Bye bye Belgium?

[spartan]

I did'nt know where to put this article from the Guardian newspaper so i hope that this is the right section?

Anyway read the article in the link below and tell me your thoughts on Belgium potentially breaking up.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,2209988,00.html
I personally believe that the Dutch speaking regions of Belgium, known as Flanders, should go to the Nederlands whilst the French speaking regions of Belgium, known as Wallonia, should go to France in the event of a break up of Belgium.

The union that is Belgium seems to be pointless economically as Flanders, who are doing much better economically than Wallonia, want to cut there losses and either get independence or go into union with there Dutch speaking brothers and sisters in the Nederlands.

What is your opinion on this matter?

I personally believe that this is'nt a way to further divide the Proletariat as the two distinct regions will most likely go into union with one of their bigger neighbours (Flanders goes to the Nederlands whilst Wallonia goes to France) who speak the same language as them and have the same culture as them.

If this is the case then it is in effect getting rid of a country that is pretty pointless which is'nt a bad thing IMO as it serves no real purpose for either of the two communities and it will get rid of all the problems that alot of people in the two communities have with each other.

[Cheung Mo]

Not a bad idea, but my sympathy certainly isn't with the Flemish here: They want to strip thousands of Francophones in suburban Brussels of their language rights and I really can't understand why.

[piet11111]

the end of belgium would give the netherlands and france loads of fresh leftists while their governments would not get much stronger.

needless to say i would love to welcome our belgian comrades into the dutch proletariat :wub:

[Comrade Rage]

What's the Vlaams Belang's view on it? If they think this is good (they are Flemish separatists) than it can't be good for the left there.

I wonder what Rakunin has to say about this.

[syndicat]

the problem is that Brussels is multi-lingual. i suppose that Brussels and its suburbs could be made an independent city-state.

[Wanted Man]

It's completely unpractical. Firstly, there's Brussels. It's in Flemish territory, but it's bilingual, and communities around it are French-speaking (if I recall correctly). There is also a strip of land south of the Dutch province of Limburg which is part of a Flemish province, but separated from the rest of Flanders. Then there is the German-speaking area in the east.

CRUM, the VB want an independent Flanders with close ties to the Netherlands, but not as a part of the Netherlands. Some nazis in both the Netherlands and Flanders want a "Dietsland" or "Greater Netherlands". I think some people in this thread should do a bit more research into what they're talking about, because it's certainly nothing to do with the revolutionary left.

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by Van Binsbergen+November 13, 2007 07:52 pm--> (Van Binsbergen @ November 13, 2007 07:52 pm) CRUM, the VB want an independent Flanders with close ties to the Netherlands, but not as a part of the Netherlands. Some nazis in both the Netherlands and Flanders want a "Dietsland" or "Greater Netherlands". I think some people in this thread should do a bit more research into what they're talking about, because it's certainly nothing to do with the revolutionary left. [/b]
Thanks for clearing that up, Van Binsbergen.


Van Binsbergen
I think some people in this thread should do a bit more research into what they're talking about, because it's certainly nothing to do with the revolutionary left.
I've always wondered why revolutionary leftists seem to be so caught up in supporting secessions and seperations. No matter what the flag is, if capitalism is still the system in place, than that flag symbolizes my enemy.

If anything, squandering efforts on petty-nationalist things such as secession/dissolution/etc. hurts our cause.

[Wanted Man]

Especially when said separatism is almost exclusively the area of the extreme right, as it is in Flanders. In the end, the national question will still be an issue, but that doesn't mean that all far-right separatisms should be accepted at this point. The Flanders that the VB envision is not a place that I would want to live in.

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by Van [email protected] 13, 2007 08:05 pm
The Flanders that the VB envision is not a place that I would want to live in.
...or near for that matter, as such a far-right state would probably build up it's military so as to expand a 'greater' 'Dietsland'.

[Wanted Man]

Here is an article from the Workers Party of Belgium on the subject:

http://www.solidaire.org/scripts/article.p...BPBD&obid=35505 (http://www.solidaire.org/scripts/article.phtml?section=A3AAAABPBD&obid=35505)

By the way, the concept of "Greater Netherlands" is pretty confusing in itself, because these irredentists differ on what the extent of its borders should actually be. The most commonly expressed idea is of the Netherlands and Flanders. A more extremist view includes all of Belgium and Luxembourg, like before 1830. Some even include parts of France south of Flanders that have Dutch roots. For example, Dunkerque, the town of WWII fame, has a Germanic-language background that can be seen in its name (Dunkirk in English, Duinkerken in Dutch).

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by Van [email protected] 13, 2007 08:20 pm
Here is an article from the Workers Party of Belgium on the subject:

http://www.solidaire.org/scripts/article.p...BPBD&obid=35505 (http://www.solidaire.org/scripts/article.phtml?section=A3AAAABPBD&obid=35505)
Excellent article. Thanks for all the insight on the issue.

[piet11111]

very good article van binsbergen i obviously was very ignorant of the reasons behind this unique situation and im glad i am now corrected.

but what are the chances of belgium's survival ?

[Wanted Man]

Well, the territories of neither Flanders nor Walloon are consistent. There's Brussels, there's part of a Flemish province in the middle of Walloon, there's the German-speaking community... in other words, there's no straight line separating Dutch and French. The nationalism itself is part of the problem: for example, out of Brussels, a Wallonian can't vote for a Flemish party or visa versa. So they're going to have to get it figured out some way or another, IMO.

To illustrate, here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Belgium_provinces_regions_striped.png) is Wikipedia's map that outlines the divide. Not a straight line at all.

Of course, the true fact is that Belgium does not exist. It's a lie by the elite liberal media:

http://zapatopi.net/belgium/

[piet11111]

that map reminds me of germany during the cold war with east and west seperated and berlin as a cherry on top.

[spartan]

It's completely unpractical.
Many people consider Belgium unnecessary and unpractical as there has never been a Belgian people (in the true sense of the word) nor a Belgian language and culture to unite them as a distinct "people".

The country is split into three: Dutch speakers in the north, French speakers in the south and German speakers in the east who as you can see all have there own languages and cultures which are identical to at least one of these regions neighbours (Flanders and the Nederlands, Wallonia and France and the German speaking areas and Germany).

Now all these territories border countries which speak the same language as them so why should'nt we let them become apart of those countries which speak the same language as them and have the same culture?

Firstly, there's Brussels. It's in Flemish territory, but it's bilingual, and communities around it are French-speaking (if I recall correctly).
That is a problem which will be hard to overcome.

Perhaps France and the Nederlands will jointly govern it or it will become an international city state? (perhaps even governed by the EU or UN as Belgium has all these organizations headquarters in there country?).

There is also a strip of land south of the Dutch province of Limburg which is part of a Flemish province, but separated from the rest of Flanders.
If Flanders becomes apart of the Nederlands then that seperated strip of Flemish land wont matter as it will be connected to the rest of Flanders through the Nederlands thus making it unseperated.

Then there is the German-speaking area in the east.
I think that those areas border Germany so as they are German speaking why not let them become apart of Germany?

Perhaps Luxembourg (which i think is a German majority country) should go to Germany as well?

They way i see it is that it gets rid of unneeded countries which, if still there, needlessly divide the Proletariat into non-existent nationalities.

Plus the break up of the unneeded Belgium will get rid of many of the problems which the peoples who make up Belgium have with each other.

[An archist]

It's a pseudo-problem that has been created by the Flemish right-wing, they want this because Flanders is the richer part and Wallonia is the poorer part.
Historically this used to be the other way round and the flemish proletariat was oppressed by the walloon bourgeoisie. That's where the flemish movement has it's roots. It's this historical oppression that the vlaams belang (flemish extreme-right) and nva (flemish right) still use, they say wallonia is oppressing flanders because they are a (slight) minority, but have the same representation in the federal government. They also say walloons are lazy and are just good for getting flemish money.
A majority of people want to keep belgium as it is, but a small, loud minority of flemish want to separate the country.
The reason why this will never happen is the capital brussels, it is vital for both parts of the country, is situated in flanders, but has a majority of french-speaking people.

Personally I don't really care what happens, since it will have little to no impact on everyday life for most people.

EDIT, by the way Spartan, the german speaking belgians are probably the least of all keen on separating the country, the majority really wants to keep being belgians

[RedAnarchist]

At least people won't need to remember any famous Belgians any more :P

[An archist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 03:53 pm
At least people won't need to remember any famous Belgians any more :P
No, instead we get to remember famous flemish who collaborated with the nazis ;)

[RedAnarchist]

Originally posted by An archist+November 15, 2007 03:57 pm--> (An archist @ November 15, 2007 03:57 pm)
[email protected] 15, 2007 03:53 pm
At least people won't need to remember any famous Belgians any more :P
No, instead we get to remember famous flemish who collaborated with the nazis ;) [/b]
Sorry, my comment above was a joke, but didn't know that.

[Devrim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 03:32 pm

It's completely unpractical.
Many people consider Belgium unnecessary and unpractical as there has never been a Belgian people (in the true sense of the word) nor a Belgian language and culture to unite them as a distinct "people".

The country is split into three: Dutch speakers in the north, French speakers in the south and German speakers in the east who as you can see all have there own languages and cultures which are identical to at least one of these regions neighbours (Flanders and the Nederlands, Wallonia and France and the German speaking areas and Germany).

Now all these territories border countries which speak the same language as them so why should'nt we let them become apart of those countries which speak the same language as them and have the same culture?

Firstly, there's Brussels. It's in Flemish territory, but it's bilingual, and communities around it are French-speaking (if I recall correctly).
That is a problem which will be hard to overcome.

Perhaps France and the Nederlands will jointly govern it or it will become an international city state? (perhaps even governed by the EU or UN as Belgium has all these organizations headquarters in there country?).

There is also a strip of land south of the Dutch province of Limburg which is part of a Flemish province, but separated from the rest of Flanders.
If Flanders becomes apart of the Nederlands then that seperated strip of Flemish land wont matter as it will be connected to the rest of Flanders through the Nederlands thus making it unseperated.

Then there is the German-speaking area in the east.
I think that those areas border Germany so as they are German speaking why not let them become apart of Germany?

Perhaps Luxembourg (which i think is a German majority country) should go to Germany as well?

They way i see it is that it gets rid of unneeded countries which, if still there, needlessly divide the Proletariat into non-existent nationalities.

Plus the break up of the unneeded Belgium will get rid of many of the problems which the peoples who make up Belgium have with each other.
What on Earth is all of this nonsense?
Are you trying to organise a new concert of Europe?
It is not the job of anarchists* to organise the partition of small countries.
Devrim
*I think you claim to be one.

[spartan]

No, instead we get to remember famous flemish who collaborated with the nazis ;)
Walloons are also guilty!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rexism

[An archist]

Of course, but a lot of 'heroes' from the flemish movement were collaborators.
Also, look up 'flamenpolitik'

[Dimentio]

If Flanders goes to the Netherlands, that part which is separated would also go the Netherlands.

Brussels could become an autonomous city-state directly administrated by the EU.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Belgium_provinces_regions_striped.png

[RedAnarchist]

What do the blue bits symbolise?

[spartan]

What do the blue bits symbolise?
German speaking areas.

[Wanted Man]

Think, spartan, think! Cultural and linguistic integrity does not equal nationality. That kind of crap is straying into the area of far right irredentism. It's like saying that there should be a Greater England including Wales and Scotland, because they all have the same language and culture.*

Anyway, "we" can't "let them" do anything, because "we" are not in the power to do so. Again, it's purely the area of the nationalist bourgeoisie. It only serves to distract from the class struggle. I mean, what the fuck, do you think a VB-led Flanders would be better, just because it would have more cultural and linguistic integrity? Adding the territories to the Netherlands and France is just completely nonsensical, but I'll get to that below.

*The Netherlands and Flanders are NOT exactly the same when it comes to culture. Flanders shares characteristics with the Catholic southern Netherlands (Brabant and Limburg), but it also borders the southern province of Zeeland which is very protestant. But someone who lives in Amsterdam (liberal tradition), Groningen (secular, socialist tradition) or the central and eastern Netherlands (conservative protestant tradition), is still a total foreigner in Flanders in just about every aspect.

Your talk of cultural and linguistic integrity in the lowlands also ignores Frisia: it shares a lot with the German East Frisia and parts of Denmark. However, the other territories that used to belong to Frisia have long since been part of the Dutch and German spheres. The current Dutch province of Frisia is also going this way slowly. How does that fit into your theory of a "Greater Netherlands" including Flanders?

Seriously, at least make some effort to study the matter at hand. Along with Leo, I also wonder since when anarchists take part in drawing imaginary lines of irredentist entities along with the neo-fascists. Speaking of which, I bet German neo-nazis would love to add Luxembourg to Grossdeutschland!

[spartan]

Think, spartan, think! Cultural and linguistic integrity does not equal nationality. That kind of crap is straying into the area of far right irredentism. It's like saying that there should be a Greater England including Wales and Scotland, because they all have the same language and culture.*
Wales and Scotland dont have the same culture and language as England!

Anyway i do understand what you mean and i can see your point.

I mean, what the fuck, do you think a VB-led Flanders would be better, just because it would have more cultural and linguistic integrity?
An independent Flanders does'nt have to be Fascist led (though i know that the Fascist independent parties are very popular among your average Flemish person which is obviously a risk as they could get into power legitimately if Flanders ever did seperate and Belgium dissolved).

How does that fit into your theory of a "Greater Netherlands" including Flanders?
I have never talked of a "greater Nederlands" as such (though i can understand that Flanders becoming apart of the Nederlands would be seen as a move towards a "greater Nederlands").

I have just never seen the point in Belgium especially when so many of it's own citizens dont see the point in it either!

I just thought that alot of the problems that these two communities have with each other would be solved and/or dissapear if they seperated peacefully that's all.

I have always thought of Belgium as a marriage which both partners want to end but for some reason never get to the actual point of ending it?

I think that helping to get rid of unnecessary things before the revolution could help us as when the revolution starts, and say Belgium still exists, there could be trouble between the Flemish and Walloons which might not have happened if they had seperated earlier.

So in a way Belgium dissolving could mean that we on the left wont have to face this problem when the revolution starts?

[dty06]

I can never understand why something so trivial as language is always such a factor in splits like this. Let people speak whatever the hell they want to. Not entirely sure what to do about official papers and parliament/government meetings, but I'm sure something could be worked out. What makes anyone so certain that all the people in these areas want to go to The Netherlands or France? Just because I speak English does not mean I want to become part of England (though I would rather live there than where I do now). There is still the factor of the people, which is what government should always be about instead of such trivial things like partisan politics.

[Tower of Bebel]

Damned, I missed this thread. People, read the artical on socialistworld.net, I posted it in the newswire subforum today. Socialistworld.net (http://www.socialistworld.net/eng/2007/11/13belgia.html).

To reply on the Guardian: the foto shown is one of a bunch of fascists called NSV. A small, seperatisit and marginal group. Look at the tricolor on their hats, it's the tricolor of the German 2nd Empire used by many fascisits in Germany, belgium and holland. This foto is obviously pure deception.

In short, I must say that the conflict raging between the Flemish and Walloons is one of the bourgeoisie, not of 2 peoples. This conflict has a tendency to rage everytime when there are social or economic problems. Why do you say? Because it's pure nationalism and by nationalism the bourgeoisie is setting up the working class against each other of course! The bourgeosie is constantly attacking the working class and uses nationalist frases to cover up the fact that they cannot please the Belgian working class at all. The workers must endure another neoliberal attack and therefor they (both the Flemish and Walloon bourgeoisie) cover up their plans with this nationalist conflict.

Belgium is'nt falling apart yet. The Walloons (and this also means the bourgeoisie) don't want to. There are only 3 parties in favor of the independance of Flanders: Vlaams Belang (VB), Nieuw-Vlaamse Alliantie (N-VA) and Spirit. Vlaams Belang doesn't want to reign unless it can form a government by it's own, and the other 2 are small parties with less than 10% of the votes. There is only one party in favor of the independance of Wallonia: Front nationale (FN) (very, very small and not too popular but still a facist threat to the workers, it's the little brother of the French Front Nationale of which Le Pen is the leader).

The problems is that the EU passed a law which protects the rights of minorities. If Flanders becomes an independant country and if it wants to join the EU than it will have to respect this law. The Wallonian minority in Flanders will then even get more rights than it has today in Dutch-speaking Belgium... And it is just these kind of rights that the seperatist parties want to tackle... so no... Flanders will not become independant unless the Flemish and Walloons want to.

EDIT:

Serpent, the map you've showed doesn't make things as easy as it looks (or: reality is even more difficult than you would think). The part that is separated from Flanders, called Voeren has been given to the Flemish bourgeoisie instead of Moeskroen, which is a Flemish region almost totally French-speaking. Moeskroen is the part of Wallonia separated on the left. Now, both Voeren and Moeskroen have a Flemish minority and a Wallonian majority, just like in Brussels and the district of Brussels-Halle-Vilvoorde. The Flemish bourgeoisie is bullying the Wallonians (e.g. they cannot receive any official documents in French) to get them out or to persuade them to learn Dutch (which of course is a seldom case since nobody would like to adapt when their surroundings are hostile to your presence).

Btw, Spartan, don't try to guess which part of the low countries could go to when Belgium splits, because you obviously haven't even made a look at the demands of the inhabitants.

[Tower of Bebel]

For those who can read French or Dutch, the Belgian ICC (IKS/CCI) also has a good article on the current conflict between the Dutch-speaking and French-speaking borugeoisie.


Originally posted by solidaire
To confront these problems we will need strong and unified trade unions and a class-conscious working class.

The counter-offensive has started. This week saw the start of very broad campaign « Save solidarity ». It was initiated by hundreds of trade union organisers, who got the support of many well known artists, academics, journalists, writers. In two days, the petition has gathered over 15.000 signatures (1). The two big trade unions have given it their full support.

The two big trade unions continue to declare their opposition to a split in labour market policy, national wage negotiations and social security. They correctly see any of these as a fast track to losing all workers’ gains of the past.

There is no doubt that this initiative can contribute to radically change the climate and create a wave of solidarity that even political leaders will have to take into account.

This article doesn't mention the fact that this petition is accompanied with Belgian nationalism (which still exists), and also the trade unions lack the initiative to do something against the bourgeoisie (since the TU leaders do nothing but betrayel).

But, indeed, many workers of trade unions are fighting for solidarity, and the bourgeoisie can expect some resistance from the Belgian workers.

EDIT: Don't forget that the Walloons also suffered from the French-speaking bourgeoisie after the French invasion of 1792 and the Belgian revolution of 1830. In Wallonia the people spoke "Wallonian" which is a dialect or language dating back from Charles the Great and even before his reign. It's a bit like French and therefor most people forget the Walloons lost their original language. After the french and Belgian revolutions this dialect was repressed by the French-speaking bourgeoisie.