and women are not.
I&#39;m sure I&#39;m not the only one that knows a guy into politics who also uses it as a thing of dominance over others. I know I&#39;m not because I have seen people mention it before. It seems to be very common.
There is a very obvious male dominance in most political &#39;scenes&#39; and I think that a big reason for this is because being politically interested is seen as quite a &#39;macho&#39; thing.
Of course, this can be very unwelcoming to those of us who aren&#39;t taught to be macho - that is, most women, and some men.
And these kind of macho people can also be very patronising to those who aren&#39;t &#39;macho&#39; like themselves, I won&#39;t say specifically because they&#39;re women, because it can also be those who are just not so sure of their politics, but generally it can women as well, whether they&#39;re sure of their politics or not.
So I don&#39;t think it&#39;s a &#39;sex&#39; difference, rather a &#39;gender&#39; difference.
Politics isn&#39;t something women traditionally get involved in, because it&#39;s still the views of the still patriarchal society we live in that it&#39;s not something they should get involved in. The things which society says should be important to them are things like family, and looking pretty. Those are the things that they are taught, from the &#39;women&#39;s magazines&#39;, a lot of the time from their families, from the general male dominated nature of the political scene.
Whadayareckon?

[apathy maybe]

It is my humble opinion that when you get men and boys discussing why women and girls don&#39;t do X (in this case come to this website), they mostly have no fucking idea what they are talking about.

They make incredible generalisations, ignorant comments and so on.

To continue this theme, I wouldn&#39;t be surprised if the reason many women/girls don&#39;t post on this site is because of these sort of comments&#33; (OK, that was a joke...) Unless you ask a significant number of radical left women why they don&#39;t post on RevLeft, you won&#39;t know the answer, my suggestion is to stop asking the question.


More generally, it is my experience that in activist/radical organisations, women are often either in the majority of leadership positions (where such positions exist) or at the very least the split is 50/50. Where formal leadership positions don&#39;t exist, women are just as likely as men to be a guiding force for the organisation.

[RbG]

Hey SPARTAN, how about you make it more clear to what youre dissing on next time, and teaching that person how to spell properly. Since we know that you how . :blink:

[RedStarOverChina]

Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 27, 2007 09:31 pm
More generally, it is my experience that in activist/radical organisations, women are often either in the majority of leadership positions (where such positions exist) or at the very least the split is 50/50. Where formal leadership positions don&#39;t exist, women are just as likely as men to be a guiding force for the organisation.
My experience has been quite different. Something like 2 out of 10 people from my organization are girls--even though one of them is our organizer. No doubt women assume "leadership" positions far more often in leftist organizations than most other, but still according to what I&#39;ve heard from others, most leftist organizations have a white-male majority.

[Sam_b]

I think the most basic thing we can do to try and get more women comrades to participate is by not (like some people) blanky calling them all &#39;girls&#39;.

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 07:32 pm
I think the most basic thing we can do to try and get more women comrades to participate is by not (like some people) blanky calling them all &#39;girls&#39;.
SERIOUSLY&#33; It&#39;s paternalistic and stupid&#33;

It&#39;s like you&#39;re not acknowledging that they&#39;re adults, and independent.

No offense, RSOC.

[RedStarOverChina]

Eh, clearly I am FOR having more girls in the movement--Our organization actually has a policy focusing on girls and minorities. I am a minority myself and I have recruited (sort of) two girls into my organization.

What&#39;s wrong with calling them "girls"? Does the word "girl" imply vulnerability or dependence? Not to me.

[apathy maybe]

How would you like it to be constantly referred to as a &#39;boy&#39;?

When talking about women (adults) and calling them girls, it implies that they are childlike, with a similar mental status. It might not be what you intend, but it is certainly a possibility.

It might not be meant offensively, but there is always the possibility that it is interpreted offensively. The easiest way to get around this? Talk about women, not girls, unless you know that the person you are talking about is a child.

OK boy?

[RedStarOverChina]

To me, the word "girl" gives a sense of youthful vitality and I have always been under the impression that girls like to be known as, you know, NOT OLD.

Especially since my organization is one for the youth, officially anyone over 12 can join and we even have a few under that age limit.

But fine, for the sake of this argument, I will use the word woman or womyn or whatever that&#39;s considered appropriate from now on. To me, choice of words have never been a issue and I prefer to look into the ideas being presented rather than the choice of words or rhetoric.

[Black Dagger]

Maybe you&#39;d find more women were interested in your organisation if you referred to them with respect instead of like children - just a thought.

[shaolinworldwide]

this forum is a poor representation of women&#39;s involvement.
as a woman, i can vouch for the fact that most of us don&#39;t browse forums as much in general.
and in my observation, women and men participate fairly equally as far as radical activism goes.
the branch of SDS at my school is almost entirely female.

[RedStarOverChina]

Originally posted by bleeding gums [email protected] 29, 2007 11:08 pm
Maybe you&#39;d find more women were interested in your organisation if you referred to them with respect instead of like children - just a thought.
Oh fer crying out loud.

[rouchambeau]

RSOC, just accept that women don&#39;t like being called girls. You may have good intentions in using the word, but that doesn&#39;t mean it will be taken kindly.

[spartan]

RSOC, just accept that women don&#39;t like being called girls. You may have good intentions in using the word, but that doesn&#39;t mean it will be taken kindly.
So you know for a fact that every single female in this world does not liked to be called a girl? :huh:

Perhaps you should have included the word "some" in your remark?

[Sam_b]

Does the word "girl" imply vulnerability or dependence?

Yes.

[RedStarOverChina]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 01:46 pm
RSOC, just accept that women don&#39;t like being called girls.
I&#39;m not sure about that assessment but I already said I will refer to them as women from now on. So please.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 04:59 am

RSOC, just accept that women don&#39;t like being called girls. You may have good intentions in using the word, but that doesn&#39;t mean it will be taken kindly.
So you know for a fact that every single female in this world does not liked to be called a girl? :huh:

Perhaps you should have included the word "some" in your remark?
That&#39;s a given - you&#39;ve missed the point.

[BlackSun]

:angry: HEY, TO HELL WITH THOSE HEIFERS&#33;&#33;&#33;

LOL Nah, I&#39;m just kidding around.

Seriously though, there&#39;s multitudes of distractions that are put upon the masses and women and girls are no exception. Besides being under the constant bombardment of subliminal (and sometimes outright overt) conditioning of watching mind-numbing junk like DESPERATE HOUSEWIVES, AMERICAN IDOL and DANCING WITH THE STARS or keeping tuned to the E&#33; NETWORK to be fed the latest gossip on what&#39;s happening with bimbo idols like Paris Hilton or Brittany Spears, they are also well conditioned in the school system, work place and through music.

Yes, there way more women in position of authority today then, let&#39;s say, forty or thirty year ago . . . hell, you can probably even say twenty years ago, but they are still parameterized in a oppressive social structure that is meticulously design for them. There are safety-guards in place by and for the establishment for those of the female sex who dare to take there attention off the air-head TV-programs and out of the fashion magazines for just a few minutes. They are given the likes of Oprah, Condelesa Rice and Hillary Clinton to look up to. Never are they shown the truth about those such as Harriett Tubman where she not only lead many through the underground-railroad but actually had her own commando-squad and lead raids on many plantations. Or the full story the Women&#39;s Movement in the late 1800&#39;s and early 1900&#39;s where it was more than just for the right to vote. Or the truth regarding the Women&#39;s Movement in the late 60&#39;s into the 70&#39;s where it was co-opted and used for the purpose of the elite. Man, I can go on and on.

Point is, each sex; as well as each race, each nationality and so on has its own brand of psychological game-play designed and orchestrated by the power-elite.

[BlackSun]

Oh yeah,

RedStarOverChina, man your avi really cracked me up. :D

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 07:17 pm

Does the word "girl" imply vulnerability or dependence?

Yes.
In my experience, it implies youth, and most women love to be called "meninas", "garotas" or "gurias".

Perhaps it is an Anglo-saxon phenomenon?

Luís Henrique

[apathy maybe]

Is there a similar correlation with men being called "boys"?

I would think that at least in English, for a man to be called a boy would generally be at least slightly insulting (which is why you see it often on this website). You are young, ignorant, inexperienced, you are not a man.

And to be thought of as "not a man" is a big insult.


I wonder why the difference with women and girl?

[rouchambeau]

I wonder why the difference with women and girl?
The same reason why "cracker" is hardly offensive to white people.

[Comrade Nadezhda]

As being a female, the use of the word "girl" implies youth- and not necessarily in a positive light. Usually when a female is refered to a girl, and is of adult age- it implies that she lacks the experience of a woman to develop fully in character (thus, inexperienced). Many times females are refered to as "girls" when they lack maturity and display foolishness.

Most females I have known who are 20 or older would consider it an insult to be referred to as a "girl". However, there are men who are in their 20s and refer to females of the same age as they are as "girls". What I like to bring up, however, is- (just as others have said) how would a man feel if they were refered to as a "boy" at that age? It would imply a lack of manhood. It would be insulting. I consider it to be the same in regard to females.

[19Rocketman82]

although im new to the movement in general ive noticed a dearth of women in the groups ive been involved with...i really think it has to do with our early upbringings

most of us have not had the luxury of early communal life and an environment where weve learned proper principles since day one...we come into the movement with considerable baggage

in spite of all the high sounding rhetoric and calls for revolutionary action men still act like men and women still act like women...we need to focus more on ourselves...more on remolding our own consciousnesses before we take to the streets

as the vanguard party people will look to us for leadership by example...we cannot do this if we still act like capitalist, sexist, racist, homophobic pigs...each of us needs to take a harder look at our own thoughts feelings and unconscious actions

i think the reason that some groups are mostly women and other groups have few to no women are because the men play the same roles they have always played...women feel uncomfortable and go away to form their own groups or find less sexist ones

i sincerely believe if (as a man) your group does not have enough women it is not due to circumstance...it is a direct result of your own vestigial sexism...i suggest a bit of personal work...i certainly had to do this and still do every day

this is not targeted at anyone in particular but just an observation

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 01, 2007 11:35 pm
Most females I have known who are 20 or older would consider it an insult to be referred to as a "girl". However, there are men who are in their 20s and refer to females of the same age as they are as "girls". What I like to bring up, however, is- (just as others have said) how would a man feel if they were refered to as a "boy" at that age? It would imply a lack of manhood. It would be insulting. I consider it to be the same in regard to females.
Here, the words "menino", "guri", "garoto", "rapaz", are hardly offencive (what I find offencive, on the contrary, is the tendency of the Brazilian press to refer to young middle class criminals as "rapazes", "jovens" or "meninos", while they call lower class criminals always "homens" or "indivíduos").

A word that can be very offencive, especially when used to black men, though, is "moleque" - and for the same reasons, I suspect, that "boy" is so offencive to American black men: because it was the word used to refer to slave children.

Luís Henrique