The Word "Black"

[wefreepunk823]

Today I was talking to a friend of mine and her friend is an african american. I said the word black to decribe the girl because my friend knows many girl of that name.When I said "black",a black man behind me stood up and called me a racist fuck. Now, do you think that was racist, or do you think the man was over reacting?

[Pawn Power]

Perhaps the context you used it in could have been seen as racist?

I don't think "black" is inherently racist. I, or anybody, can speak for a whole population that is not regidly catorgorized and that changes depending on time and location but many african americans today use the work black to describe other african americans.

[S.O.I]

saying someone is black can hardly be called racist.. after all white people are white. we dont call white people caucasian, except when filling out forms...

[Mujer Libre]

Also, not all Black people are American. *gasp!*

Historically, the word Black has been used in an affirmative, political way by people of colour who wanted to resist the characterisation of themselves as the non-white other.

This (http://www.disa.ukzn.ac.za/articledisplaypage.asp?filename=FtFeb84&articletitle=The+definition+of+Black+Consciousness&searchtype=browse) article is an introduction to the Black Consciousness movement in South Africa, and their use of the word. The archive it's housed in is a great resource for further reading.

I mean, obviously the word could be used in a racist context, but I think that's fairly unusual considering the plethora of other racist insults around. It certainly isn't racist all the time.

[Bilan]

The answer to this is entirely contextual.
For some reason, I doubt that it was simply that you said "Black" that pissed this guy off; I'm not accusing you, but I think there might be a little more to this picture, probably unintentionally.
Indeed, you have to be conscious about what you're saying, especially around these sort of issues, and about how you say it.

[apathy maybe]

Here in Australia I (personally) talk about black fellas and white fellas.

It is stupid, because 'white' people aren't white, and 'black' people aren't black, yet that is how things are...


I personally think it does depend on the context, I also think that the majority of time it doesn't mean shit.

And if someone (or a form) asks your for your "race", you should reply (or write) 'none', or 'race does not exist', or 'race is a racist reactionary theory propagated by stupid right-wing fuckers'.

[S.O.I]

Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 16, 2007 07:26 am
Here in Australia I (personally) talk about black fellas and white fellas.

It is stupid, because 'white' people aren't white, and 'black' people aren't black, yet that is how things are...
we should start calling eachother "pinkys" and "brownies"

[lvleph]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 03:45 am
Speaking as an African "American" myself, I don't see any problem with using "black" as an adjective for description, considering it's not in a racist or negative context. Just like I might say "white" to describe caucasian person.

Interestingly enough, these are the only two groups where it's acceptable to classify them as colors. When was the last time you heard anyone say, "I live next door to a really nice yellow guy."?

However, It's prevalent among many more conscious African "Americans" that the word, "black", is racist by definition.

For example, by looking up "Black" in the dictionary, these are the type of things you will see:

Black

soiled or stained with dirt: That shirt was black within an hour.

gloomy; pessimistic; dismal: a black outlook.

deliberately; harmful; inexcusable: a black lie.

boding ill; sullen or hostile; threatening: black words; black looks.

without any moral quality or goodness; evil; wicked: His black heart has concocted yet another black deed.

based on the grotesque, morbid, or unpleasant aspects of life: black comedy; black humor.

And that's only a few selection, there's more. But moving on, look up White:

White

of the color of pure snow

morally pure; innocent.

without malice; harmless: white magic

auspicious or fortunate.

Slang. decent, honorable, or dependable: That's very white of you. :rolleyes:

I hope this helped.

Even with the above, I'm still not offended with anyone saying things like "black guy" etc. but I am not a spokesperson for all Blacks, so you still might offend some people.

I would say do whichever you feel like, use "black" and defend yourself if someone tries to call you a bigot, or just say, "African American". A little more long winded and tedious, sure. But it's PC and you won't get called a racist.
I thought that the African American/Black community were repatriating the word Black?

[blackstone]

Originally posted by lvleph+November 16, 2007 07:31 am--> (lvleph @ November 16, 2007 07:31 am)
[email protected] 16, 2007 03:45 am
Speaking as an African "American" myself, I don't see any problem with using "black" as an adjective for description, considering it's not in a racist or negative context. Just like I might say "white" to describe caucasian person.

Interestingly enough, these are the only two groups where it's acceptable to classify them as colors. When was the last time you heard anyone say, "I live next door to a really nice yellow guy."?

However, It's prevalent among many more conscious African "Americans" that the word, "black", is racist by definition.

For example, by looking up "Black" in the dictionary, these are the type of things you will see:

Black

soiled or stained with dirt: That shirt was black within an hour.

gloomy; pessimistic; dismal: a black outlook.

deliberately; harmful; inexcusable: a black lie.

boding ill; sullen or hostile; threatening: black words; black looks.

without any moral quality or goodness; evil; wicked: His black heart has concocted yet another black deed.

based on the grotesque, morbid, or unpleasant aspects of life: black comedy; black humor.

And that's only a few selection, there's more. But moving on, look up White:

White

of the color of pure snow

morally pure; innocent.

without malice; harmless: white magic

auspicious or fortunate.

Slang. decent, honorable, or dependable: That's very white of you. :rolleyes:

I hope this helped.

Even with the above, I'm still not offended with anyone saying things like "black guy" etc. but I am not a spokesperson for all Blacks, so you still might offend some people.

I would say do whichever you feel like, use "black" and defend yourself if someone tries to call you a bigot, or just say, "African American". A little more long winded and tedious, sure. But it's PC and you won't get called a racist.
I thought that the African American/Black community were repatriating the word Black? [/b]
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the "black community" isn't homogeneous.

[Tower of Bebel]

Contextual. I try to say "black colour", "black/dark skin" or "african" instead of just "black/dark". But does it make any sence? It's just contextual.

[blackstone]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 10:02 am
Contextual. I try to say "black colour", "black/dark skin" or "african" instead of just "black/dark". But does it make any sence? It's just contextual.
What!? Even worse!

You say,

"I'm talking about that black skin girl?" or "That dark skin girl"

"I'm talking about that black coloured girl"

Do you do that with whites and Asians as well or only people of African descent?

[lvleph]

Originally posted by blackstone+November 16, 2007 09:33 am--> (blackstone @ November 16, 2007 09:33 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 07:31 am

[email protected] 16, 2007 03:45 am
Speaking as an African "American" myself, I don't see any problem with using "black" as an adjective for description, considering it's not in a racist or negative context. Just like I might say "white" to describe caucasian person.

Interestingly enough, these are the only two groups where it's acceptable to classify them as colors. When was the last time you heard anyone say, "I live next door to a really nice yellow guy."?

However, It's prevalent among many more conscious African "Americans" that the word, "black", is racist by definition.

For example, by looking up "Black" in the dictionary, these are the type of things you will see:

Black

soiled or stained with dirt: That shirt was black within an hour.

gloomy; pessimistic; dismal: a black outlook.

deliberately; harmful; inexcusable: a black lie.

boding ill; sullen or hostile; threatening: black words; black looks.

without any moral quality or goodness; evil; wicked: His black heart has concocted yet another black deed.

based on the grotesque, morbid, or unpleasant aspects of life: black comedy; black humor.

And that's only a few selection, there's more. But moving on, look up White:

White

of the color of pure snow

morally pure; innocent.

without malice; harmless: white magic

auspicious or fortunate.

Slang. decent, honorable, or dependable: That's very white of you. :rolleyes:

I hope this helped.

Even with the above, I'm still not offended with anyone saying things like "black guy" etc. but I am not a spokesperson for all Blacks, so you still might offend some people.

I would say do whichever you feel like, use "black" and defend yourself if someone tries to call you a bigot, or just say, "African American". A little more long winded and tedious, sure. But it's PC and you won't get called a racist.
I thought that the African American/Black community were repatriating the word Black?
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the "black community" isn't homogeneous. [/b]
That is not really what I meant. I guess I should not have used the term community to refer to every Black/African American. A good film that shows that point is Bamboozled. That film is very good.

[lvleph]

Originally posted by blackstone+November 16, 2007 10:11 am--> (blackstone @ November 16, 2007 10:11 am)
[email protected] 16, 2007 10:02 am
Contextual. I try to say "black colour", "black/dark skin" or "african" instead of just "black/dark". But does it make any sence? It's just contextual.
What!? Even worse!

You say,

"I'm talking about that black skin girl?" or "That dark skin girl"

"I'm talking about that black coloured girl"

Do you do that with whites and Asians as well or only people of African descent? [/b]
White people refer to other white people using the color of their skin. At least I have. I refer to someone as tan or pale.

[blackstone]

Originally posted by lvleph+November 16, 2007 11:20 am--> (lvleph @ November 16, 2007 11:20 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 10:11 am

[email protected] 16, 2007 10:02 am
Contextual. I try to say "black colour", "black/dark skin" or "african" instead of just "black/dark". But does it make any sence? It's just contextual.
What!? Even worse!

You say,

"I'm talking about that black skin girl?" or "That dark skin girl"

"I'm talking about that black coloured girl"

Do you do that with whites and Asians as well or only people of African descent?
White people refer to other white people using the color of their skin. At least I have. I refer to someone as tan or pale. [/b]
So if you are trying to put someone out in a roomful of people, you say, that tan guy right there? I think more than likely you'll say, the guy in the red shirt. Or the tall guy in the red shirt,etc before you refer to his skin color(when it comes to white people). Or you refer to someone as the tan John?

Maybe you do, but can you argue that that is normal behavior?

[lvleph]

Originally posted by blackstone+November 16, 2007 11:31 am--> (blackstone @ November 16, 2007 11:31 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 11:20 am

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 10:11 am

[email protected] 16, 2007 10:02 am
Contextual. I try to say "black colour", "black/dark skin" or "african" instead of just "black/dark". But does it make any sence? It's just contextual.
What!? Even worse!

You say,

"I'm talking about that black skin girl?" or "That dark skin girl"

"I'm talking about that black coloured girl"

Do you do that with whites and Asians as well or only people of African descent?
White people refer to other white people using the color of their skin. At least I have. I refer to someone as tan or pale.
So if you are trying to put someone out in a roomful of people, you say, that tan guy right there? I think more than likely you'll say, the guy in the red shirt. Or the tall guy in the red shirt,etc before you refer to his skin color(when it comes to white people). Or you refer to someone as the tan John?

Maybe you do, but can you argue that that is normal behavior? [/b]
I guess the persons skin color would have to be extreme, before it was used in that context.

[Tower of Bebel]

Originally posted by blackstone+November 16, 2007 05:11 pm--> (blackstone @ November 16, 2007 05:11 pm)
[email protected] 16, 2007 10:02 am
Contextual. I try to say "black colour", "black/dark skin" or "african" instead of just "black/dark". But does it make any sence? It's just contextual.
What!? Even worse!

You say,

"I'm talking about that black skin girl?" or "That dark skin girl"

"I'm talking about that black coloured girl"

Do you do that with whites and Asians as well or only people of African descent? [/b]
You&#39;ve put it out of context <_< . I mean when you discribe someone. Like, if you refer to someone as tall, with black hear and dark eyes many might say they don&#39;t know who you mean. When you add this person has a darker skin they might know who you mean (obviously not when your amongst Afro-Americans since all of them are, you know, black).

Btw, The region where I live is far from mulitcultural and so people are like me are less experienced with they way you correctly discribe someone who&#39;s black. And we speak Dutch, which means we sometimes have another perception of the words we use.

[blackstone]

Originally posted by Rakunin+November 16, 2007 12:04 pm--> (Rakunin @ November 16, 2007 12:04 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 05:11 pm

[email protected] 16, 2007 10:02 am
Contextual. I try to say "black colour", "black/dark skin" or "african" instead of just "black/dark". But does it make any sence? It&#39;s just contextual.
What&#33;? Even worse&#33;

You say,

"I&#39;m talking about that black skin girl?" or "That dark skin girl"

"I&#39;m talking about that black coloured girl"

Do you do that with whites and Asians as well or only people of African descent?
You&#39;ve put it out of context <_< . I mean when you discribe someone. Like, if you refer to someone as tall, with black hear and dark eyes many might say they don&#39;t know who you mean. When you add this person has a darker skin they might know who you mean (obviously not when your amongst Afro-Americans since all of them are, you know, black).

Btw, The region where I live is far from mulitcultural and so people are like me are less experienced with they way you correctly discribe someone who&#39;s black. And we speak Dutch, which means we sometimes have another perception of the words we use. [/b]
I&#39;m sorry for being harsh and i take into consideration that you are Dutch. But i just want you to know that some African American&#39;s may find it offensive if you refer to them as that "dark skin or black skin" person or by the shade of their complexion.

[Communist Pear]

Originally posted by blackstone+November 16, 2007 05:14 pm--> (blackstone &#064; November 16, 2007 05:14 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 12:04 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 05:11 pm

[email protected] 16, 2007 10:02 am
Contextual. I try to say "black colour", "black/dark skin" or "african" instead of just "black/dark". But does it make any sence? It&#39;s just contextual.
What&#33;? Even worse&#33;

You say,

"I&#39;m talking about that black skin girl?" or "That dark skin girl"

"I&#39;m talking about that black coloured girl"

Do you do that with whites and Asians as well or only people of African descent?
You&#39;ve put it out of context <_< . I mean when you discribe someone. Like, if you refer to someone as tall, with black hear and dark eyes many might say they don&#39;t know who you mean. When you add this person has a darker skin they might know who you mean (obviously not when your amongst Afro-Americans since all of them are, you know, black).

Btw, The region where I live is far from mulitcultural and so people are like me are less experienced with they way you correctly discribe someone who&#39;s black. And we speak Dutch, which means we sometimes have another perception of the words we use.
I&#39;m sorry for being harsh and i take into consideration that you are Dutch. But i just want you to know that some African American&#39;s may find it offensive if you refer to them as that "dark skin or black skin" person or by the shade of their complexion. [/b]
Uh, lol? You certainly aren&#39;t the only country that has "dark-skinned people". We just call them "zwart" which translates directly to black. We caucasians call ourselves "blank", which means just that: blank. And you should note that we have far more cultures in our society. We don&#39;t make a lot of trouble about how we call each other. I know it can be used as a racist word, but it about how people are (on the inside) and not about how you call them

[blackstone]

Originally posted by Derk+November 16, 2007 01:14 pm--> (Derk @ November 16, 2007 01:14 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 05:14 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 12:04 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 05:11 pm

[email protected] 16, 2007 10:02 am
Contextual. I try to say "black colour", "black/dark skin" or "african" instead of just "black/dark". But does it make any sence? It&#39;s just contextual.
What&#33;? Even worse&#33;

You say,

"I&#39;m talking about that black skin girl?" or "That dark skin girl"

"I&#39;m talking about that black coloured girl"

Do you do that with whites and Asians as well or only people of African descent?
You&#39;ve put it out of context <_< . I mean when you discribe someone. Like, if you refer to someone as tall, with black hear and dark eyes many might say they don&#39;t know who you mean. When you add this person has a darker skin they might know who you mean (obviously not when your amongst Afro-Americans since all of them are, you know, black).

Btw, The region where I live is far from mulitcultural and so people are like me are less experienced with they way you correctly discribe someone who&#39;s black. And we speak Dutch, which means we sometimes have another perception of the words we use.
I&#39;m sorry for being harsh and i take into consideration that you are Dutch. But i just want you to know that some African American&#39;s may find it offensive if you refer to them as that "dark skin or black skin" person or by the shade of their complexion.
Uh, lol? You certainly aren&#39;t the only country that has "dark-skinned people". We just call them "zwart" which translates directly to black. We caucasians call ourselves "blank", which means just that: blank. And you should note that we have far more cultures in our society. We don&#39;t make a lot of trouble about how we call each other. I know it can be used as a racist word, but it about how people are (on the inside) and not about how you call them [/b]
As i said "But i just want you to know that some African American&#39;s may find it offensive if you refer to them as that "dark skin or black skin" person or by the shade of their complexion." America has a certain history which is different than the history of other countries. You can prolly refer to people as Negroes in spanish-speaking countries, but it is taboo, here in America because of it&#39;s historical context.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 16, 2007 08:26 am
Here in Australia I (personally) talk about black fellas and white fellas.

It is stupid, because &#39;white&#39; people aren&#39;t white, and &#39;black&#39; people aren&#39;t black, yet that is how things are...


I personally think it does depend on the context, I also think that the majority of time it doesn&#39;t mean shit.

And if someone (or a form) asks your for your "race", you should reply (or write) &#39;none&#39;, or &#39;race does not exist&#39;, or &#39;race is a racist reactionary theory propagated by stupid right-wing fuckers&#39;.
I think saying people are black or white is really a metaphor. It&#39;s not meant to suggest that a persons skin color IS black or white.

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 08:43 pm
Today I was talking to a friend of mine and her friend is an african american. I said the word black to decribe the girl because my friend knows many girl of that name.When I said "black",a black man behind me stood up and called me a racist fuck. Now, do you think that was racist, or do you think the man was over reacting?
Over-reacting. Majorly. I think that this country has a lot more race-relation problems than you calling someone black.

I&#39;m just going to act on the postulate that this guy wanted you to say &#39;African-American&#39;. Not all blacks are from Africa, and not all blacks are American.


BTW it&#39;s pretty stupid to call whites caucasians, as most whites are ethnically derived from Europe, not a sparsely populated Eurasian desert/mountain region.

[blackstone]

Originally posted by COMRADE CRUM+November 16, 2007 03:21 pm--> (COMRADE CRUM @ November 16, 2007 03:21 pm)
[email protected] 15, 2007 08:43 pm
Today I was talking to a friend of mine and her friend is an african american. I said the word black to decribe the girl because my friend knows many girl of that name.When I said "black",a black man behind me stood up and called me a racist fuck. Now, do you think that was racist, or do you think the man was over reacting?
Over-reacting. Majorly. I think that this country has a lot more race-relation problems than you calling someone black.

I&#39;m just going to act on the postulate that this guy wanted you to say &#39;African-American&#39;. Not all blacks are from Africa, and not all blacks are American.


BTW it&#39;s pretty stupid to call whites caucasians, as most whites are ethnically derived from Europe, not a sparsely populated Eurasian desert/mountain region. [/b]
if most whites are derived from europe, then why arent most if not all blacks derived from Africa?

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by blackstone+November 16, 2007 03:23 pm--> (blackstone @ November 16, 2007 03:23 pm)
Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 16, 2007 03:21 pm

[email protected] 15, 2007 08:43 pm
Today I was talking to a friend of mine and her friend is an african american. I said the word black to decribe the girl because my friend knows many girl of that name.When I said "black",a black man behind me stood up and called me a racist fuck. Now, do you think that was racist, or do you think the man was over reacting?
Over-reacting. Majorly. I think that this country has a lot more race-relation problems than you calling someone black.

I&#39;m just going to act on the postulate that this guy wanted you to say &#39;African-American&#39;. Not all blacks are from Africa, and not all blacks are American.


BTW it&#39;s pretty stupid to call whites caucasians, as most whites are ethnically derived from Europe, not a sparsely populated Eurasian desert/mountain region.
if most whites are derived from europe, then why arent most if not all blacks derived from Africa? [/b]
You&#39;ve got a point, but it would be like calling blacks &#39;Jamaican-Americans&#39; when less than 1/4 of the population of blacks are from Jamaica.

[Question?]

When did we start calling eachother Black and White?
Where did the terms originate?

[Comrade Rage]

The terms originated in the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade.

I&#39;m not saying they&#39;re perfect, but they&#39;ve yet to be replaced.

[TC]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 01:43 am
Today I was talking to a friend of mine and her friend is an african american. I said the word black to decribe the girl because my friend knows many girl of that name.When I said "black",a black man behind me stood up and called me a racist fuck. Now, do you think that was racist, or do you think the man was over reacting?
To use black as an adjective meaning "of predominantly african descent" is not racist, but it seems implausible to me that a black guy would have called you a racist fuck if you weren&#39;t being a racist fuck. One can clearly imagine ways of refering to someone as black that would have seemed racist but without more detail its impossible to tell, just as using the word "gay" as a noun rather than an adjective typically sounds at least mildly homophobic.

[Question?]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 16, 2007 08:51 pm
The terms originated in the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade.

I&#39;m not saying they&#39;re perfect, but they&#39;ve yet to be replaced.
Should we just abolish the terms alltogether?

Maybe this man that called whats his name a racist fuck was knowledgble of where the word came from

Is there a need to replace the terms?

[synthesis]

I usually use the word "black" because I have never heard a single black person use the term "African-American" outside an academic setting. Based on tone and context, however, "black" can be used to express the same racist concepts as "Negro" or the n-word, so you really can&#39;t say one way or the other whether or not the word is inherently racist.

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by Question?+November 16, 2007 04:13 pm--> (Question? @ November 16, 2007 04:13 pm)
Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 16, 2007 08:51 pm
The terms originated in the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade.

I&#39;m not saying they&#39;re perfect, but they&#39;ve yet to be replaced.
Should we just abolish the terms alltogether?

Maybe this man that called whats his name a racist fuck was knowledgble of where the word came from

Is there a need to replace the terms? [/b]
Well, if you are describing a person&#39;s appearance, yes.


Kun Fanâ
I usually use the word "black" because I have never heard a single black person use the term "African-American" outside an academic setting.
Same here.

[Question?]

Originally posted by Kun Fanâ@November 16, 2007 09:15 pm
I usually use the word "black" because I have never heard a single black person use the term "African-American" outside an academic setting. Based on tone and context, however, "black" can be used to express the same racist concepts as "Negro" or the n-word, so you really can&#39;t say one way or the other whether or not the word is inherently racist.
Is there anything you could say? Why arent white people called Caucasian-American? Even most of us arent from the Caucasian mountains at all.

[Goatse]

In my opinion (although I&#39;m sure many of you will disagree) it&#39;s silly to define every word as being discriminatory or not. It entirely depends upon the context - the word "black" could be used in a racist way or not. Similar to the way that a lot of LGBT people refer to themselves as "queer". Some of my friends call me "faggot" but I don&#39;t care, because I know they&#39;re joking. Similarly I was once accused of being "queer" by someone I certainly am not friends with and of course I took offence.

I really don&#39;t get why people get worked up over single words but fail to see the bigger picture...

[TC]

Originally posted by Mujer Libre+--> (Mujer Libre)Also, not all Black people are American. *gasp&#33;*
[/b]

rather offtopic though given that the origional poster already specified that the person he was refering to was African American and not of another black nationality.


Originally posted by apathy maybe+--> (apathy maybe)And if someone (or a form) asks your for your "race", you should reply (or write) &#39;none&#39;, or &#39;race does not exist&#39;, or &#39;race is a racist reactionary theory propagated by stupid right-wing fuckers&#39;.
[/b]

Sure if you want to screw with affirmative action and keep black people and other under-represented minorities out of the professional classes, thereby perpetuating racism towards them, go ahead and do that.

Race does exist, not biologically, but socially, politically, and culturally. Try driving while black or flying while middle eastern if you don&#39;t think so...oh wait you can&#39;t.


Originally posted by Yonkers
However, It&#39;s prevalent among many more conscious African "Americans" that the word, "black", is racist by definition.

I&#39;ve never heard anyone claim that "black" is racist by definition but if it really is "prevalent" than its clearly not among the &#33;"more conscious" African Americans. White people in America called black people "negro" or "colored" until the civil rights movement, the word black was one that was popularized by the African American civil rights movement as their prefered term. Thus the terms "black power" and the organisation "black panthers."


Originally posted by Yonkers
I would say do whichever you feel like, use "black" and defend yourself if someone tries to call you a bigot, or just say, "African American". A little more long winded and tedious, sure. But it&#39;s PC and you won&#39;t get called a racist.


It also has a much more narrow definition though, and frankly describing someone as a "______ American" rather than a "______ person" has a sort of psudo-nationalist inclusionist feel that has more political bagage than "black" does I think.

Besides lots of black American people are not "African Americans" in that they have recent African voluntary immigrant ancestory rather than ancestory in the culture that originated in the descendents of people who were brought over through the slave trade (such as Barak Obama for instance).


[email protected]
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the "black community" isn&#39;t homogeneous.

Of course not but neither is it very fair to say that a minority liberal view is "more conscious "


Rakunin
Contextual. I try to say "black colour", "black/dark skin" or "african" instead of just "black/dark". But does it make any sence? It&#39;s just contextual.

Thats just weird and creepy. It also sounds needlessly evasive as if being black is somehow a bad thing.

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 04:25 pm
In my opinion (although I&#39;m sure many of you will disagree) it&#39;s silly to define every word as being discriminatory or not. It entirely depends upon the context - the word "black" could be used in a racist way or not. Similar to the way that a lot of LGBT people refer to themselves as "queer". Some of my friends call me "faggot" but I don&#39;t care, because I know they&#39;re joking. Similarly I was once accused of being "queer" by someone I certainly am not friends with and of course I took offence.

I really don&#39;t get why people get worked up over single words but fail to see the bigger picture...
I don&#39;t either to tell you the truth. People are more uptight about racial language rather than actual racial problems.

Sort of like how Bill O&#39;Reilley got in trouble with the remarks about Sylvia&#39;s-a restaurant in Harlem my Dad eats at from time to time. O&#39;Reilley came to Sylvia&#39;s and was &#39;surprised&#39; "This is just like a normal restaurant&#33;"

There are a lot more bigoted things O&#39;Reilley has advocated and said on his radio and TV shows than that.

[Hiero]

Are you sure the guy wasn&#39;t just giving you shit? Some people just like to make others feel nervous, and there is nothing more nervous then the topic of race-relations.

[Bilan]

I&#39;ve always found it interesting how this issue plays out.
For example, there&#39;s two old women on a train, and you&#39;re with another cat.
Now, one of these women is a European (in this sense, "White"), and the other is Indigenous (which in this case, is "Black").
Now, to refer to the "White" woman, they&#39;d simply say "That old woman", but with the "Black" woman, she is "the old black woman".
It&#39;s really quite bizarre.

not explained very well

[Bilan]

Originally posted by Crum
I really don&#39;t get why people get worked up over single words but fail to see the bigger picture...
I don&#39;t either to tell you the truth. People are more uptight about racial language

This argument is actually really starting to piss me off, as I hear it quite alot.
It&#39;s like so many "White" people are so longing for the past of overt racial domination that they get pissed off because that (the overtness of it) is being challenged.
In my view, this is a classic case of unrecognized white privilege.

[Mujer Libre]

Originally posted by Proper Tea is [email protected] 16, 2007 11:48 pm
I&#39;ve always found it interesting how this issue plays out.
For example, there&#39;s two old women on a train, and you&#39;re with another cat.
Now, one of these women is a European (in this sense, "White"), and the other is Indigenous (which in this case, is "Black").
Now, to refer to the "White" woman, they&#39;d simply say "That old woman", but with the "Black" woman, she is "the old black woman".
It&#39;s really quite bizarre.

not explained very well
Yeah, this is to do with the perception of whiteness as the norm. Anything else is deviant and needs to be explained in relation to the norm.

It sounds like academic wankery, but it has a huge effect on the lives of people of colour, all the time. And rarrrrr it makes me angry&#33; Angry and tired.

[Marsella]

Originally posted by Mujer Libre+November 17, 2007 09:36 am--> (Mujer Libre @ November 17, 2007 09:36 am)
Proper Tea is [email protected] 16, 2007 11:48 pm
I&#39;ve always found it interesting how this issue plays out.
For example, there&#39;s two old women on a train, and you&#39;re with another cat.
Now, one of these women is a European (in this sense, "White"), and the other is Indigenous (which in this case, is "Black").
Now, to refer to the "White" woman, they&#39;d simply say "That old woman", but with the "Black" woman, she is "the old black woman".
It&#39;s really quite bizarre.

not explained very well
Yeah, this is to do with the perception of whiteness as the norm. Anything else is deviant and needs to be explained in relation to the norm.

It sounds like academic wankery, but it has a huge effect on the lives of people of colour, all the time. And rarrrrr it makes me angry&#33; Angry and tired. [/b]
Also, it is totally irrelevant.

Its like saying, &#39;Jodie, a blonde mother of four, has recently been appointed CEO of Wankerage Industries.&#39;

The personal characteristics have nothing to do with anything&#33;

You only have to read a page in your local newspaper to find such out-dated usages.

[Mujer Libre]

Originally posted by Martov+November 17, 2007 12:15 am--> (Martov @ November 17, 2007 12:15 am)
Originally posted by Mujer [email protected] 17, 2007 09:36 am

Proper Tea is [email protected] 16, 2007 11:48 pm
I&#39;ve always found it interesting how this issue plays out.
For example, there&#39;s two old women on a train, and you&#39;re with another cat.
Now, one of these women is a European (in this sense, "White"), and the other is Indigenous (which in this case, is "Black").
Now, to refer to the "White" woman, they&#39;d simply say "That old woman", but with the "Black" woman, she is "the old black woman".
It&#39;s really quite bizarre.

not explained very well
Yeah, this is to do with the perception of whiteness as the norm. Anything else is deviant and needs to be explained in relation to the norm.

It sounds like academic wankery, but it has a huge effect on the lives of people of colour, all the time. And rarrrrr it makes me angry&#33; Angry and tired.
Also, it is totally irrelevant.

Its like saying, &#39;Jodie, a blonde mother of four, has recently been appointed CEO of Wankerage Industries.&#39;

The personal characteristics have nothing to do with anything&#33;

You only have to read a page in your local newspaper to find such out-dated usages. [/b]
True, but unfortunately it&#39;s what people want to hear.

"Oh dear, it&#39;s ok. The criminal wasn&#39;t white&#33;"

Either that or they feel like they need to know someone&#39;s "race" so they know how to behave around them. That is,by unpacking their whole heap of assumptions about "those" particular people.


[/end rant]

[Taevus]

Originally posted by Mujer Libre+November 17, 2007 12:06 am--> (Mujer Libre &#064; November 17, 2007 12:06 am)
Proper Tea is [email protected] 16, 2007 11:48 pm
I&#39;ve always found it interesting how this issue plays out.
For example, there&#39;s two old women on a train, and you&#39;re with another cat.
Now, one of these women is a European (in this sense, "White"), and the other is Indigenous (which in this case, is "Black").
Now, to refer to the "White" woman, they&#39;d simply say "That old woman", but with the "Black" woman, she is "the old black woman".
It&#39;s really quite bizarre.

not explained very well
Yeah, this is to do with the perception of whiteness as the norm. Anything else is deviant and needs to be explained in relation to the norm.

It sounds like academic wankery, but it has a huge effect on the lives of people of colour, all the time. And rarrrrr it makes me angry&#33; Angry and tired.[/b]
"people of colour"? White/pink/whatever is a colour too you know :P
Also, perception of whiteness as the norm....well you grow up in a predominantly white area, is it not the norm? When we want to pick out someone or try and refresh another&#39;s memory, what do we do? We select what we see as the most distinguishing thing about their appearance or personality, as it&#39;s the most likely for the other person to get. If your particular group of acquaintances (or whatever, this is just an example) only has one black person for instance, it&#39;s easier to just say "yeah that black dude/gal, remember?" as it&#39;s quite a visual distinguishing feature if the rest are nonblack; there&#39;s no real way to confuse. In a predominantly black area/country, it&#39;d be equally as useful to distinguish someone as "that white guy, you remember?". It&#39;s just helpful if you can give as much details in a few words as possible in this type of casual communication. Other such words being "foreigner, <insert nationality>, <hair colour>, etc".
I don&#39;t think people should get so uptight about it, it&#39;s clearly not meant in any sort of harmful way and that should really be what matters. I&#39;d have to guess it&#39;d to with being different; big deal, everyones different. What do you want, someone to recite your life story for you? Are you ashamed of yourself or something?


edit - in regards to the new posts above which came as I was typing, yeah that kind of stuff is pretty meaningless. When was the media ever good?

edit 2- in regards to the original topic title on the word &#39;black&#39; itself...at least from where I grew up in England this was the only word of choice. "African American" isn&#39;t really applicable outside America and not all &#39;black&#39; people are African anyway, so it&#39;s just misleading. You can argue that black is a little misleading also, but so is white so, kind of a mute issue. I think people need to get less hung up about taking words so literally.

[spartan]

Yeah i suppose that alot, if not most, white people when they see another white person dont say to themselves "There is a fellow white person" and yet when they see a black person they are more likely to think of them as a "black person" (as oppossed to just being a person).

Mind you do black people think the same way when it comes to white people?

What i mean is do black people, when they see another black person, think of them as just a person but when seeing a white person think of them as a "white person"?

Man that was difficult to word&#33; :lol:

[Taevus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 12:29 am
Yeah i suppose that alot, if not most, white people when they see another white person dont say to themselves "There is a fellow white person" and yet when they see a black person they are more likely to think of them as a black person (as oppossed to just being a person).

Mind you do black people think the same way when it comes to white people?

What i mean is do black people, when they see another black person, think of them as just a person but when seeing a white person think of them as a white person?
I&#39;d imagine it works both ways.

Acknowledging our differences and celebrating them is far more comfortable for me than this "WE ARE ALL THE SAME AND HAVE NO INDIVIDUAL IDENTITY" idea. Not frickin&#39; robots.

[RGacky3]

If a guy called me racist for using black, I&#39;d punch him in the face, because at that point, he&#39;s just being an asshole.

Since when do you have to mince your words and be so careful with your language to not be a racist.

[Mujer Libre]

Ugh. This kind of shit is exactly what I&#39;m talking about.

Taevus, in a place like Australia everyone is taught that whiteness is the norm. The media assumes it. How is that a reasonable state of affairs?

And as for the term "people of colour," of course it&#39;s not a perfect term, but it&#39;s a useful term to describe &#39;non&#39;white&#39; people without using the negative, without defining them in relation to whiteness. Not that you seem to understand that. ;)

Society does not celebrate difference&#33; It celebrates whiteness. :lol: You need to read that Peggy McIntosh article.

And Spartan, as I&#39;ve said, we&#39;re all taught to see whiteness as the norm, at least in the societies I&#39;ve lived in. Admittedly, I think things are a bit different in South Africa now, but in Australia that&#39;s definitely the case and I know anecdotally that this causes a whole bunch of problems for young "ethically diverse" (I put that in for lulz, that&#39;s the government&#39;s latest buzzword- and again assumes whiteness as the natural norm. Diverse? Divergent from WHAT exactly? Oh yeah, all pervasive whiteness) people.

[Taevus]

Originally posted by Mujer [email protected] 17, 2007 12:37 am
Ugh. This kind of shit is exactly what I&#39;m talking about.

Taevus, in a place like Australia everyone is taught that whiteness is the norm. The media assumes it. How is that a reasonable state of affairs?

And as for the term "people of colour," of course it&#39;s not a perfect term, but it&#39;s a useful term to describe &#39;non&#39;white&#39; people without using the negative, without defining them in relation to whiteness. Not that you seem to understand that. ;)

Society does not celebrate difference&#33; It celebrates whiteness. :lol: You need to read that Peggy McIntosh article.

And Spartan, as I&#39;ve said, we&#39;re all taught to see whiteness as the norm, at least in the societies I&#39;ve lived in. Admittedly, I think things are a bit different in South Africa now, but in Australia that&#39;s definitely the case and I know anecdotally that this causes a whole bunch of problems for young "ethically diverse" (I put that in for lulz, that&#39;s the government&#39;s latest buzzword- and again assumes whiteness as the natural norm. Diverse? Divergent from WHAT exactly? Oh yeah, all pervasive whiteness) people.
Well, if white people are in a majority in one place, it is rather the norm? Just as heterosexuality is the norm? Something being "the norm" doesn&#39;t automatically make anything else weird or negative. Why you have a problem with that, I don&#39;t really know.

I think that your definition of white and black differ from most peoples. Most people see them as a VERY general description of two contrasting skin colours, rather than white=innocent/lovely/whatever and black=dark/evil/whatever. If you choose to see things like the latter and take other people&#39;s meaning as your own then no wonder you&#39;re more likely to see everything negatively and potential racism that isn&#39;t there. I don&#39;t see white and black as positive or negative meanings at all, they&#39;re just neutral because they describe skin types/ethnicities, which are completely indifferent/neutral to me.

As for society, yeah well, I wasn&#39;t talking about society, I was talking about me, what I personally believe and would like to see. I think we can at least degree that society is far from ideal (isn&#39;t that why we&#39;re on revleft?).


edit - I suppose what I mean when I say things such as, e.g. above, bi/homosexuality not being weird/negative despite heterosexuality being "the norm", I mean that this applies to the logical and intelligent mind. Unfortunately society as a whole isn&#39;t often intelligent or logical, so take this into account.

[Mujer Libre]

The word "norm" as used in a sociological context means a lot more than what you think it means.

And if we&#39;re not talking about society, what are we talking about? FFS.

Also, most of the rest of your post consists of strawmen. can&#39;t be bothered, you&#39;re not engaging with my arguments at all&#33; You just keep repeating yourself.

[Bilan]

Originally posted by Taevus+November 17, 2007 10:33 am--> (Taevus @ November 17, 2007 10:33 am)
[email protected] 17, 2007 12:29 am
Yeah i suppose that alot, if not most, white people when they see another white person dont say to themselves "There is a fellow white person" and yet when they see a black person they are more likely to think of them as a black person (as oppossed to just being a person).

Mind you do black people think the same way when it comes to white people?

What i mean is do black people, when they see another black person, think of them as just a person but when seeing a white person think of them as a white person?
I&#39;d imagine it works both ways.

Acknowledging our differences and celebrating them is far more comfortable for me than this "WE ARE ALL THE SAME AND HAVE NO INDIVIDUAL IDENTITY" idea. Not frickin&#39; robots. [/b]
No one has ever suggested doing that.
That is simply far right propaganda.
To recognize people as people is not to devalue them as human beings.
To recognize a person, whether "white" or not, as opposed to a "White person" and a "Black person" as if there is some giant, genetic (or w.e.) difference, is not devaluing, or trivializing people.
That is absurd.

[Taevus]

Originally posted by Mujer [email protected] 17, 2007 01:24 am
The word "norm" as used in a sociological context means a lot more than what you think it means.

And if we&#39;re not talking about society, what are we talking about? FFS.

Also, most of the rest of your post consists of strawmen. can&#39;t be bothered, you&#39;re not engaging with my arguments at all&#33; You just keep repeating yourself.
The part were I said "not about society" was related to the "I think we should celebrate..." thing you replied to earlier, I didn&#39;t make this clear. It&#39;s 3.35am here, my concentration isn&#39;t at its best.

It&#39;s interesting to see that you can&#39;t be bothered to debate with me based on the fact I rarely post here or get engaged in political things, as if that somehow devalues me and makes me unworthy of you "being bothered". Interesting meaning silly.

And I was engaging your views, you said that it&#39;s "taught" that whiteness is the norm, and I was saying that well, physically, in the countries where whites are in the majority such as Australia you mentioned, well something that is common and widespread is "the norm", it&#39;s not really anything to do with teaching (although if we look on a GLOBAL scale, I might agree that people aren&#39;t educated enough about other countries and cultures, which is a shame).

I also do have some experience in being one "outside the norm" as such - I moved to Finland fairly recently, which as you may know is a VERY homogenous country. My dark hair and features aren&#39;t natural to the Finnish genes and I of course don&#39;t speak the language well, so I stick out a fair amount. Aswell as being homosexual, but that isn&#39;t relevant to this topic (or to me much as a person, I find).

I AM trying to debate rather than express my own views repeatedly without reference or relevance. Going to bed now as I think I&#39;m keeping my flatmate awake.


No one has ever suggested doing that.
That is simply far right propaganda.
To recognize people as people is not to devalue them as human beings.
To recognize a person, whether "white" or not, as opposed to a "White person" and a "Black person" as if there is some giant, genetic (or w.e.) difference, is not devaluing, or trivializing people.
That is absurd.
Hmms, I think I wrote that badly. Of course I see everyone as a person, but I acknowledge someone black as black, someone asian as asian, someone white as white, just as I acknowledge a man as a man and a woman as a woman. Unnecessary perhaps but I think what you suggest is rather out of proportion.

[Bilan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 11:48 am

Hmms, I think I wrote that badly. Of course I see everyone as a person, but I acknowledge someone black as black, someone asian as asian, someone white as white, just as I acknowledge a man as a man and a woman as a woman. Unnecessary perhaps but I think what you suggest is rather out of proportion.
How is it "out of proportion", exactly?

[msucommie77]

as a professor of mine said: "If black was a good enough word for Malcolm X, it&#39;s more than good enough for me."

[Taevus]

Originally posted by Proper Tea is Theft+November 17, 2007 03:53 am--> (Proper Tea is Theft @ November 17, 2007 03:53 am)
[email protected] 17, 2007 11:48 am

Hmms, I think I wrote that badly. Of course I see everyone as a person, but I acknowledge someone black as black, someone asian as asian, someone white as white, just as I acknowledge a man as a man and a woman as a woman. Unnecessary perhaps but I think what you suggest is rather out of proportion.
How is it "out of proportion", exactly? [/b]
As in "ZOMG FARRIGHTPROPAGANDACOPTER". The hell?

[Bilan]

Originally posted by Taevus+November 17, 2007 08:49 pm--> (Taevus @ November 17, 2007 08:49 pm)
Originally posted by Proper Tea is [email protected] 17, 2007 03:53 am

[email protected] 17, 2007 11:48 am

Hmms, I think I wrote that badly. Of course I see everyone as a person, but I acknowledge someone black as black, someone asian as asian, someone white as white, just as I acknowledge a man as a man and a woman as a woman. Unnecessary perhaps but I think what you suggest is rather out of proportion.
How is it "out of proportion", exactly?
As in "ZOMG FARRIGHTPROPAGANDACOPTER". The hell? [/b]
Yeah, cool, hyperbole is awesome.
But actually, what you were saying is far right propaganda.
Yeah, you might have actually just articulated your point badly, doesn&#39;t mean what you actually said was okay.

[Bilan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 05:12 pm
as a professor of mine said: "If black was a good enough word for Malcolm X, it&#39;s more than good enough for me."
:lol:
Though, again, it&#39;s still contextual. The use of it in certain situations can be racist, or can come off that way.

[msucommie77]

Originally posted by Proper Tea is Theft+November 17, 2007 12:37 pm--> (Proper Tea is Theft @ November 17, 2007 12:37 pm)
[email protected] 17, 2007 05:12 pm
as a professor of mine said: "If black was a good enough word for Malcolm X, it&#39;s more than good enough for me."
:lol:
Though, again, it&#39;s still contextual. The use of it in certain situations can be racist, or can come off that way. [/b]
i suppose i agree. People could use the word black in a racist way, but if someone is using it to be politically correct, i see no problem with it.

[Tower of Bebel]

Originally posted by Tragic Clown+--> (Tragic Clown)Thats just weird and creepy. It also sounds needlessly evasive as if being black is somehow a bad thing. [/b]

Yes, I know. Maybe we all should follow RGacky3&#39;s advice.


RGacky3
If a guy called me racist for using black, I&#39;d punch him in the face, because at that point, he&#39;s just being an asshole.

Since when do you have to mince your words and be so careful with your language to not be a racist.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by msucommie77+November 17, 2007 05:12 pm--> (msucommie77 &#064; November 17, 2007 05:12 pm) as a professor of mine said: "If black was a good enough word for Malcolm X, it&#39;s more than good enough for me." [/b]
Malcolm X actually used the word Negro quite a lot in his speeches as well, and later favoured the term Afro-American, as in the organisation he founded shortly before his murder - The organisation of Afro-American Unity.

But yeah - sorry to spoil a good anecdote :blush:


Rakunin
Yes, I know. Maybe we all should follow RGacky3&#39;s advice.

Ewww, i really hope you&#39;re kidding :unsure:

Only a frickin&#39; idiot responds to an accusation of racism with an automatic punch to the face :wacko:

Coz sometimes (well, a lot of the time really) people say stuff that is actually racist.

It&#39;s not as if all accusations of racism are false - so why does it make sense to respond immediately with violence? That&#39;s treating the accusation as false right-off-the-bat.

[apathy maybe]

Originally posted by TragicClown+November 16, 2007 11:34 pm--> (TragicClown @ November 16, 2007 11:34 pm)
apathy maybe
And if someone (or a form) asks your for your "race", you should reply (or write) &#39;none&#39;, or &#39;race does not exist&#39;, or &#39;race is a racist reactionary theory propagated by stupid right-wing fuckers&#39;.


Sure if you want to screw with affirmative action and keep black people and other under-represented minorities out of the professional classes, thereby perpetuating racism towards them, go ahead and do that.

Race does exist, not biologically, but socially, politically, and culturally. Try driving while black or flying while middle eastern if you don&#39;t think so...oh wait you can&#39;t.
[/b]
I actually fail to see how it isn&#39;t reactionary to include a box on a form for "race".

Race is an outdated, stupid, reactionary theory, and to promote the idea that it exists (through, for example, having boxes on forms), is stupid, reactionary etc.

It doesn&#39;t matter what reason that box is there for. It doesn&#39;t matter if that box is there to promote "affirmative action".


I don&#39;t know how things work in the USA, but here in Australia we have the optional tick-box on many forms, "Are you of Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander decent". This is for a few different reasons, including affirmative action. But is definitely isn&#39;t promoting the idea of race&#33; You can be white as white, and still tick that box (assuming that you have some Aboriginal or Torres Strait ancestors).

If people of African decent in the US are being treated unequally (which I have no doubt they are), you could have a tick box, "Are you of African decent?" which would negate the whole thing about race. It would still enable the same positive aspects of a university (for example) knowing this information, but it removes the idea of race.


OK, and let&#39;s look at flying or driving. How does having a box on a form enable a "black" person to drive? Or someone who looks vaguely "Arabic" from flying? It doesn&#39;t. If anything, I would imagine, having &#39;race&#39; on the drivers licence application form is more like to have black people refused their drivers licence.

Yes race exists as a societal concept, but promoting the existence of it doesn&#39;t help anyone.

(And while on forms, and now going off topic: if your name sounds vaguely "Arabic", or what sounds "Arabic" to an ignorant person, then you still run the risk of being profiled.)

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 07:51 pm
You can prolly refer to people as Negroes in spanish-speaking countries, but it is taboo, here in America because of it&#39;s historical context.
Yup. In Dutch, the word "neger" (negro) isn&#39;t normally used in an offensive or racist way. Same with "zwart" (black). I don&#39;t quite see the point of using "African" when referring to skin colour. After all, they&#39;re Dutch people whose ancestors were taken from Africa and sent to the Antilles or Suriname. Seems kind of pointless to still consider them African when they have so much more in common with the Netherlands, the Antilles or Suriname.

By the way, wasn&#39;t "negro" acceptable in America for some time during the 20th century? I certainly recall reading old CPUSA documents from the 30s calling for the national liberation of "negroes".

[TC]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 06:10 am

What are you saying here? Do you mean the majority of African American descendants are from voluntary immigrants from Africa and not the slave trade diaspora? If that is what you mean, you are incorrect.
No I said "lots" not "a majority", clearly they are a minority of black people but still an example of where "african american" doesn&#39;t necessarily include everyone who is both black and american, (besides, someone from a white african family who was born in america would be both &#39;african&#39; and &#39;american&#39; but clearly not &#39;african american&#39;)

I was just trying to show that the two terms can&#39;t be used interchangably. Besides how would you describe black people in other countries, or black people in Africa (African African??).

I just mean to say that both terms are useful as they mean slightly different things and neither are racist.

[rouchambeau]

Since when do you have to mince your words and be so careful with your language to not be a racist.
There are many people who don&#39;t run into this problem, so there must be something wrong with the way you&#39;re using language.

Really, if you&#39;re walking on eggshells just trying to talk about race, then you might be a racist.

[Redmau5]

One thing that needs to be realized is that all Black people are from Africa

I&#39;m pretty sure that all people came from Africa.

[Vanguard1917]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 16, 2007 09:34 pm
People are more uptight about racial language rather than actual racial problems.
Good point. This sort of &#39;anti-racism&#39; is really just about promoting a new kind of speech etiquette. As such, it&#39;s a stick which snobby middle class liberals use to beat the &#39;ignorant&#39; white masses, who are apparently not up-to-date with all the new trendy PC words and labels.

[blackstone]

Originally posted by Vanguard1917+November 19, 2007 11:28 am--> (Vanguard1917 @ November 19, 2007 11:28 am)
COMRADE [email protected] 16, 2007 09:34 pm
People are more uptight about racial language rather than actual racial problems.
Good point. This sort of &#39;anti-racism&#39; is really just about promoting a new kind of speech etiquette. As such, it&#39;s a stick which snobby middle class liberals use to beat the &#39;ignorant&#39; white masses, who are apparently not up-to-date with all the new trendy PC words and labels. [/b]
Too bad racial language helps to perpetuate racial problems.

[apathy maybe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2007 09:28 pm
One thing that needs to be realized is that all Black people are from Africa, regardless of their origin.
Wrong. Unless you mean all people (which I&#39;m sure you would agree is true, but wasn&#39;t your point).

Australian Aboriginal people are generally considered "black", but most definitely are not "African" by any meaningful sense of the word.

[spartan]

Indigenous people from North/South/Central America are, of course, included in this statement also. However, I digress, because once again i say, people would rather kill you than admit they have black lineage.
I would&#39;nt be so sure about indigenous Americans being of black origin Yonkers&#33;

As most people think that indigenous Americans came from an Asian/Mongol/Siberian/Turkic background.

The theory is that they originally came from Siberia and during the last phase of the last ice age they crossed over the bering strait, which was frozen, into the soon to be broken off continent of America in modern day Alaska and then spread down into the rest of the continent of America.

Unless i misunderstood what you were saying?

********************

I just thought that i would add that not all black Africans are regarded as, lets get a bit scientific here, Negroid people.

Indeed the majority of Eritreans, Ethiopians and Somalians (Djibouti included), who have black skin colour, have Caucasian skulls and bone structures&#33;

Which basically makes them "white" people in all but skin colour (Which is black due to the warm enviroment that these people lve in).

I think this proves as well that people only get dark skin from living in hot enviroments for centuries as i have seen lots of third generation British born black people with very light brown skin colour which is obviously due to the cold enviroment that they live in.

Indeed i once saw a self described black person in Sweden who did not look black at all (Skin colour wise) and instead looked Mediterranean/Turkic with olive skin.

Also Ethiopian women were prized by Ottoman Turks as the most beautiful women in the world due to their pale skin colour (Most probably due to the cold enviroment in the mountainous areas of Ethiopia that they lived in at that time of the little ice ages which ended in 1850).

These women were frequently abducted by Ottoman raiders and sent to harems all over the Ottoman Empire.

I just thought that i would add that some skeletons of indigenous Americans found on the eastern side of the North American continent were known to have "Caucasian" features.

Now some people thought that the skeletons were recent and that the Caucasian "features" were probably due to the skeletons being those of a person of mixed white/indigenous American heritage.

This theory was disproven though when it was revealed that the skeletons actually originated from before the time of Christopher Colombous&#33;

Also does anyone remember this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewick_Man

[blackstone]

noooo

You can&#39;t have the words scientific and negroid in the same sentence. It voids your whole argument.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 09:02 pm
I just thought that i would add that not all black Africans are regarded as, lets get a bit scientific here, Negroid people.
Hey the scientific community of the late 19th/early 20th century called - yeah they&#39;ve been looking for you.

[spartan]

noooo

You can&#39;t have the words scientific and negroid in the same sentence. It voids your whole argument.

Hey the scientific community of the late 19th/early 20th century called - yeah they&#39;ve been looking for you.
I was taking the piss when i was saying "scientific" as i know that nowadays scietinsts dont even recognize "race" anymore as they have come to the conclusion that we are all humans and equal (Finally) but some of us have different features due to cultural, enviromenal and economic factors as well as different diets and food staples etc.

I am sorry that you did&#39;nt notice that.

Anyway my point was that not all people who are of a certain skin colour came from tyhe same continent.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by spartan+--> (spartan)I was taking the piss when i was saying "scientific" as i know that nowadays scietinsts dont even recognize "race" anymore as they have come to the conclusion that we are all humans and equal (Finally) but some of us have different features due to cultural, enviromenal and economic factors as well as different diets and food staples etc.[/b]

The term &#39;negroid&#39; and the concepts it represents did not fall from scientific use because scientists were converted to an ideology of liberal equality - but because the concept of &#39;negroids&#39; in and of itself was found to be false - from a scientific perspective. If you wish to make a legitimate point about humanity, i.e. &#39;some of us have different features due to cultural, enviromenal and economic factors as well as different diets and food staples etc.&#39; - why use outmoded language? That is what confused people, that and this stuff:


Originally posted by spartan+--> (spartan)Indeed the majority of Eritreans, Ethiopians and Somalians (Djibouti included), who have black skin colour, have Caucasian skulls and bone structures&#33;[/b]

How do &#39;Caucasian skulls and bone structures&#39; differ from non-&#39;Caucasian skulls and bone structures&#39;?

Further, what is a &#39;Caucasian&#39;? And what other &#39;types&#39; of humans are you contrasting &#39;Caucasians&#39; with? :unsure:


Originally posted by spartan

Which basically makes them "white" people in all but skin colour (Which is black due to the warm enviroment that these people lve in).

Except that skin colour is the primary social determinate for &#39;whiteness&#39; (which is a social category not a biological one). IE. There&#39;s no such thing as having &#39;white&#39; bones.


Originally posted by spartan

I think this proves as well that people only get dark skin from living in hot enviroments for centuries as i have seen lots of third generation British born black people with very light brown skin colour which is obviously due to the cold enviroment that they live in.

You seem to be proposing something along the lines of Lamarckism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism) - an outdated theory of human evolution.

Where did you learn these ideas you are proposing?

Usually one of the first things peeps learn in high-school biology is the erroneous nature of theory you are proposing (Lamarckism); which is then contrasted with the accepted theory of Charles Darwin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_evolution).

According to your profile you should be about 17, so this stuff should have already been covered at school...

Peoples skin colour usually does not change in three generations because of environmental factors. More likely it is because by the third generation the Black britons you&#39;re referring to were actually of mixed heritage, that is they were in fact bi or &#39;multi-racial&#39;.


[email protected]

Indeed i once saw a self described black person in Sweden who did not look black at all (Skin colour wise) and instead looked Mediterranean/Turkic with olive skin.

Because not all Black people have the same skin colour.


spartan

Anyway my point was that not all people who are of a certain skin colour came from tyhe same continent.

Are you talking about originally or later? I.E. Are you disputing the &#39;out-of-africa&#39; thesis or not?

[apathy maybe]

Originally posted by spartan
Anyway my point was that not all people who are of a certain skin colour came from tyhe same continent.
Indeed, which was my point. I think that you could have made your point better with out the "scientific" crap, I&#39;m glad you explained your position.


All people&#39;s come from Africa originally, but Australian Aboriginal people have been in Australia for at least 40 000 years (perhaps 60 000 or more&#33;). Which would tend to suggest that they are no longer &#39;African&#39; in any meaningful sense.

[LOTFW]

Nearly every black person I know uses the word black. I rarely hear the expression African American, and only in some formal or document situation.

[Dr Mindbender]

the biggest tragedy is that we still live in a world where we still feel these labels are necessary.

[Comrade Nadezhda]

What I notice the most is in America everyone is "white", "black", etc. No one refers to others or themselves as "american", everyone refers to themselves as their "race". Quite interesting, especially as I have traveled elsewhere. There are many places I can think of where if someone asks you your culture or ethnic background, origins, whatever people will respond - french, belgian, british, canadian, german, dutch, spanish, whatever- you don&#39;t hear a white person say "I&#39;m white" or something as you do in the U.S.

[w0lf]

I used to get pissed at people who call people of African descent black. I thought "African-American" was better, but then saw a Malcom X speech which said they were not American but Africans who live in America, so I stopped describing and segregating people of African descent.

[LOTFW]

"Why is it necessary for women athletes to prove themselves as women first, and talented athletes second?"
-Martina Navratilova

I refer to myself as an American, and refer to my students as Americans all the time. But it is shocking to some of my colleagues who are of Mexican or African decent when I do so. I could care less. I&#39;ll never identify my students as anything but Americans. I believe it is worng for anyone to classify them as otherwise.



I used to get pissed at people who call people of African descent black. I thought "African-American" was better, but then saw a Malcom X speech which said they were not American but Africans who live in America, so I stopped describing and segregating people of African descent.

I believe that while Malcom X and James Baldwin continued to refer to what was then called "Negros" or "Colored People", as Africans who were forced to be here. That, however, doesn&#39;t help in raising children in our American society. Americans of African decent who live in our modern times cannot be thought of as black Americans of the 1600s through 1800s. It&#39;s pretty silly. They&#39;re Americans. The battle(s) fought by Malcom X and James Baldwin are not the battles of today. The All African People&#39;s Revolutionary Party has &#036;0 in their treasury. They&#39;ve been a 100% failure at convincing African-Americans to "return to Africa" and create a scientific-socialist state.


Some of you will recall that one of Chief Justice Warren&#39;s views in Brown v. Topeka Board of Education, was that segregating children leave the child w/ a harmful view of themselves, regardless of whether the services are the same. It would be the same if we were to refer to black children from the get-go as "forcibly transplanted" citizens, or thought of them as some such.

Malcom X probably forgot that the only reason he was Muslim, was because Islam was forced upon the various tribes and nations of north Africa. I mention this because it always appeared that he viewed himself as Muslim, and not, "made to be Muslim".

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by LOTFW+--> (LOTFW)That, however, doesn&#39;t help in raising children in our American society.[/b]

Neither does racism; there&#39;s a reason why oppressed people do not always identify with the majority culture, what you call &#39;our American society.&#39;

Besides, what is the benefit of everyone identifying as American? Then the US will be a place of social harmony? &#39;National unity&#39; will be strengthened? The national ideology will be reinforced?


Originally posted by [email protected]
The battle(s) fought by Malcom X and James Baldwin are not the battles of today.

I disagree; as long as black people remain subject to racist oppression that battle continues.


LOTFW
Malcom X probably forgot that the only reason he was Muslim, was because Islam was forced upon the various tribes and nations of north Africa. I mention this because it always appeared that he viewed himself as Muslim, and not, "made to be Muslim".

That is a very long bow to draw.

Human beings are not born religious, nor are human societies created with religions built-in. In reality, religions evolve and spread - this is the case with all religions. With the exception of the people who founded any particular religion, all other adherents are &#39;only&#39; of that particular faith because of previous historical events.

Most christians do not view themselves as &#39;made to be christian&#39; as a result of events that occurred centuries ago; such as religious terror or Roman state-support etc. Those events have no continued relevance to the individual adherent, so to identify as a &#39;christian&#39; is not a problem. Malcolm X converted to Islam whilst in prison, not at the end of a sword in North Africa - so he has no problem identifying as a muslim - the ideas attached to this term hold a greater personal significance than the historical events which enabled the spread of those ideas.

[LOTFW]

QUOTE (LOTFW)
That, however, doesn&#39;t help in raising children in our American society.

Neither does racism; there&#39;s a reason why oppressed people do not always identify with the majority culture, what you call &#39;our American society.&#39;

Besides, what is the benefit of everyone identifying as American? Then the US will be a place of social harmony? &#39;National unity&#39; will be strengthened? The national ideology will be reinforced?


bleeding gums malatesta:

There really is no way around this issue in public schools. If we were not to view both black and white students as "Americans", and created from the beginning a different term for black children, ala X or Baldwin, we would be telling them from the moment they walked in the door they were less than others. It is the nature of children to try and get along with others and want to be accepted. To condition one group to view itself as "oppressed" or "not American" against a sea of Americans would be painful to watch. It is not a question of using one specific word to achieve social harmony or national unity. Its about not killing the spirits of kids when they come on to the playground or computer lab.


Regarding your argument about the long bow. Not so much. Whats a few centuries between friends? If X decries what "happened to his people" 350 years ago, he can do the same with what happened to them 1350 years ago. They lost their culture and beliefe system by the force of the Muslims. Why convert to your former oppressors? That would be the last thing I would do.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by LOTFW+--> (LOTFW)There really is no way around this issue in public schools. If we were not to view both black and white students as "Americans", and created from the beginning a different term for black children, ala X or Baldwin, we would be telling them from the moment they walked in the door they were less than others. It is the nature of children to try and get along with others and want to be accepted. To condition one group to view itself as "oppressed" or "not American" against a sea of Americans would be painful to watch. It is not a question of using one specific word to achieve social harmony or national unity. Its about not killing the spirits of kids when they come on to the playground or computer lab.
[/b]

I never suggested that some kids should be taught in school that they&#39;re not &#39;american&#39; because they&#39;re black etc. I was merely questioning your general support for national identity as identity, i.e.


Originally posted by me+--> (me)Besides, what is the benefit of everyone identifying as American? Then the US will be a place of social harmony? &#39;National unity&#39; will be strengthened? The national ideology will be reinforced?[/b]


---------------



[email protected]

They lost their culture and beliefe system by the force of the Muslims. Why convert to your former oppressors? That would be the last thing I would do.

Like i said, long bow. By this logic, most of the worlds religious adherents (not just muslims) would be converting to the religion of their &#39;former oppressors&#39; - in reality however, most people distinguish religious philosophy from the collective transhistorical actions of its adherents.

I.E. my whole last post:


me
Human beings are not born religious, nor are human societies created with religions built-in. In reality, religions evolve and spread - this is the case with all religions. With the exception of the people who founded any particular religion, all other adherents are &#39;only&#39; of that particular faith because of previous historical events.

Most christians do not view themselves as &#39;made to be christian&#39; as a result of events that occurred centuries ago; such as religious terror or Roman state-support etc. Those events have no continued relevance to the individual adherent, so to identify as a &#39;christian&#39; is not a problem. Malcolm X converted to Islam whilst in prison, not at the end of a sword in North Africa - so he has no problem identifying as a muslim - the ideas attached to this term hold a greater personal significance than the historical events which enabled the spread of those ideas.



Come on now, please address the crux of my argument - your last post was just a repetition.

[LOTFW]

There&#39;s really no need to discuss the religious thing any further. I repreated myself because I see an end to that aspect of the analysis.

Black Americans of the radical and partially radical left, who were formerly Christian and who, though never having been to the Middle East, converting to Islam do so, partially, as a rejection of Christianity and a statement of African identity, "robbed" from them by previous, ancestoral slave gathering.

But in doing so, they are disingenuous. In their interest in perging themselves of the ways of their oppressors, why not go beyond mere window dressing. Why not reject U.S. courts and the Bill of Rights? Why are black radicals who have converted to Islam, not also converting to OTHER aspects of African ways? I see a movement amoung African-American radical leftists to become Muslim, but not to reject our courts and civil protections, or our banks, or our money. That&#39;s all I&#39;m getting at. I&#39;m not religious, but choosing a religion as a political statement is absurd.



I never suggested that some kids should be taught in school that they&#39;re not &#39;american&#39; because they&#39;re black etc. I was merely questioning your general support for national identity as identity, i.e.

Right now, there is no other option. Children go to school and say the pledge of allegience, and participate in Thanksgiving plays, and plays about Washington, Lincoln, and King. They do all sorts of things that tie them to an "American national culture". I presume like me, you are an internationalist. But I&#39;m not going to be successful at getting the high school I work at to not play the Star Spangled Banner before tomorrow night&#39;s football game. Just like countless others here at the Rev Left board can&#39;t change the 100s of national/cappie things that are part of their daily lives. Until such is the case, ALL students must be treated equally in our social and culural identification process. To do otherwise, based on color, would be a step backwards for how children see themselves as human beings.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by LOTFW+--> (LOTFW)Black Americans of the radical and partially radical left, who were formerly Christian and who, though never having been to the Middle East, converting to Islam do so, partially, as a rejection of Christianity and a statement of African identity, "robbed" from them by previous, ancestoral slave gathering.[/b]

You&#39;re generalising; i think its more reasonable to say that Black american radicals who convert to Islam do so for a variety of reasons - who knows what these are? Certainly neither you or I can say with any credibility.


Originally posted by LOTFW+--> (LOTFW)
In their interest in perging themselves of the ways of their oppressors, why not go beyond mere window dressing. [/b]

This is fallacious; the point of changing religions is not to &#39;purge&#39; oneself of the oppressors &#39;ways&#39; (what a vague term) but of their religion - i don&#39;t see any evidence to suggest otherwise; certainly none to support the logic you present that is not speculation on your part.


Originally posted by LOTFW

Why not reject U.S. courts and the Bill of Rights?

What does rejecting these things entail?

Though i do think your argument is fallacious, nevertheless the majority of political radicals (and given the continued racism of the &#39;injustice system&#39; i think this has a particular resonance for black radicals) do politically reject that system; that is a component of political radicalism - opposing the present institutions.


Originally posted by LOTFW

Why are black radicals who have converted to Islam, not also converting to OTHER aspects of African ways?

I guess, because, not all black radical converts to Islam are ethnocentrists? Or indeed consider univeralist constructions like &#39;African ways&#39; to be valid?


[email protected]

I see a movement amoung African-American radical leftists to become Muslim, but not to reject our courts and civil protections, or our banks, or our money.

A movement?

Where do you see this movement?

Which groups and individuals are you talking about specifically?

Can you explain their ideas, or provide me a link where i can read them explained?



That&#39;s all I&#39;m getting at.

To be honest i think you&#39;re talking out of your arse and merely looking for excuses to bash black radicals.



LOTFW
Until such is the case, ALL students must be treated equally in our social and culural identification process. To do otherwise, based on color, would be a step backwards for how children see themselves as human beings.

How many times do i have to say &#39;i never suggested such a thing&#39; before you&#39;ll stop talking as if i had done so? This would be the second time in two consecutive posts that i&#39;ve had to correct you on this point.

Honestly.

[counterblast]

Originally posted by LOTFW

I see a movement amoung African-American radical leftists to become Muslim, but not to reject our courts and civil protections, or our banks, or our money.

Our courts/civil protections? Our banks/money?

Overlooking the sexually/racially/religiously discriminatory discretions of the "system" we live under for a second, who do you mean by "our"?&#33;?&#33;

Non-Muslim white radical leftist men? Sorry, try again.

[autrefois]

To answer the original question, Id say "black" is definately not racist

Its like calling someone white, or a Jew. Saying "black" is a derrogative term inherently insults blacks.

[Bilan]

Vanguard1917

As Blackstone said earlier, "Too bad racial language helps to perpetuate racial problems."

This facade you present us with is absurd. Language reinforces perceptions. It&#39;s not about being overly PC, and tip-toeing around issues, it&#39;s about realising how the fuck you affect people, and being willing to recognize that to smash racism, you have to smash it from all angles, and that includes abolishing racist language.

It&#39;s not about being "middle class" or "elite", it&#39;s about recognizing the racial structure of society, and the way language helps to defend white privilege, and racial oppression, and challenging it.
Your insults are merely petty slander to defend your fucking privilege.


&#39;ignorant&#39; white masses



Are you trying to say racism isn&#39;t ignorance? Are you going to tell me that the irrational xenophobic fears held by a large amount of people across the planet is not racist, and thus ignorant? or is not simply ignorant in itself?

[LOTFW]

Are you trying to say racism isn&#39;t ignorance? Are you going to tell me that the irrational xenophobic fears held by a large amount of people across the planet is not racist, and thus ignorant? or is not simply ignorant in itself?

My studies of history have shown me it is more common, throughout the world, to be racist than not so.

Hundreds of cultures have placed themselves as at "the center" of the world, and often, like the Japanese or the Inca or the Roman, their word for foreigner also meant the same thing as a negative person.

Attempting to accept different cultures while at the same time viewing them as equals is more or less a new idea.

[The Gulag]

What is to be said for all the blacks who are not from Africa? A small amount are from Oceania, or have been in charge of Caribbean islands for several hundred years. Besides, if people in the United States began having European-American organizations they would be labeled as racist. And what of Mixed Race? Are they going to "Black", "Yellow", "White", "Brown", what?

[w0lf]

Originally posted by The [email protected] 28, 2007 04:27 pm
What is to be said for all the blacks who are not from Africa? A small amount are from Oceania, or have been in charge of Caribbean islands for several hundred years. Besides, if people in the United States began having European-American organizations they would be labeled as racist. And what of Mixed Race? Are they going to "Black", "Yellow", "White", "Brown", what?
All "blacks" are from Africa. They were forced to leave.



Exactly, why do we have to label them. There human beings damnit. There not some freak of a creature, there civilized humans.

[RevMARKSman]

All "blacks" are from Africa. They were forced to leave.

All "humans" are from Africa.

Where do you draw the line?

[w0lf]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2007 09:26 pm

All "blacks" are from Africa. They were forced to leave.

All "humans" are from Africa.

Where do you draw the line?
Humans, animals. If I understood your question correctly.

edit: Humans actually originated in Mesopotamia [Modern day Iraq]

[Rasmus]

Well, in Denmark we&#39;re "lucky" enough that the verbal racism is past.

Too bad it didn&#39;t make racism past&#33; :o

Although, it&#39;s less towards black people, than people with arabic ancestry that are targets of the racists.

[bezdomni]

It wasn&#39;t the "African-American Panther Party", now was it?

[RedAnarchist]

Originally posted by w0lf+December 28, 2007 11:46 pm--> (w0lf @ December 28, 2007 11:46 pm)
[email protected] 28, 2007 09:26 pm

All "blacks" are from Africa. They were forced to leave.

All "humans" are from Africa.

Where do you draw the line?
Humans, animals. If I understood your question correctly.

edit: Humans actually originated in Mesopotamia [Modern day Iraq] [/b]
http://worldfamilies.net/migration_map_wfn.gif