why do we cry when people we love die?

[R_P_A_S]

I would like to think that most of you have cried, felt very sad when someone dear and close to you has died. Or maybe just the thought of having someone you love die makes you sad, worries you or brings a tear to your eyes.

I have thought about my parents passing away. and yeah, I feel a bit scared and sad. "what am i going to do?" "how am i going to take it?"

But then once I really think about death and what it entails for that person. It can't be all that bad for them. they get to rest FINALLY! away from all this bullshit. hopefully they lived their life to the fullest.

But all of us who are still alive. crying and complaining . "WHY!!!!! OH WHY?????" are just pretty much selfish. we are upset that they are gone. and wont be WITH US anymore. is not like we are sad and afraid that they are going to have a "bad afterlife" or because "being dead Hurts them!"

so do you guys think it has more to do with being selfish? than genuinely sad for them?

[Red Menace]

i'll admit, i am selfish, and i think most people are. You realize that person who died, you will never see them again. While I guess many are comforted by that thought, that they escape all the bullshit, i think most, myself included, realize that they will never see that person that they love again, and it is a really painful feeling.

[Dr Mindbender]

i lost my father earlier in the year and it was painful, not only for myself but for a variety of reasons. He was still a long way off pensionable age and full of life. Unfortunately he was struck down by a cause of nature. He still had an apetite for life, and still had plans for things he wanted to do in the future. He was enthusiatic about meeting my kids some day, among other things and he wasnt ready to go yet and was full of fear about going. His death probably would'nt have hit me so hard if he'd had a chance to tie up all those loose ends. When he went, it hit me, but also for him and not just myself. I know people will say ''yeah yeah, bullshit'' but it's true.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 14, 2007 07:02 pm
i lost my father earlier in the year and it was painful, not only for myself but for a variety of reasons. He was still a long way off pensionable age and full of life. Unfortunately he was struck down by a cause of nature. He still had an apetite for life, and still had plans for things he wanted to do in the future. He was enthusiatic about meeting my kids some day, among other things and he wasnt ready to go yet and was full of fear about going. His death probably would'nt have hit me so hard if he'd had a chance to tie up all those loose ends. When he went, it hit me, but also for him and not just myself. I know people will say ''yeah yeah, bullshit'' but it's true.
you know, I guess my post mainly talks about dying of old age. natural causes?

[Everyday Anarchy]

I think crying is a natural response to pain for nearly all mammals. Emotional pain comes with it for humans (Not sure if other mammals cry for emotions).

Feelings of love or passion can cause a human to become very attached, and when that love is violently and permanently taken from them, it is almost as if a part of their physical being is taken as well, thus pain.


At least that is what I've been led to believe is the reason for emotional tears.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by R_P_A_S+November 14, 2007 08:45 pm--> (R_P_A_S @ November 14, 2007 08:45 pm)
Ulster [email protected] 14, 2007 07:02 pm
i lost my father earlier in the year and it was painful, not only for myself but for a variety of reasons. He was still a long way off pensionable age and full of life. Unfortunately he was struck down by a cause of nature. He still had an apetite for life, and still had plans for things he wanted to do in the future. He was enthusiatic about meeting my kids some day, among other things and he wasnt ready to go yet and was full of fear about going. His death probably would'nt have hit me so hard if he'd had a chance to tie up all those loose ends. When he went, it hit me, but also for him and not just myself. I know people will say ''yeah yeah, bullshit'' but it's true.
you know, I guess my post mainly talks about dying of old age. natural causes? [/b]
in this case it was 'the big C'. :(

[Question?]

I remember when my Uncle died. Im not sure i felt all to sad, i was more happy for him, ive seen him almost non functional in a bed for a long time, he was diagnosed with MS a few years back..

What brought me to tears was my Aunt bursting out in tears on the floor, with my two 7 and 9 year old cousins beside her, trying to comfort her..

Having someone you love dearly die, never to see again, can be hard, maybe death is better for them, but with no doubt you cant help but feel selfish cuz you want to see them again so bad, just one more time.

[Comrade Rage]

My grandmother died this March 1 after a 6 day stay at a hospital. I cried when she passed, but I soon realized that it was really a blessing in disguise, as she was getting more and more confused in her final years, and progressively more frightened. I realized that I was really crying over my loss of her, rather than any concern for what had happened to her. (Not that it didn't concern me.)

[Pawn Power]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 11:50 pm
I would like to think that most of you have cried, felt very sad when someone dear and close to you has died. Or maybe just the thought of having someone you love die makes you sad, worries you or brings a tear to your eyes.

I have thought about my parents passing away. and yeah, I feel a bit scared and sad. "what am i going to do?" "how am i going to take it?"

But then once I really think about death and what it entails for that person. It can't be all that bad for them. they get to rest FINALLY! away from all this bullshit. hopefully they lived their life to the fullest.

But all of us who are still alive. crying and complaining . "WHY!!!!! OH WHY?????" are just pretty much selfish. we are upset that they are gone. and wont be WITH US anymore. is not like we are sad and afraid that they are going to have a "bad afterlife" or because "being dead Hurts them!"

so do you guys think it has more to do with being selfish? than genuinely sad for them?
Well, we should be sad right? With your reasoning, they have passed and now rest without all of the pain of living, but we must endure without them. So, we have every right to be sad and upset. They left us to this bullshit world and that they don't have to deal with anymore.

[Module]

Well, trying to sound as unpretentious as possible... If I truly thought that they would go into... heaven... for instance... the thought of somebody close to me dying becomes drastically less painful.
Of course people are sad when they lose somebody they love. The same way that they are sad when anything close to them ...ceases to exist, work, or live.
But it's not just that. I doubt that it's generally even mostly that for people.

People get sad at the thought of individual human beings dying that they've never even met before - I know I do.
I cried when I found out Dimebag Darrel died, for instance, and I've don't even listen to his music. (But then, I cry pretty damn easily,)
People get sad at the thought of ..dogs.. or cats dying, too. I'm sure
I think that most people find the thought of a living creature, with emotions, thoughts, loved ones, just ceasing to live very depressing... because it is a loss for the creature itself, or maybe even the world in general.
I'm just speaking generally. I'm aware some people are more sensitive to these things than others, but my point remains.

[MarxSchmarx]

There are plenty of reasons to be sad at the passing of a loved one. But as to why we cry, I always thought crying was a physiological stress-relieving response, kinda the opposite of adrenalin buildup. Obviously when we grieve we are stressed extremely stressed and therefore cry. At least that I thought was the "scientific" explanation.

[RedAnarchist]

Sometimes people may love two people equally but have different reactions to their deaths. My mother died a few yeasr ago and I was quite upset, but when my grandad died of cancer earlier this year, I wasn't as upset, mainly because his death was caused by cancer and we knew he was going to die, and in his last few months he was quite brave, even though he must have been in real pain (he actually lasted 7 months without chemotherapy, even though the doctors only gave him 3 to 6 months to live).

[Digitalis]

I find my self welling up when I realise I will never see said person again; I agree with Red Menace in that respect.

[Angry Young Man]

Maybe it's the shock of having someone who was always there gone forever. I was 10 when my mum died and I could only think about how she'll never be there for the rest of my life. I'm not saying it's worse than anyone else's grief, but it is pretty daunting when you're a kid who has been dependent on that person.

[LSD]

But all of us who are still alive. crying and complaining . "WHY!!!!! OH WHY?????" are just pretty much selfish.

Of course it's selfish, all emotions are ultimately selfish.

They're about how we feel, how we react; they are a manifestation of our cognitive reality. They can't be anything but selfish.

That's not "bad" mind you, emotions are supposed to be selfish, that's how they work. The sadness you feel when someone you care about dies, that's the grief of loss, of what you lost. Now that's a personal emotion, you might even call it a selfish one, but it's also a healthy one.

Because feeling sad over what you don't have anymore, especially when that thing was very emotionally important to you, is an essential step in coming to terms with what happened.

It's a cliché to say, but grieving is about the dead, it's about the living. People don't mourn because they feel bad for the deceased, they do it because they miss having them around. Because they miss the emotional connection they had with them.

You can call that selfish if you want, but it's what it means to be human. We feel, and when we lose, we feel bad.

[seraphim]

It's a learned behaviour.

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 09:33 am
It's a learned behaviour.
Then how did this behavior start originally?

[rosa-rl]

Emotions are deeply a part of us. As part of our development they are what bound us together in groups to survive. Love and passion are necessary for us to continue to exist - and I do not mean just sexual love but rather the deep bonds between individuals.

Hate, too, is protective. Out of hate we defend the survival of our group, of which we are part and therefore also defend our own individual existence.

Therefore neither of these basic emotions - Love and Hate - which are the basis of all other more complex emotions - are selfish but rather very deeply tied to our collective existence and the possibility of being able to attain socialism or communism.

The pain of losing someone within our social group is deeply natural as are the feelings that often crop of of 'how could I have done something different'.

And its not just humans, dogs have been known to mourn the loss of their caretaker - to moap around for weeks looking for the missing person and crying in the way that dogs cry.

I have seen cats also show emotion and distress. One of my kitty-babbies will cry inconsolably if the door to my room is close and then once he is in curl up on my lap or chest and pur in delight. This is not because I am the one that feeds him - in fact I am not - my partner takes care of that yet I am the one he follows from room to room.

These animals also have a social existence in which they are tied to the survival of those that they love. It is true that under the current conditions we do not tend to live in small bands that are very Dependant on the individual members any more - but the emotions forged in our development continue and in many ways continue to drive forward our development.

It has also been shown that humans need contact with other humans in order to thrive and grow. It is not too hard to see from that losing one of those other humans would inevitably cause distress.

[Dr.Pepper]

I never cry when people die. When I die I won't cry either.

[che's long lost daughter]

How can you cry when you are already dead?

All emotions are controlled by a certain part of our brain called the hypothalamus. So pretty much, feeling sad is also like breathing because everything that our body does, all its functions are controlled by the brain.

[AGITprop]

Originally posted by che's long lost [email protected] 27, 2007 12:08 pm
How can you cry when you are already dead?

All emotions are controlled by a certain part of our brain called the hypothalamus. So pretty much, feeling sad is also like breathing because everything that our body does, all its functions are controlled by the brain.
i dont know, but i think he was joking. Ease up

[Module]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2007 08:12 pm
When I die I won't cry either.
Neither.

[Module]

Agreed, rosa-rl.
Something I hear people say, as an 'argument' against communism is that people are naturally selfish - and they back it up by saying "The only times human beings are ever altruistic is when they want to make themselves feel better,".

Why is it 'Human beings are 'altrustic' because otherwise they feel bad' and not 'Human beings feel bad because they are 'altruistic''?
If human beings didn't feel such incredible remorse when a loved one died, and if they truly just looked after themselves and nobody else, then their 'group' would truly be in peril.
Human beings are social animals, and the survival of their group is essential to the survival of themselves.
The feeling of pain when a loved one dies is a trait favoured by natural selection. We need other human beings around. Just like we feel pain when somebody hurts us, when we are tired, hungry, cold, we all experience negative feelings because we have certain needs, such as the need for food, warmth, safety and social interaction that are vital for our existence.

I've always thought human beings are so sweet. :)

[Lynx]

If you don't cry how can you experience grief?
As something less intense?
As something to be avoided?

Maybe crying for the loss of a loved one expresses how much that person meant to us. We don't always express how much someone means to us when they are living.

[The Grey Blur]

All emotions are controlled by a certain part of our brain called the hypothalamus

And I'm pretty sure you're quite wrong. The hypothalamus controls the secretion of hormones, whether directly or indirectly i can't remember.

[The Grey Blur]

and to answer the original question...i've actually forgot it during my biological conquest

oh death, yeah well, sure what can ye do?

[Marsella]

I have been to half a dozen funerals of immediate relatives in the past two years.

I didn't cry once.

Does that make me unselfish or an uncaring cold c**t?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Please do not use a word for female genitalia as a word of self verbal-abuse, comrade.

I know you class yourself as female, but that is just one more reason not to do this.

[spartan]

Please do not use a word for female genitalia as a word of self verbal-abuse, comrade.
Yeah but Martov didnt mean it in a sexist manner so it isnt that offensive.

People use words for male genitalia as a word for verbal abuse all the time and that, depending on the context of course, isnt really offensive (Though i do agree that the saying of those words is more often than not with the intent purpose to offend the person at which those words are being directed at).

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Spartan, I do not agree, and since I am moderator here, I will make this point and enforce it in this section of the board.

There is no need for it, and it demeans women.

Men and women are oppressed in different ways, so your point about words for male genitalia is irrelevant.

[spartan]

Well i suppose that we will have to agree to disagree on this one Rosa as i think that those certain words are only offensive when they are placed in an offensive context.

The way i see it is words like "c**t" on there own are just that: words.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Like it or lump it, I aim to enforce it in this part of the site -- until or unless I am voted out.

[spartan]

Like it or lump it, I aim to enforce in this part of the site -- until or unless I am voted out.
Well you are the boss on this part of the forum so i understand if you dont like those certain words being used here.

Though i dont always agree with it.

[Marsella]

Sorry Rosa, I will refrain from using the word in the future. :)

I used the word for its alliteration effect.

I suppose I should have used 'uncaring cold cock.' :P

[Black Cross]

Let's try and stay on topic here. If you want to debate whether or not using a crass slang for vagina is discriminatory, there are plenty of other threads to do so in.

With regards to the original debate:

I don't think that crying is a behavior that is learned, since many children come out of the womb doing so. Rather, I believe that whether we choose to cry or not is what's learned. If you grow up in an environment in which crying is accepted rather than condemned, then you will be more likely to cry when there is a death in the family, and vice-versa. Just because you don't cry when a family member dies, doesn't mean you don't respect or care for that person, as comrade martov suggested. It just means you deal with your emotions in a different way. I, for one, haven't cried for any of the relatives who have passed away, yet I have a lot of respect for most of them.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

It's not a quesrtion of being the 'boss'; I was elected to moderate this thread and to use my judgement to do so.

So I am.

Bosses are not elected.

[Module]

Originally posted by Rosa [email protected] 30, 2007 10:57 am
Bosses are not elected.
Yes they are!

[w0lf]

It's just a natural instinct for me I guess, and It sucks ass.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Des:


Yes they are!

Only by other bosses.

[anarchopaul]

I think it is because of selfish reasons, because you don't have this person anymore around you, not because the person you loved is in pain or something.

[Awful Reality]

Physically, there's no real reason for crying. It doesn't do much.

Emotionally, it's an uncontrollable, irrational response. We loved the person, and we have to- in a period of seconds- adjust to the fact that they don't exist anymore.

It's a hard question to answer. It's a hard sensation to feel.

[gilhyle]

Seems to me crying sometimes achieves quite a lot......usually good things

[Dystisis]

I think crying originated from a need of people helping each other out. Much like yawning has been speculated to be a sort of "wake up" call to other animals in a group (groups with look-outs at night tend to survive better).

It is also, of course, quite prominent in todays culture, so it has developed as a popular phenomenon. As Gilhyle said, one can achieve things today from crying, because of what the act of crying implies (person in need of help or social comfort).

As to dying, it is of course a part of nature's process. Crying is linked to a range of emotions, one of which happens to be the feeling of loosing something valuable.

[Awful Reality]

Oh sure, but as physical response, it doesn't do anything. Crying is good for making your eyes moist, but it's not great at making you feel a shit better.

[INDK]

Well, why wouldn't I cry? It's not illogical. You care for them, and losing them for the rest of your life can bring to you a level of sadness. There are some people in life that we really have emotional dependences on, or strong emotional ties to - losing anything dear to you, really - brings sadness, sad thoughts, ya know. It's natural, really.

[queerpaganarchist]

To be honest, I haven't cried over the passing of a loved one since elementary school. That may just be because of the particular relationship I've had with those people, which wasn't particularly close even though I did care for them a lot...

But as far as selfishness goes, I'm perfectly settled and comfortable with the fact that there will be times in my life where I act selfishly. It will become uncomfortable only when it can be demonstrated that my own selfishness is having a negative impact on others... and in the case of crying over the deceased, it does not.

[gilhyle]

Oh sure, but as physical response, it doesn't do anything. Crying is good for making your eyes moist, but it's not great at making you feel a shit better.

Well that is not my experience. Physically it can untie knots inside you. Psychologically it can purge the unresolved tension. It works as a call for comfort...and more generally it seems to me that the advice that its good to grieve is glib but true.

Capitalism emphasises the need to end grieving, death is an embarrassment to the love of money and the commodification of life, capitalist societies gives only the vaguest encouragement to begin grieving and my experience is the the best thing to do is say 'to hell with that', Im gonna cry, wear black, feel miserable, look drammatic.....it all works: you come out the other end of it having said goodbye.

Even when someone is going away I like to say goodbye. When they go away for ever, I definitely want to say goodbye, loud and clear.

[Awful Reality]

Well that is not my experience. Physically it can untie knots inside you. Psychologically it can purge the unresolved tension. It works as a call for comfort...and more generally it seems to me that the advice that its good to grieve is glib but true.

Capitalism emphasises the need to end grieving, death is an embarrassment to the love of money and the commodification of life, capitalist societies gives only the vaguest encouragement to begin grieving and my experience is the the best thing to do is say 'to hell with that', Im gonna cry, wear black, feel miserable, look drammatic.....it all works: you come out the other end of it having said goodbye.

Even when someone is going away I like to say goodbye. When they go away for ever, I definitely want to say goodbye, loud and clear.

Granted. Definitely.
But what I'm saying is, why, specifically, crying? What is the advantage over, say, chattering- as a physical response?

[BurnTheOliveTree]

I expect it has some psycho-metaphorical value. It's like a release thing, letting pain out of oneself. Chattering is too much like a normal conversation, nothing marks it out as special.

-Alex

[gilhyle]

Granted. Definitely.
But what I'm saying is, why, specifically, crying? What is the advantage over, say, chattering- as a physical response?

OK, well my answer to that is because more structured methods of vocal lament as a structured social method of mourning have been eliminated by capitalism. Crying is what is left, the isolated individual remnant of what was once a social practice.

[Awful Reality]

OK, well my answer to that is because more structured methods of vocal lament as a structured social method of mourning have been eliminated by capitalism. Crying is what is left, the isolated individual remnant of what was once a social practice.

It is ridiculous to assert that capitalism is in any way associated with physio-emotional responses to loss. I hope you were kidding.

[LavenderMenace]

Much like yawning has been speculated to be a sort of "wake up" call to other animals in a group
I’m pretty certain we yawn to replace a lack of oxygen in the blood. People associated yawning with boredom, exhaustion, etc. before this was known.


Crying is good for making your eyes moist, but it's not great at making you feel a shit better.


Yea, I usually have a huge headache after a good cry – though if it is an emotional cry I feel purged afterwards and less heavy...I don't know why I'd cry if it wasn't emotional though.file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Owner/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif

But, back to the original question:

But all of us who are still alive. crying and complaining . "WHY!!!!! OH WHY?????" are just pretty much selfish.

People deal with death in so many ways - many of them selfish but, as long as they are not negatively affecting those alive around them, I don't see the 'selfishness' part of crying and wanting them back. They won't come back; they're dead - your crying doesn't affect them and if it makes you feel better then feel better!

[gilhyle]

Not joking at all. Human emotions have a clear history closely associated with social structures. The history of grieving and the treatment of death in particular takes a striking turn with the development of capitalism and there has probably never been a society where the rich and the population of imperialist countries valued their own lives with such extreme sensitivity as today. It is on the contrary naive to thnk that human emotions are an historical constant.

[Awful Reality]

Not joking at all. Human emotions have a clear history closely associated with social structures. The history of grieving and the treatment of death in particular takes a striking turn with the development of capitalism and there has probably never been a society where the rich and the population of imperialist countries valued their own lives with such extreme sensitivity as today. It is on the contrary naive to thnk that human emotions are an historical constant.

I should think that when a loved one has died one would be entirely absorbed in their grief- that is that they will be unaffected by factors social, economic, etc.

Human history as we know it is a blip in evolutionary history. We have probably evolved very little since anarchism was replaced by feudalism and casteism- any way in which we have must be entirely slight.

[gilhyle]

Our attitudes to death have transformed radically over history and our process of grieving has also. There are some good books on the topic - hypostasisation (big word misspelt and probably misused ) of human behaviours is an illusory appearance of the dominant mode of production.

[redarmyfaction38]

I would like to think that most of you have cried, felt very sad when someone dear and close to you has died. Or maybe just the thought of having someone you love die makes you sad, worries you or brings a tear to your eyes.

I have thought about my parents passing away. and yeah, I feel a bit scared and sad. "what am i going to do?" "how am i going to take it?"

But then once I really think about death and what it entails for that person. It can't be all that bad for them. they get to rest FINALLY! away from all this bullshit. hopefully they lived their life to the fullest.

But all of us who are still alive. crying and complaining . "WHY!!!!! OH WHY?????" are just pretty much selfish. we are upset that they are gone. and wont be WITH US anymore. is not like we are sad and afraid that they are going to have a "bad afterlife" or because "being dead Hurts them!"

so do you guys think it has more to do with being selfish? than genuinely sad for them?
yes, grief is a selfish emotion, it is about what we've lost rather than about what has happened to them.
it doesn't matter if you are religious or not, either way, death is a release from the human condition of struggling to survive and understand.
if, like myself, you believe that we are doomed to relive our lives over and over until we are released from the wheel, death is a matter for celebration rather than grief, either you've made it or you get another go at getting it right:).