The Perfect Economic Storm

[Red Terror Doctor]

Face it --- the War In Iraq, the trade deficit, the sinking dollar, the sub-prime housing crisis, and rising oil prices. I WANT TO BELIEVE!!!!

Check out these two articles.


http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/11/14/5210/

http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney11102007.html

[Ultra-Violence]

ive been thinking the same shit too its so fucing expensive to fil up my car food is expensive i find my self going to the dollar menu every day to eat i. sucks balls really and it just feels like shit is goana get worst to me so many people are also losing the thier homes etc..... it could be another econimic collapse IMO

[lvleph]

It cost me $20 to do laundry yesterday. Food seems to be costing me so much more than normal. This is getting ridiculous.

[ComradeOm]

The Russian Revolution was proceeded by decades of agitation and revolutionary movements. In Spain there was continual conflicts for over a century before the Civil War. Even China experienced a similar decline prior to revolution. It will take a lot more than a "perfect economic storm", a phrase that could describe numerous past economic depressions, before things change today.

It is possible that we are witnessing the apex of capitalism. Personally I feel that at the least the US global hegemony has entered a period of definite decline. We should not kid ourselves however that revolution is around the corner. Certainly there is not even the remotest possibility of revolution in the West within the next decade or two.

[Cheung Mo]

Most people in the West picture a seven-horned Hillary Clinton or Andre Boisclair with lines of coke up his nose when they think of socialism.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by Cheung [email protected] 19, 2007 11:05 pm
Most people in the West picture a seven-horned Hillary Clinton or Andre Boisclair with lines of coke up his nose when they think of socialism.
most people in the UK picture either Ken Livingstone or Arthur Scargill which is just dripping of irony.

[Tatarin]

I wonder what they will say. "Hello, I&#39;m <newsanchor>. America has fallen." :o

[grove street]

It"s important to remember that America and China both support each others economy

Although America owes China lots< American consumption of Chinese exports is one of the driving forces behind China"s economy> China is not going to ask America to cough up the money anytime soon> If America goes under then China will lose its biggest customer but that could also drive China to push America to repay its debt in order to compensate for the loss of its biggest customer.

In other words China will most likely wait until America hits rock bottom before asking for its money back leaving America in an either bigger hole>

I"m optimisticly pessemistic about this situation and I"m hoping for the worst> Although if worst comes to worst and we do experience another Great Depression despite hard time ahead it"s unlikely that any revolution will break out in the first world atleast but it gives us ample opportunity to raise class conscienceness>

[Lenin II]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 11:31 pm
I wonder what they will say. "Hello, I&#39;m <newsanchor>. America has fallen." :o
I will shout with pure happiness, tears of joy streaming down my face as I dance in the streets.

We should not be so quick to dismiss the people&#39;s dissatisfaction. There is almost no consensus for the exact material conditions required for revolution.

[Psy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 10:40 pm
It is possible that we are witnessing the apex of capitalism. Personally I feel that at the least the US global hegemony has entered a period of definite decline. We should not kid ourselves however that revolution is around the corner. Certainly there is not even the remotest possibility of revolution in the West within the next decade or two.
Lets us not forget that before Paris May 1968 people were writing off French workers saying they were not organized (few were even in a trade union). Then all of a sudden a revolution situation opened up and the workers reacted with general strikes and factory occupations, construction workers built barricades to stop the armoured police cars, councils were setup and the French ruling class thought they were looking at their version of Petrograd 1917.

While Paris May 1968 was crushed by the ruling class calling a election just like in Buenos Aires, Paris May 1968 came close to escalating into a full-scale revolution.

[SocialistMilitant]

A bit of a history reminder:

The Fed tightened credit right before the Great Depression. History repeats itself. Watch gold go over &#036;1000 by the end of December, it&#39;s record high. Oil is already at &#036;100 a barrel, it&#39;s going to keep rising. Things are going to shit.

[VukBZ2005]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 12:44 pm
While Paris May 1968 was crushed by the ruling class calling a election just like in Buenos Aires.
Psy, that situation was not really crushed by the ruling class calling an election. What really crushed it was the selling out of the French working class by both the General Confederation of Labor (CGT) and the French "Communist" Party (PCF) to the French Capitalist class, because these organizations basically acted as the "voice of the French working class" when that was not truly the case. The call for elections just cleared out any remaining sentiment that was generated by that actual revolutionary situation.

[Ultra-Violence]

lets say the shit really hits the fan Woudln&#39;t it be our moment to shine etc... we better not fuck up this time :o

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 05:44 pm
Lets us not forget that before Paris May 1968 people were writing off French workers saying they were not organized (few were even in a trade union).
And the students of &#39;68 never came close to revolution. One could argue that this was a result of their lack of organisation (and arms&#33;) but the simple reality is that &#39;68 was a flash in the pan - a brief outburst of discontent with no lasting impact outside of intellectual circles. The entire episode was a reaction to a crisis within the French political, ie not economic, structures.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Get yourself situated, friends. Whether it turns out as bad as some experts think or not, next year is sure to be a doozy. Economic downturns are a stunning propaganda defeat.

[MT5678]

"A Revolution is just below the surface".
-Noam Chomsky, Interview w/ Golinger

Things are getting worse and worse. In the case of Estadounidenses ("Americans" is a culturally imperialist term), I don&#39;t think anyone will go radical, but I do foresee the formation of a laborite block. And then it will go Keynesian, and then it will again be full on neoliberal.

And then we get our chance.

[VukBZ2005]

Originally posted by ComradeOm
And the students of &#39;68 never came close to revolution.

The students in France started the situation that became May-June 1968 into motion, but they were not the main actors; that distinction belongs to the working class of France. Therefore, your implication, that the students were the main actors in that situation, is an implication that is necessarily inaccurate and thus, demonstrates the flaws in your analysis of that situation.

Also, your assertion that France was not in a revolutionary situation in May-June 1968 is an assertion that is ridiculous. Anyone who is not blind could see that this situation was a revolutionary situation.


One could argue that this was a result of their lack of organisation (and arms&#33;) but the simple reality is that &#39;68 was a flash in the pan - a brief outburst of discontent with no lasting impact outside of intellectual circles.

Again, the reason why the revolutionary situation of May-June 1968 in France did not go as far it could have gone, although the length that it went to at the time that it was sabotaged was, in and of itself, amazing, was because of the fact that the CGT and the party that controlled it, the French "Communist" Party, managed to reign in the situation under their control, thus impeding whatever development was taking place outside of the party and the union, and, allowing these two organizations to become the "voice of the French working class", which enabled them to effectively sell-out the structure in the name of reforms. If you can not understand this, then you will not be necessarily able to understand the entirety of that situation. You will continue to act as if it was not that important and, to say things like, "it was a flash in the pan".

[RevSkeptic]

So after the "revolution" what then. We all sing the internationale and get marched off to our respective factory or farm? The reason why there isn&#39;t going to be a revolution is because there&#39;s no inspiration for anything better than the life of school...work...retirement...grave.

If you have nothing else better to offer me then I&#39;ll stick to Capitalist consumerism. At least I can drink myself into a stupor every weekend and buy some nice toys to forget my troubles. What&#39;s the substitute you have for me in Communism? Anti-freeze and vodka? :lol:

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by RevSkeptic+November 25, 2007 02:20 am--> (RevSkeptic @ November 25, 2007 02:20 am) So after the "revolution" what then. We all sing the internationale and get marched off to our respective factory or farm? The reason why there isn&#39;t going to be a revolution is because there&#39;s no inspiration for anything better than the life of school...work...retirement...grave.

If you have nothing else better to offer me then I&#39;ll stick to Capitalist consumerism. At least I can drink myself into a stupor every weekend and buy some nice toys to forget my troubles. What&#39;s the substitute you have for me in Communism? Anti-freeze and vodka? :lol: [/b]
Screw off.


GC
Secondly, and more importantly, the Federal Government has ways of manipulating the money supply such that it will always have enough dollars to pay its outstanding debts.
The dollar is probably what will go first.

Nobody knows what exactly will come of the sub-prime mortgage thing, either.

I also think that capitalism has definitely hit it&#39;s apex when the Dow index hit 15,000. Capitalism has entered a period of inexorable decline. :)

[Wanted Man]

I wouldn&#39;t get too excited. Sure, it&#39;s nice to dream, but it&#39;s hardly something to get your panties wet about. In the 70s we had much worse economic crises, much more massive student demonstrations, much more strikes, etc. The 80s had debilitating squatter&#39;s riots.

RevSkeptic: you&#39;ve certainly chosen a very strange place to make people aware of your alcoholism. AA is next door.

[Axel1917]

I also think that capitalism has definitely hit it&#39;s apex when the Dow index hit 15,000. Capitalism has entered a period of inexorable decline. smile.gif

Not necessarily - if we fail to seize power, the capitalists will find a way to rejuvenate themselves at the expense of the working class, and it isn&#39;t going to be pretty if this does happen. Since there isn&#39;t a postwar boom like last time, the only way they would be able to accomplish this would be through hardcore bourgeois bonapartism, union busting at gunpoint, and scrapping all benefits and introducing sweatshop like conditions.

Events in the USA are indeed turbulent. Things can change very rapidly, and I cannot stress enough that we must be prepared in the USA. It is amazing at how quickly things can change, when a country that no one expects to be "ripe" for revolution ends up being the country that is first in line (as was the case with Russia in 1917.). We need to build our forces so we can intervene more actively and do consistent, all-around political exposure to win workers over to our side.

It is still at a rather low level, but we have seen a definite shift to the left nonetheless in the USA in the opening years of the 21st Century. With more explosive events to push them to the left in the future, we can grow very quickly if we keep up our work (the Bolsheviks, for instance, grew from a tiny minority to a decisive majority in power within nine months, on a sturdy foundation built up in previous years.).

[Faux Real]

The bourgeoisie are already taking precautions, the signs are all around us and pointing towards the same direction.

Domestic spying, concentration camps, CCTV everywhere, militarization of police, anti-terror legislation used as an excuse to go after anyone deemed out of order or extremist, etc.

Things aren&#39;t looking too pretty.

The left in this country needs to mobilize faster and use better tactics/mediums, and that seems like an impossible task given it&#39;s current state of affairs. I do admit it has been growing, albeit fragmented, recently. Of course its a given that it has fueled the reactionary efforts to curtail this sentiment. Libertarian goons who advocate Ron Paul are not helping either.

[RevSkeptic]

Screw off

Alright, I&#39;m sorry, but what make&#39;s you think that revolution is right around the corner because everybody is still hoping to win the lottery in life? "U.S. students would trade right to vote for ipod." isn&#39;t exactly a good sign of revolutionary ferment and hot headed radicalism. It&#39;s more of a sign that most everybody likes to be entertained rather than work for a living.

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 09:18 am

Screw off

Alright, I&#39;m sorry, but what make&#39;s you think that revolution is right around the corner because everybody is still hoping to win the lottery in life? "U.S. students would trade right to vote for ipod." isn&#39;t exactly a good sign of revolutionary ferment and hot headed radicalism. It&#39;s more of a sign that most everybody likes to be entertained rather than work for a living.
So what? I&#39;d trade my right to vote for an iPod as well, and I don&#39;t even really give a shit about having one.

Maybe they just realize that voting in a class-dictatorship is pointless, because in the past they&#39;ve been screwed over time after time, and the bourgeois politicians never keep their promises? Seems more likely no?

[Ismail]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 04:18 am
It&#39;s more of a sign that most everybody likes to be entertained rather than work for a living.
If anything, people would work less in a Communist society, and society as a whole would not be damaged from this. (They would work less not out of laziness, but because they don&#39;t need too as issues like overproduction and such will be stamped out as much as possible)

[Dros]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 07:20 am
So after the "revolution" what then. We all sing the internationale and get marched off to our respective factory or farm? The reason why there isn&#39;t going to be a revolution is because there&#39;s no inspiration for anything better than the life of school...work...retirement...grave.

If you have nothing else better to offer me then I&#39;ll stick to Capitalist consumerism. At least I can drink myself into a stupor every weekend and buy some nice toys to forget my troubles. What&#39;s the substitute you have for me in Communism? Anti-freeze and vodka? :lol:
Just curious. If you aren&#39;t a revolutionary, what the fuck are you doing at a revolutionary leftist message board? Do you think you are going to change our minds?

Go away.

[RevSkeptic]

Just curious. If you aren&#39;t a revolutionary, what the fuck are you doing at a revolutionary leftist message board? Do you think you are going to change our minds?

Oh, yes. I see. You assume to speak for all workers, but I&#39;m trying to understand how you are going to deal with the human condition of facing a life of limited possibilities without turning everybody into satisfied robots who work in their routine jobs day in and day out for most of their lives including those who object to it because they find such a life not much more inspirational than a long boring walk to the cemetary to be buried in their own grave.

This very important question I assume you&#39;ve thought over unless you&#39;ve already made up your mind to use state repression to enforce your "Communist" utopia.

Oh, by the way. Everybody hates a skeptic because they&#39;re such party poopers. For the record, I&#39;m also skeptical of the Capitalist system, but hot headed radicals would rather believe their own infallible ideology and personality than listen to a skeptical voice even if skepticism is useful at times. So tell me again after the revolution if I&#39;m skeptical or shows signs of skepticism how am I going to be "dealth with"?

[Psy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 12:19 am

And the students of &#39;68 never came close to revolution. One could argue that this was a result of their lack of organisation (and arms&#33;) but the simple reality is that &#39;68 was a flash in the pan - a brief outburst of discontent with no lasting impact outside of intellectual circles. The entire episode was a reaction to a crisis within the French political, ie not economic, structures.
The police became totally disorganized (they were not prepared for a mass uprising and let themselves become divided and picked off) and the state delayed bringing in the army, so May 1968 came close. What was missing was pushing all the way to the capital when the police lines broke, the police couldn&#39;t have done shit if the protesters started to pour through the breaks in their lines and moved to take the capital that at the time was exposed.

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 04:18 am

Screw off

Alright, I&#39;m sorry, but what make&#39;s you think that revolution is right around the corner because everybody is still hoping to win the lottery in life? "U.S. students would trade right to vote for ipod." isn&#39;t exactly a good sign of revolutionary ferment and hot headed radicalism. It&#39;s more of a sign that most everybody likes to be entertained rather than work for a living.
Actually I thought that was also an indicator that most people realize that if elections changed anything, they&#39;d be illegal. Sure materialism has something to do with it, but I think that survey was more of a mixed signal.

And also: I apologize for the Screw off comment--that was your first post, and I thought you were just a troll.

[Lynx]

Oh, by the way. Everybody hates a skeptic because they&#39;re such party poopers.
Skepticism, yes. Cynicism, no. Critical thinking, yes. Negative thinking, no.

And, at any given moment, some comrades will not be in the mood for any of this.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by ComradeOm+November 24, 2007 07:19 pm--> (ComradeOm @ November 24, 2007 07:19 pm)
[email protected] 21, 2007 05:44 pm
Lets us not forget that before Paris May 1968 people were writing off French workers saying they were not organized (few were even in a trade union).
And the students of &#39;68 never came close to revolution. One could argue that this was a result of their lack of organisation (and arms&#33;) but the simple reality is that &#39;68 was a flash in the pan - a brief outburst of discontent with no lasting impact outside of intellectual circles. The entire episode was a reaction to a crisis within the French political, ie not economic, structures. [/b]
The events of 1968 were far more than just a few actions of some radical students. 2/3 of the entire french working class were on strike&#33; Even though it was a failure, the events of May 68 radically changed french culture and social attitudes, as well as influenced (anti)politics for years to come. I suggest you read up on what actually happened because it seems that you clearly know nothing about may 68.